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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID (Read 18917 times)
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #58 - 12/01/07 at 03:29:08
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I know this is a King's Indian thread, but my own experience with the Sicilian Najdorf is pertinent here.  I once played the White side of a Sicilian Najdorf against a club player (around 1700 USCF) and the game went more than twenty moves deep into theory.  At the end of the theoretical line (which I later found in some one-volume book on the opening) my opponent made a howler and I won easily.  That was just about the last time I played 1.e4 as White.

Every know and again I play a really interesting game against a titled player, and discover in the postmortem (or later) that we were following some famous game or analysis for twenty moves or more.  However, my most common experience against strong players is that we are on our own theoretically before ten moves have been played.
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #57 - 11/28/07 at 10:25:22
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Meat wrote on 11/27/07 at 17:07:40:
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However, IMHO for club players things become more and more difficult recently, simply because of the amount of theory.


I am a club player, but I've never encountered anyone who has wheeled out 25 moves of theory against me. I don't think there are many players under 2000 elo who know that much theory. And even if they do, a good understanding of typical positions will most likely prove to be worth a lot more than knowing long variations.


Hmm ok, my definition of a club player is <= 2200.
Anyway, especially in these times of computer databases I more or less frequently run into youngsters with about 1900 - 2000 German Rating (may be equal to ELO) in the 5th league where I play, that "blitz" the first 15 - 20 moves in regular OTB games. There may be some special preparation (I'm playing more or less the same openings for the last 20 years) against me, but similar things are happening with my colleques in the team.
As for the KID, IMHO the game can objectively be over after these 15-20 moves, in a 4-pawns-attack, Samisch or a classical variation. Knowledge of plans and positions is nice. If you're not stranded in a completely lost position. Maybe I'm getting old, but that made me change to something more positonal and less sharp.
But lets be honest. At this "patzer" level (for me also below 2200) much more important than the objective value of an opening is that you like the positons that you get with the openings you play.  Smiley. I still have my - by far - best score in the "harmless" Ruy Lopez Exchange with 9-1-0, which I considered as a more or less automatic win when I was young  Wink
  

ELO 2060. Corr.: 2190. Which casts doubts if I ever knew what I was doing. At least on the Board.
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #56 - 11/27/07 at 17:07:40
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Quote:
However, IMHO for club players things become more and more difficult recently, simply because of the amount of theory.


I am a club player, but I've never encountered anyone who has wheeled out 25 moves of theory against me. I don't think there are many players under 2000 elo who know that much theory. And even if they do, a good understanding of typical positions will most likely prove to be worth a lot more than knowing long variations.
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #55 - 11/27/07 at 13:13:32
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The KID is just sound. I never thought the small crisis around the Bayonett-Variation would last long, was just a matter of time until the antidote was found. Radjas' results IMHO indicate a big "comeback" of the KID.
However, IMHO for club players things become more and more difficult recently, simply because of the amount of theory. Theory is developing in all openings, but in the KID its simply horrific. If you only look at the classical, there are at least 4 lines where black has to constantly be "up to date", new moves arise around move 25 or even later.
Recently AFAIK 3 books have been published in the 4-pawns-attack, just to mention another variation. And I think every KID player knows how dangerous that line can be if you're not "equipped".
So: Theoretical problems in the KID? Not at all. Practical problems: Sure. At least if you're lazybones...
  

ELO 2060. Corr.: 2190. Which casts doubts if I ever knew what I was doing. At least on the Board.
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #54 - 11/14/07 at 13:54:36
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Stigma wrote on 11/13/07 at 14:33:56:
btw. regarding Keene; if Wikipedia is to be trusted this sounds impressive enough:

Quote:
"Keene represented England for nearly two decades in international team events, beginning with the 1966 Chess Olympiad in Havana at age 18. He followed with the next seven straight Olympiads: Lugano 1968 (winning an individual bronze medal), Siegen 1970, Skopje 1972, Nice 1974, Haifa 1976 (team bronze medal), Buenos Aires 1978, and La Valletta 1980 [...] And he played four times for England at the European Team Championships: Bath 1973, Moscow 1977, Skara 1980 (team bronze medal, and individual gold medal for best score on his board) and Plovdiv 1983."


He also won several international tournaments, and one British Championship. Speaking of antipathies, it looks like Keene did as much as anybody for british chess, yet a lot of people in the english-speaking chess world are critical of him. Why is this?

