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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID (Read 19470 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #58 - 12/01/07 at 03:29:08
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I know this is a King's Indian thread, but my own experience with the Sicilian Najdorf is pertinent here.  I once played the White side of a Sicilian Najdorf against a club player (around 1700 USCF) and the game went more than twenty moves deep into theory.  At the end of the theoretical line (which I later found in some one-volume book on the opening) my opponent made a howler and I won easily.  That was just about the last time I played 1.e4 as White.

Every know and again I play a really interesting game against a titled player, and discover in the postmortem (or later) that we were following some famous game or analysis for twenty moves or more.  However, my most common experience against strong players is that we are on our own theoretically before ten moves have been played.
  
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knightmare
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #57 - 11/28/07 at 10:25:22
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Meat wrote on 11/27/07 at 17:07:40:
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However, IMHO for club players things become more and more difficult recently, simply because of the amount of theory.


I am a club player, but I've never encountered anyone who has wheeled out 25 moves of theory against me. I don't think there are many players under 2000 elo who know that much theory. And even if they do, a good understanding of typical positions will most likely prove to be worth a lot more than knowing long variations.


Hmm ok, my definition of a club player is <= 2200.
Anyway, especially in these times of computer databases I more or less frequently run into youngsters with about 1900 - 2000 German Rating (may be equal to ELO) in the 5th league where I play, that "blitz" the first 15 - 20 moves in regular OTB games. There may be some special preparation (I'm playing more or less the same openings for the last 20 years) against me, but similar things are happening with my colleques in the team.
As for the KID, IMHO the game can objectively be over after these 15-20 moves, in a 4-pawns-attack, Samisch or a classical variation. Knowledge of plans and positions is nice. If you're not stranded in a completely lost position. Maybe I'm getting old, but that made me change to something more positonal and less sharp.
But lets be honest. At this "patzer" level (for me also below 2200) much more important than the objective value of an opening is that you like the positons that you get with the openings you play.  Smiley. I still have my - by far - best score in the "harmless" Ruy Lopez Exchange with 9-1-0, which I considered as a more or less automatic win when I was young  Wink
  

ELO 2060. Corr.: 2190. Which casts doubts if I ever knew what I was doing. At least on the Board.
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #56 - 11/27/07 at 17:07:40
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However, IMHO for club players things become more and more difficult recently, simply because of the amount of theory.


I am a club player, but I've never encountered anyone who has wheeled out 25 moves of theory against me. I don't think there are many players under 2000 elo who know that much theory. And even if they do, a good understanding of typical positions will most likely prove to be worth a lot more than knowing long variations.
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #55 - 11/27/07 at 13:13:32
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The KID is just sound. I never thought the small crisis around the Bayonett-Variation would last long, was just a matter of time until the antidote was found. Radjas' results IMHO indicate a big "comeback" of the KID.
However, IMHO for club players things become more and more difficult recently, simply because of the amount of theory. Theory is developing in all openings, but in the KID its simply horrific. If you only look at the classical, there are at least 4 lines where black has to constantly be "up to date", new moves arise around move 25 or even later.
Recently AFAIK 3 books have been published in the 4-pawns-attack, just to mention another variation. And I think every KID player knows how dangerous that line can be if you're not "equipped".
So: Theoretical problems in the KID? Not at all. Practical problems: Sure. At least if you're lazybones...
  

ELO 2060. Corr.: 2190. Which casts doubts if I ever knew what I was doing. At least on the Board.
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #54 - 11/14/07 at 13:54:36
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Stigma wrote on 11/13/07 at 14:33:56:
btw. regarding Keene; if Wikipedia is to be trusted this sounds impressive enough:

Quote:
"Keene represented England for nearly two decades in international team events, beginning with the 1966 Chess Olympiad in Havana at age 18. He followed with the next seven straight Olympiads: Lugano 1968 (winning an individual bronze medal), Siegen 1970, Skopje 1972, Nice 1974, Haifa 1976 (team bronze medal), Buenos Aires 1978, and La Valletta 1980 [...] And he played four times for England at the European Team Championships: Bath 1973, Moscow 1977, Skara 1980 (team bronze medal, and individual gold medal for best score on his board) and Plovdiv 1983."


He also won several international tournaments, and one British Championship. Speaking of antipathies, it looks like Keene did as much as anybody for british chess, yet a lot of people in the english-speaking chess world are critical of him. Why is this?