Probably because the whole English 80s GM generation continuously had rows with one another and had a fondness of bashing others in public. Just read some of Short's recent interviews and columns.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #53 - 11/14/07 at 13:28:02
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Keene latched onto Kasparov to the point of sycophancy, didn't he?  That was my perception, anyhow, poorly informed as it may have been.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #52 - 11/14/07 at 00:53:46
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Bibs wrote on 11/13/07 at 06:46:28:
Keene was apparently a very decent strength when he achieved his title.

So was Westerinen, he earned the title in the 70's.
  

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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #51 - 11/13/07 at 17:07:14
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Pimp: Other uses

"A pimp can also mean "a despicable person".[4] In the first years of the 21st century, however, a new meaning of the word has emerged in the form of a transitive verb which means "to decorate" or "to gussy." The instigator for this new definition stems from Pimp My Ride, an MTV television show. Although the new paid homage to hip-hop culture, it has now entered common, even mainstream commercial, use.[5]"

Original source material found at:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pimp

I argue that Keene has taken and refined the art (science?!) of pimping and has applied its inner mechanics and philosphies to chess publishing and playing.  Did he or did he not have a Fischer-Spaasky book on the market practically before the event was even over?

Yo! Yo! Yo!  What's the dealio? 

Pimp my position.

  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #50 - 11/13/07 at 16:07:56
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Drkodos - Ray Keene a pimp?! Bizarre.
Like Harvey Keitel in Taxi Driver? But lardier?  Pray tell...

Guess such old GMs as Gurg just enjoy the game and are not bothered by any Arpad Elo sums. It doesnt matter.  Like people doing martial arts and not worrying about belts or competition. Is entirely possible for the love of a game or pursuit I feel.
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #49 - 11/13/07 at 15:53:11
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Stigma wrote on 11/13/07 at 14:09:20:
Now, I realize it is very bad form to insult an old and wise GM, and also a famous inventor in the opening, but I couldn't resist... Guess who?

http://www.fide.com/ratings/card.phtml?event=13600184

Anyone lower? Smiley

(And still he loves the game so much, he just keeps on playing. Splendid!)


This is very sad. It's even sadder when you see these over-the-hill grandmasters getting swindled by opponents who obviously have no idea what they are doing and moreover have no respect whatsoever for their immense understanding. They know they should give up competition, as losing to patzers is clearly torture, but chess is their life...
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #48 - 11/13/07 at 15:40:41
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My opinion is that most people are not fond of pimps.
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #47 - 11/13/07 at 15:34:17
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One short answer might be that they had met him.

It seems there are numerous long answers to that short question. Short of asking around, check out basically any issue of Kingpin.

  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #46 - 11/13/07 at 14:33:56
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btw. regarding Keene; if Wikipedia is to be trusted this sounds impressive enough:

Quote:
"Keene represented England for nearly two decades in international team events, beginning with the 1966 Chess Olympiad in Havana at age 18. He followed with the next seven straight Olympiads: Lugano 1968 (winning an individual bronze medal), Siegen 1970, Skopje 1972, Nice 1974, Haifa 1976 (team bronze medal), Buenos Aires 1978, and La Valletta 1980 [...] And he played four times for England at the European Team Championships: Bath 1973, Moscow 1977, Skara 1980 (team bronze medal, and individual gold medal for best score on his board) and Plovdiv 1983."


He also won several international tournaments, and one British Championship. Speaking of antipathies, it looks like Keene did as much as anybody for british chess, yet a lot of people in the english-speaking chess world are critical of him. Why is this?
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #45 - 11/13/07 at 14:09:20
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JEH wrote on 11/12/07 at 20:58:57:
Keep going

http://www.fide.com/ratings/card.phtml?event=4104307

Hmm, I wonder who the lowest rated GM is?


Now, I realize it is very bad form to insult an old and wise GM, and also a famous inventor in the opening, but I couldn't resist... Guess who?

http://www.fide.com/ratings/card.phtml?event=13600184

Anyone lower? Smiley

(And still he loves the game so much, he just keeps on playing. Splendid!)
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #44 - 11/13/07 at 06:46:28
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While Keene obviously a scheming, pompous w***er, he was apparently a very decent strength when he achieved his title. At least so someone who was there at that Olympiad told me.

Funny that his mate Tony Buzan btw in quoting him on front cover of one of his dodgy books spelt his name wrong. QC of 'Keane'(sic)-esque proportions.

Back to the thread - antipathy toward KID? Dont get it. Nobody insulted my grandmother, called my pint a poof or anything for playing it.

Next question please .exe...


  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #43 - 11/13/07 at 04:49:53
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Keene Smiley.  Didn't Tony Miles (or someone clever) say that "We have no Grandmasters weaker than Raymond Keene?"
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #42 - 11/13/07 at 04:22:39
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I'd rather be a low rated GM than a highly rated anything else in chess.  Except perhaps World Champion. Tongue
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #41 - 11/12/07 at 23:08:03
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McDonald.

Toppy Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #40 - 11/12/07 at 20:58:57
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Alias wrote on 11/12/07 at 15:47:44:
Uberdecker wrote on 11/12/07 at 15:47:03:
Murey ?


Westerinen.

http://www.fide.com/ratings/card.phtml?event=500020


Keep going

http://www.fide.com/ratings/card.phtml?event=4104307

Hmm, I wonder who the lowest rated GM is?
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #39 - 11/12/07 at 15:47:44
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Uberdecker wrote on 11/12/07 at 15:47:03:
Murey ?


Westerinen.

http://www.fide.com/ratings/card.phtml?event=500020
  

Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #38 - 11/12/07 at 15:47:03
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Murey ?
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #37 - 11/12/07 at 13:19:27
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Matemax wrote on 11/12/07 at 12:33:24:
Bibs wrote on 11/12/07 at 05:54:38:
Presumably super-gm (anyone worth their salt, regularly above 2650 I guess).

In contrast to substandard GMs, who inhabit the waters below 2500, below 2450 in extreme cases.


I once played a 2390-GM  -  how do you call him then? Grin


You can call him Heikki.
  

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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #36 - 11/12/07 at 12:33:24
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Bibs wrote on 11/12/07 at 05:54:38:
Presumably super-gm (anyone worth their salt, regularly above 2650 I guess).

In contrast to substandard GMs, who inhabit the waters below 2500, below 2450 in extreme cases.


I once played a 2390-GM  -  how do you call him then? Grin
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #35 - 11/12/07 at 06:27:21
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Bibs wrote on 11/12/07 at 05:54:38:
Presumably super-gm (anyone worth their salt, regularly above 2650 I guess).

In contrast to substandard GMs, who inhabit the waters below 2500, below 2450 in extreme cases.


I wonder which group Kalle99 has placed Gallagher in  Wink

Toppy Smiley
  

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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #34 - 11/12/07 at 05:54:38
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Presumably super-gm (anyone worth their salt, regularly above 2650 I guess).

In contrast to substandard GMs, who inhabit the waters below 2500, below 2450 in extreme cases.
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #33 - 11/12/07 at 03:48:17
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kalle99 wrote on 11/12/07 at 00:30:20:
VERY few of us will become a S-GM ....so come on fighting with the Kings Indian !!


I think you mean come out fighting, and what's an S-GM?

Toppy Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #32 - 11/12/07 at 00:30:20
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VERY few of us will become a S-GM ....so come on fighting with the Kings Indian !!





[/quote]
  

"I Often see in chess forums people asking : " What is the current status of that line ?"&&&&Its a good reasonable question,but who can claim that he knows the answer ?!&&&&Semko Semkov Januari 2008
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #31 - 11/11/07 at 19:24:02
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Maybe Gallagher should have tried 28...h4, which appears to be satisfactory for Black.
  

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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #30 - 11/11/07 at 16:52:34
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lnn2 wrote on 11/11/07 at 16:40:33:
winawer77 wrote on 10/10/07 at 13:37:09:
I would think that the Fianchetto lines would be the most unpleasant (psychologically at least) for Black to meet as White has no targets for Black to attack and has a safe king. Yet these are the only lines I have never played. I have always played the Classical lines with White, although it has taken many years (and defeats) to turn this into a positive score.

Wouldn't mind taking up the Fianchetto lines, anyone recommend a good book? The only one I'm aware of is Ljangava's Gambit book.


Janjgava's is actually fairly decent, it is not fantastic, but it's definitely a must-buy as its the only recent source, and it is not so bad.

Ignore Gallagher's (or Martin's?!) very dismissive review on the Chesspub site. i suspect Gallagher is just plain scared of people taking up the fianchetto. Janjgava definitely gets at least 3 stars out of 5 for me. The lack of verbal explanations shouldn't bother you, from what i read of your other posts, it seems you are strong enough to assess positions for yourself.

Incidentally a Janjgava suggestion was played a few days ago at ETC, and guess who was the victim?!