Probably because the whole English 80s GM generation continuously had rows with one another and had a fondness of bashing others in public. Just read some of Short's recent interviews and columns.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #53 - 11/14/07 at 13:28:02
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Keene latched onto Kasparov to the point of sycophancy, didn't he?  That was my perception, anyhow, poorly informed as it may have been.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #52 - 11/14/07 at 00:53:46
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Bibs wrote on 11/13/07 at 06:46:28:
Keene was apparently a very decent strength when he achieved his title.

So was Westerinen, he earned the title in the 70's.
  

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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #51 - 11/13/07 at 17:07:14
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Pimp: Other uses

"A pimp can also mean "a despicable person".[4] In the first years of the 21st century, however, a new meaning of the word has emerged in the form of a transitive verb which means "to decorate" or "to gussy." The instigator for this new definition stems from Pimp My Ride, an MTV television show. Although the new paid homage to hip-hop culture, it has now entered common, even mainstream commercial, use.[5]"

Original source material found at:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pimp

I argue that Keene has taken and refined the art (science?!) of pimping and has applied its inner mechanics and philosphies to chess publishing and playing.  Did he or did he not have a Fischer-Spaasky book on the market practically before the event was even over?

Yo! Yo! Yo!  What's the dealio? 

Pimp my position.

  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Bibs
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #50 - 11/13/07 at 16:07:56
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Drkodos - Ray Keene a pimp?! Bizarre.
Like Harvey Keitel in Taxi Driver? But lardier?  Pray tell...

Guess such old GMs as Gurg just enjoy the game and are not bothered by any Arpad Elo sums. It doesnt matter.  Like people doing martial arts and not worrying about belts or competition. Is entirely possible for the love of a game or pursuit I feel.
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #49 - 11/13/07 at 15:53:11
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Stigma wrote on 11/13/07 at 14:09:20:
Now, I realize it is very bad form to insult an old and wise GM, and also a famous inventor in the opening, but I couldn't resist... Guess who?

http://www.fide.com/ratings/card.phtml?event=13600184

Anyone lower? Smiley

(And still he loves the game so much, he just keeps on playing. Splendid!)


This is very sad. It's even sadder when you see these over-the-hill grandmasters getting swindled by opponents who obviously have no idea what they are doing and moreover have no respect whatsoever for their immense understanding. They know they should give up competition, as losing to patzers is clearly torture, but chess is their life...
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #48 - 11/13/07 at 15:40:41
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My opinion is that most people are not fond of pimps.
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #47 - 11/13/07 at 15:34:17
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One short answer might be that they had met him.

It seems there are numerous long answers to that short question. Short of asking around, check out basically any issue of Kingpin.

  
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Stigma
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #46 - 11/13/07 at 14:33:56
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btw. regarding Keene; if Wikipedia is to be trusted this sounds impressive enough:

Quote:
"Keene represented England for nearly two decades in international team events, beginning with the 1966 Chess Olympiad in Havana at age 18. He followed with the next seven straight Olympiads: Lugano 1968 (winning an individual bronze medal), Siegen 1970, Skopje 1972, Nice 1974, Haifa 1976 (team bronze medal), Buenos Aires 1978, and La Valletta 1980 [...] And he played four times for England at the European Team Championships: Bath 1973, Moscow 1977, Skara 1980 (team bronze medal, and individual gold medal for best score on his board) and Plovdiv 1983."


He also won several international tournaments, and one British Championship. Speaking of antipathies, it looks like Keene did as much as anybody for british chess, yet a lot of people in the english-speaking chess world are critical of him. Why is this?
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Stigma
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #45 - 11/13/07 at 14:09:20
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JEH wrote on 11/12/07 at 20:58:57:
Keep going

http://www.fide.com/ratings/card.phtml?event=4104307

Hmm, I wonder who the lowest rated GM is?


Now, I realize it is very bad form to insult an old and wise GM, and also a famous inventor in the opening, but I couldn't resist... Guess who?

http://www.fide.com/ratings/card.phtml?event=13600184

Anyone lower? Smiley

(And still he loves the game so much, he just keeps on playing. Splendid!)
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #44 - 11/13/07 at 06:46:28
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While Keene obviously a scheming, pompous w***er, he was apparently a very decent strength when he achieved his title. At least so someone who was there at that Olympiad told me.

Funny that his mate Tony Buzan btw in quoting him on front cover of one of his dodgy books spelt his name wrong. QC of 'Keane'(sic)-esque proportions.

Back to the thread - antipathy toward KID? Dont get it. Nobody insulted my grandmother, called my pint a poof or anything for playing it.

Next question please .exe...


  
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