A Delchev (2613)-Jo Gallagher (2497),
European Team Chess Championships, Crete GRE, 2007.11.04

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. g3 Bg7 4. Bg2 O-O 5. Nc3 d6 6. Nf3 Nbd7 7. O-O e5 8.
h3 exd4 9. Nxd4 Re8 10. e4 a6 11. Re1 Rb8 12. Rb1 Ne5 13. b3 c5 14. Nc2 Be6
15. f4 Nc6 16. Bb2!? (suggested by Janjgava)  h5 17. Nd5 Nh7 18. Bxg7 Kxg7 19. Qd2 b5 20. b4 Nxb4 21. Ncxb4 cxb4 22. Qxb4 bxc4 23. Qxc4 Nf6 24. Qxa6 Bxd5 25. exd5 Ra8 26. Qc4
Rxe1+ 27. Rxe1 Qb6+ 28. Kh2 Ra3 29. Re2 Qa7 30. f5 g5 31. Qc1 Kh6 32. Qb2
Kg7 33. Qd2 Kh6 34. h4 Ng4+ 35. Kh3 Ne3 36. hxg5+ Kxg5 37. Qb4 Nxf5 38.
Qf4+ Kg6 39. Be4 Qd7 40. Rf2 1-0

Looks easy doesn't it.   Wink


Incredible that Gallagher still persists with this ugly line.

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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #29 - 11/11/07 at 16:40:33
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winawer77 wrote on 10/10/07 at 13:37:09:
I would think that the Fianchetto lines would be the most unpleasant (psychologically at least) for Black to meet as White has no targets for Black to attack and has a safe king. Yet these are the only lines I have never played. I have always played the Classical lines with White, although it has taken many years (and defeats) to turn this into a positive score.

Wouldn't mind taking up the Fianchetto lines, anyone recommend a good book? The only one I'm aware of is Ljangava's Gambit book.


Janjgava's is actually fairly decent, it is not fantastic, but it's definitely a must-buy as its the only recent source, and it is not so bad.

Ignore Gallagher's (or Martin's?!) very dismissive review on the Chesspub site. i suspect Gallagher is just plain scared of people taking up the fianchetto. Janjgava definitely gets at least 3 stars out of 5 for me. The lack of verbal explanations in the book shouldn't bother you, from what i read of your other posts, it seems you are strong enough to assess positions for yourself.

Incidentally a Janjgava suggestion was played a few days ago at ETC, and guess who was the victim?!

A Delchev (2613)-Jo Gallagher (2497),
European Team Chess Championships, Crete GRE, 2007.11.04

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. g3 Bg7 4. Bg2 O-O 5. Nc3 d6 6. Nf3 Nbd7 7. O-O e5 8.
h3 exd4 9. Nxd4 Re8 10. e4 a6 11. Re1 Rb8 12. Rb1 Ne5 13. b3 c5 14. Nc2 Be6
15. f4 Nc6 16. Bb2!? (suggested by Janjgava)  h5 17. Nd5 Nh7 18. Bxg7 Kxg7 19. Qd2 b5 20. b4 Nxb4 21. Ncxb4 cxb4 22. Qxb4 bxc4 23. Qxc4 Nf6 24. Qxa6 Bxd5 25. exd5 Ra8 26. Qc4
Rxe1+ 27. Rxe1 Qb6+ 28. Kh2 Ra3 29. Re2 Qa7 30. f5 g5 31. Qc1 Kh6 32. Qb2
Kg7 33. Qd2 Kh6 34. h4 Ng4+ 35. Kh3 Ne3 36. hxg5+ Kxg5 37. Qb4 Nxf5 38.
Qf4+ Kg6 39. Be4 Qd7 40. Rf2 1-0

Looks easy doesn't it.   Wink
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #28 - 10/28/07 at 14:36:52
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winawer77 wrote on 10/26/07 at 17:00:36:
I've also looked at the 6h3 line advocated in Grivas' 'Beating the Fianchetto Defences'. This is an excellent practical choice as often it is White that takes over the initiative on the kingside, leaving his king in the centre long enough to deny Black a target. He often then whisks it to safety with a quick 0-0-0.
The downside to this is that it can be quite difficult to handle, but I think that careful study of this line would bring great rewards. In my view it is the only line that practically encourages Black to play ...f5.

Grivas also recommends a modified version of the exchange variation, where he claims h3 is more useful than the traditional Be2, as it prevents Black playing ...Bg4-Bxf3 and sinking a knight into d4. I think this line looks an excellent way to play safely against the KID, especially for an endgame buff like me.

Any tried it?


Grivas advocates the Makagonov System and I have dabled with it. I got a chance to try it out in a correspondance game recently but I only managed a draw. I am perservering with it, because it fits in with my approach to opening study, which is to become a  specialist in systems with latent potency ignored by the chess elite. Systems such as this reward deep study and become deadly weapons since you develop a level of understanding and familiarity.

I am bit more skeptical of the exchange variation as a regular weapon, but think the h3 version  is a useful surprise weapon against KID players programmed by books like Gallager to think that dxe5 hands the advantage to Black.
  

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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #27 - 10/27/07 at 23:09:49
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Willempie wrote on 10/08/07 at 07:29:05:
Kasparov seem(ed) to score well against [the KID]


He also scored very well playing it as black Tongue
  

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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #26 - 10/26/07 at 17:00:36
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I've also looked at the 6h3 line advocated in Grivas' 'Beating the Fianchetto Defences'. This is an excellent practical choice as often it is White that takes over the initiative on the kingside, leaving his king in the centre long enough to deny Black a target. He often then whisks it to safety with a quick 0-0-0.
The downside to this is that it can be quite difficult to handle, but I think that careful study of this line would bring great rewards. In my view it is the only line that practically encourages Black to play ...f5.

Grivas also recommends a modified version of the exchange variation, where he claims h3 is more useful than the traditional Be2, as it prevents Black playing ...Bg4-Bxf3 and sinking a knight into d4. I think this line looks an excellent way to play safely against the KID, especially for an endgame buff like me.

Any tried it?
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #25 - 10/26/07 at 15:27:40
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Quote:
I think the 4-pawns-attack could be quite effective, because what can black do other than going into a benoni?


There's also the major line with 6...Na6 (intending ...e5).
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #24 - 10/26/07 at 15:10:16
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why don't you play the 4-pawns attack?

I looked into the fianchetto, and although it is considered solid and psychologically good against the kid,
it does not really have great results ...
also looked into the bayonet and other classical lines with Ne1 Be3, Ne1 Bd2, Nd2, Sämisch f3, etc. ... very unclear positions, with the 4-pawns-attack you get a clear benoni on the board ...
and looking how the world's best players mishandled really good benoni positions,
I think the 4-pawns-attack could be quite effective, because what can black do other than going into a benoni?
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #23 - 10/25/07 at 18:45:49
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I used to play fianchetto lines against the KID and still do from time to time. Above all, the main problem is that Black can now go for the immediate d5 or play c6 and d5. This gives him a good game but of course White still has a very small edge.
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #22 - 10/10/07 at 14:42:14
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winawer77 wrote on 10/10/07 at 13:37:09:
Wouldn't mind taking up the Fianchetto lines, anyone recommend a good book? The only one I'm aware of is Ljangava's Gambit book.


Colin McNab wrote one that is now a bit dated, but probably still useful.  IIRC, however, he only covers KID and doesn't look at Gruenfeld or Benoni.  If you're going to rely on an early g3, you'll need to brush up on those lines too.

LeeRoth
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #21 - 10/10/07 at 14:29:11
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I find in chess it is as much your state of mind that determines success, as it is the moves you play. For example, I am, by nature, a solid positional player. I do not seek complications and prefer to outplay my opponent from a solid foundation. I am happy to play endgames and queenless middlegame that many other players would consider 'boring'.

In my opinion, it takes more skill to nurse a small positional advantage through the middlegame and then convert it in the endgame, keeping my opponent's activity under control at all times than it does to shove a g-pawn down the board, play ...Bxh3 and mate on h2.

However, I play the Classical KID as White because its the only thing that I know in any detail. I also realise that my normal solid style of play is of no use here, so I change my mindset. To play these positions with either colour requires a fearless approach. So I dont wimp out of the big decisions, hunt that c8 bishop down as it my life depended on it and try and stay up on the clock (get seriously behind on time in a Classical KID and you're as good as dead). Do something like this, and you have a chance.

In the Classical KID the riskiest thing you can do is play timidly.

  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #20 - 10/10/07 at 14:11:29
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winawer77 wrote on 10/10/07 at 13:37:09:
I have to agree with LeeRoth, its as much as mentality and fighting spirit of KID players that makes then so dangerous.

Give me a QGD or Slav player any day, they are quiet souls that do not like structural weaknesses and are often partial to a draw. I'm happy to grind these guys down all day. A KID player is a very different animal, he plays without fear, and seeks to improve the dynamism within his position with every move. He does not shy away from material sacrifices and much of his play (esp in the Classical lines) is very easy(straightforward) to play....f5-f4, g5-g4 etc, you can see why its popular. In the Classical lines if White's plan succeeds he demolishes Black's queenside, if Black's succeeds he mates the king!

I would think that the Fianchetto lines would be the most unpleasant (psychologically at least) for Black to meet as White has no targets for Black to attack and has a safe king. Yet these are the only lines I have never played. I have always played the Classical lines with White, although it has taken many years (and defeats) to turn this into a positive score.

Wouldn't mind taking up the Fianchetto lines, anyone recommend a good book? The only one I'm aware of is Ljangava's Gambit book.


A very good psychological (or ethnological?) analysis. It is really more in the people than in the opening itself that you should seak the danger. Lips Sealed
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #19 - 10/10/07 at 13:37:09
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I have to agree with LeeRoth, its as much as mentality and fighting spirit of KID players that makes then so dangerous.

Give me a QGD or Slav player any day, they are quiet souls that do not like structural weaknesses and are often partial to a draw. I'm happy to grind these guys down all day. A KID player is a very different animal, he plays without fear, and seeks to improve the dynamism within his position with every move. He does not shy away from material sacrifices and much of his play (esp in the Classical lines) is very easy(straightforward) to play....f5-f4, g5-g4 etc, you can see why its popular. In the Classical lines if White's plan succeeds he demolishes Black's queenside, if Black's succeeds he mates the king!

I would think that the Fianchetto lines would be the most unpleasant (psychologically at least) for Black to meet as White has no targets for Black to attack and has a safe king. Yet these are the only lines I have never played. I have always played the Classical lines with White, although it has taken many years (and defeats) to turn this into a positive score.

Wouldn't mind taking up the Fianchetto lines, anyone recommend a good book? The only one I'm aware of is Ljangava's Gambit book.
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #18 - 10/09/07 at 15:58:39
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lnn2 wrote on 10/09/07 at 00:57:11:
LeeRoth wrote on 10/08/07 at 22:37:52:
The King's Indian is not an opening where White is going to grab a positional edge and be able to grind Black down.  Unless White plays something insipid, he's going to have to mix it up in order to try and win.  


Please tell me why White needs to feel obliged to mix it up after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. g3. I'm no expert on fianchetto theory, but looking at the positions every month from Mikhalevski's updates, the fianchetto just looks like a free grind for White to me. And Black is often the side who feels obliged to mix things up (not White), simply because of his inherent lack of space.


The main problem I have with the fianchetto is that Black can play 3..c5.  White's two principled tries are 4.Nf3, which is no guarantee of a quiet life, or 4.d5, with a Benoni.  See the famous game Korchnoi-Kasparov for the kind of mayhem that can result from that. 

But even if Black stays in King's Indian territory he has -- as you note -- ways of mixing it up against the fianchetto.  As Gallagher writes of the fianchetto in Play the King's Indian:  "In my early King's Indian days I suffered horribly in this line . . . These problems continued for many years until I discovered a way to create chaos on the board. . .[T]hese players want to control the game and they begin to feel uncomfortable when they feel this control slipping away.  Make them dance to your tune and they won't like it -- even if the position is objectively in their favor."

It's just this sort of attitude, which many of the good KID players seem to have, that makes this opening so dangerous.
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #17 - 10/09/07 at 03:24:24
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Eric,

I agree with your post, but it's ironic that a tidy player such as Fischer also played the Black side of the KID.  Tigran Petrosian made the KID look almost foolish, but Kasparov brought it back fully to respectability.  Unfortunately for KID lovers, he also sounded its (possibly premature) deathknell.

I generally don't like chaos in my chess games, but I can keep up with most players tactically.  I don't think I have to outplay my opponent tactically in the KID, I just have to keep pace and pressure Black until the endgame.  And yeah, I rely heavily on the Classical KID as White.
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #16 - 10/09/07 at 02:36:24
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I disagree that Black always (or even usually) succeeds in getting to attack the White King.  However, it is pretty true that Black can pretty much always succeed in making a total mess of the position.  I tihnk that's why Whites usually feel uncomfortable.

As White, once you become just as comfortable as a KID player in tactical, messy positions, you stop fearing the KID and even relish playing against it.  At least, that's been my experience.
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #15 - 10/09/07 at 00:57:11
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LeeRoth wrote on 10/08/07 at 22:37:52:
The King's Indian is not an opening where White is going to grab a positional edge and be able to grind Black down.  Unless White plays something insipid, he's going to have to mix it up in order to try and win. 


Please tell me why White needs to feel obliged to mix it up after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. g3. I'm no expert on fianchetto theory, but looking at the positions every month from Mikhalevski's updates, the fianchetto just looks like a free grind for White to me. And Black is often the side who feels obliged to mix things up (not White), simply because of his inherent lack of space.
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #14 - 10/08/07 at 22:37:52
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My main point, perhaps not expressed very well, is that the King's Indian is an active and counterattacking defense.  At the super GM level, players like Karpov and Kramnik have the skill and the temprament to squelch Black's activity.  But that is not particularly relevant lower down.  At club level, OTB, the opening is dangerous -- often just as much for White as it is for Black. 

The King's Indian is not an opening where White is going to grab a positional edge and be able to grind Black down.  Unless White plays something insipid, he's going to have to mix it up in order to try and win.  And he should.  Objectively, he probably has the better chances.  But Black will get his customary play and his usual fistful of tactical tricks.  In the classical lines, Black gets the added bonus of going for the White King, but even in other lines, Black usually finds a way to become active or switch to an equally messy Benoni.





  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #13 - 10/08/07 at 21:31:36
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I suspect we are all products of the Fischer & Kasparov generation of KID players.  While the opening may have experienced a bit of a lull (and now, perhaps, a bit of a renaissance), more than just KID players have been exposed to the KID just by playing through the games of world champions.  Playing through these games, a number of amateur players became hooked and followed their heroes into the KID, which means it's an opening for which the tournament player needs to be prepared.  In short, it's on the 1.d4 player's radar.

More to the point, our exposure of good GM games in the KID have also resulted in--I would argue--a better than average understanding of the basic goals for Black and White.  Not better understanding of the theory (which is always changing) or the evaluation of particular lines, but in my limited experience playing against the KID (I've been using the Bayonet), I have a good feel for what White needs to do and what Black intends.  I can't reel off endless variations by memory, but I do know that I want to plunk a knight down on e6 and exchange off Black's light-squared bishop, which can be dangerous in kingside assaults.  I know that Black will want to move his/her f6-knight to make way for ...f7-f5, and that there are certain principles and conditions that dictate whether or not I want to take this pawn, etc.

I don't at all mean to suggest that the KID is a bad opening or that I always win against it, but rather that the rules or ideas governing the middlegame may be a little more intrinsically familiar than in other openings.  The fallout of fashion, perhaps...
  

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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #12 - 10/08/07 at 14:36:08
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Willempie wrote on 10/08/07 at 07:29:05:
LeeRoth wrote on 10/07/07 at 16:44:12:
Show me someone who brags about beating the King's Indian, and I'll show you someone who hasn't played too many of them against strong opposition.

Ftacnik, Gelfand and of course Karpov and Kasparov seem(ed) to score well against it. Iirc Karpov has a huge score against the KID and definately a plus score against Kasparov.
I dont know how much they brag though Grin


Well, I recall Karpov writing in one of his books that very few people played the KID against him.  He didn't say "dared to play," but I think that's what he meant.
  

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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #11 - 10/08/07 at 07:29:05
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LeeRoth wrote on 10/07/07 at 16:44:12:
Show me someone who brags about beating the King's Indian, and I'll show you someone who hasn't played too many of them against strong opposition.

Ftacnik, Gelfand and of course Karpov and Kasparov seem(ed) to score well against it. Iirc Karpov has a huge score against the KID and definately a plus score against Kasparov.
I dont know how much they brag though Grin
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #10 - 10/08/07 at 07:13:58
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The biggest problem with the KID for white is to understand the position from black's point of view. (but the same occurs for other openings).
Black can go for a Q-side attack, a K-side attack or try to demolish white center. When playing d4, I found that the Sämisch was flexible enough to counter black's plans. Now to be honnest, my first games with the Sämisch were no success. I needed to read Ward's book (the controversial Sämisch) 4 or 5 times and to play many blitz and rapid games to understand the positions arising from this opening. But once you get it, it is no problem to survive (at least the opening phase) even against stronger players.
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #9 - 10/07/07 at 23:37:05
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I really don't understand this fuss about Black being able to attack White's king.

White just needs to choose a variation that is NOT the Classical 7. 0-0.

In fact the majority of variations against the KID don't easily allow a kingside attack.
Take your pick:  3. g3, 5. f3, 5. Bd3, 5. Nge2, 5. h3, 5. Bg5, Petrosian 7. d5, Gligoric 7. Be3

In tournament games I have used the Gligoric 7. Be3, Samisch and Makogonov and in no single line am i in any danger of being mated. In fact what i do have is a nice spatial plus. I would imagine the Fianchetto to be an excellent weapon as well. Isn't White playing the same opening as Black but with more space?!
« Last Edit: 10/08/07 at 01:23:54 by lnn2 »  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #8 - 10/07/07 at 20:42:28
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I don't mind meeting the KID, probably because I only have begun playing 1.d4 recently. Ask me again in 2017 or so.
  

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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #7 - 10/07/07 at 19:35:46
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Lee's answer is exactly how I felt about the King's Indian before I spent about six months studying how to play it.

I studied both sides, played the black side in many blitz games and studied the classics.  It took me a tremendous amount of work, but I now feel more confident against the King's Indian than just about any other opening as White. 

I never feel comfortable playing chess.  I feel excited, nervous, angry at myself, or in a totally winning position in which I have absolutely no chance of drawing, bored.  I hate feeling bored and constantly ask myself why my opponent hasn't resigned yet.  For me, that's the key question that keeps me looking for the best technique in winning positions.
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #6 - 10/07/07 at 16:44:12
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Show me someone who brags about beating the King's Indian, and I'll show you someone who hasn't played too many of them against strong opposition.  Forget the GM games, for a minute.  Yeah, ok, the theory is important and you need to follow it, but the fact that Radjabov wins against Van Wely, doesn't mean too much to you and me in our Thursday night games.

As a long-time 1.d4 player, I'll confess that the KID is the defense I most hate to face.  The reason has nothing to do with "objective" factors.  Yes, I know I have more space and I have a good idea of what the plans are, thank you.  But the simple fact of the matter is that, in practical play, Black gets all sorts of activity and he's usually gunning for your king.  I can't tell you how many times I've thought that I would glady trade my positional advantage or extra pawn or whatever, if Black would just leave my king alone.  Win against the King's Indian, sure I do.  But comfortable against it, well, comfotable, never really comfortable.

Just my two cents,
LeeRoth

  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #5 - 10/07/07 at 12:44:56
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I think in the minds of many of us 1. d4 players, the KID is "antipositional" and "incorrect". It is not yet refuted, but when Fritz 33 is released, it finally will be.  Grin

Afterall, Black encases his dark squared bishop and then leaps for joy later in the game if he miracously manages to free it. Well, why did you put the #*!&% bishop there in the first place....duh?  Then Black throws caution to the wind and stakes everthing on a King side attack . Surely, such reckless, infantile play cannot be correct?  Shocked

On top of all of that, Black is not even subtle about his intentions. He wants to destroy the White king. There is no subtlely here at all. He is coming dirrectly for my king? Hmm...this is deeply personal!! Such brazen unfriendly, caveman like behaviour must be punished. Black cannot be allowed to get away with this.

This sums up the feeling of many 1.d4 players towards the KID. Yes, we all know that the KID is not really anitpositional. And yeah, we know that dynamic factors can trumpet over static factors in chess. But surely still.......
« Last Edit: 10/07/07 at 13:50:43 by Antillian »  

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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #4 - 10/07/07 at 11:50:45
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If i didn't know any theory, i wonder why Black's opening is considered so interesting to play after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. g3 Bg7 4. Bg2 0-0 5. Nf3 d6 , I mean, doesn't White simply have the same setup but with more space?!   Huh

Anyway I think the attitude of White players is no more zealous than advocates of the Black cause (have you ever read Gallagher's books?!)
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #3 - 10/07/07 at 09:47:38
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I'm going to respond by being defensive for just a few moments.

As an ardent player of 1.d4, I relish the opportunity to score another win against the KID.  I also hate losing to it, even in blitz.  I don't think it's a bit defensive to brag about positive scores against a given opening, and I have quite a nice record against the KID.

Having said that, I believe that one major reason I am successful against the KID is that I respect the many new ideas thrown at me.  I don't pretend the KID is refuted, but I really like my chances, even against IMs and GMs when they assay the KID against me.  My last outing in classical time controls was a loss to an FM, but before that I had two draws against IMs and positive scores against players rated over 2500 USCF.

Please, bring on the KID!
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #2 - 10/07/07 at 07:37:07
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Two in a row. Bit 'Bloomesque', no Exi?

Dont worry what other people blather about. Only about the moves they play. Internet brings out lots of mouth but significantly less trousers.

Advice:
Forget the stats. Sums do not a player make.
Get any decent repertoire/starting out type book. They will sort you out to a surprisingly high level.
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #1 - 10/07/07 at 07:18:16
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I think the KID is making a sort of comeback too (not that it ever really lost its popularity). Just look at Monte-Carlo http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4164. Many KID games and White lost virtually every game where the main line wasn't played. Even if all games are taken into account, Black won something like 65%. Even the 2600+ players were struggling with it and lost some games. The Slav and Nimzo/QID did MUCH worse. The Slav/Semi-Slav particularly did very badly with something like 1 win for every 10 games lost. Of course, this is just one tournament, but it is encouraging for KID players. I still think that d4 players secretly hate the KID because it's perhaps the most aggressive response and Black is going for White's precious king.
  
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Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
10/07/07 at 06:53:46
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I'm fooling around with many defenses to d4 and the KID is one of them. However, when I talk to White players about it or even mention it, they get very defensive and start slandering it. "I crush it!!!!!!" etc. Are they trying to portray a false sense of confidence to dissuade others from playing it? It often seems so artificial. It's even funnier when I win as Black. Is this a common reaction or am I just getting a bad bunch?
  
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