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Normal Topic Four Knights Rubinstein (Read 3196 times)
Frankly
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Re: Four Knights Rubinstein
Reply #6 - 10/30/07 at 14:36:14
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Thanks guys, tremendously helpful. I must say, with my limited skill and resources, I feel far more comfy with Rf8 and Micawber's lines than with d5 and allowing the rook to be taken.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Four Knights Rubinstein
Reply #5 - 10/30/07 at 14:20:06
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Willempie wrote on 10/30/07 at 13:00:35:
To it seems 7.Nxf7 d5 8.Nxh8 dxc4 9.d3 Bg4 is even better then theory. Also check this variation in reverse as it is usually Italian specialists who know this variation at all:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Nd5 Nxe4 6.Qe2 Nxf2 7.d4 Nxh1 8.dxc5 d6 9.Bg5


Yeah, I played the black side of this in a cc game and wound up in a colors-reversed duplicate of a game that Bernstein loses in Tartakover's 500 Games of Chess (I forget the opponent).  I wasn't aware of that, however, until Bruce Monson pointed it out to me after the game.  I played a little better than Bernstein did, or perhaps my opponent played worse than his counterpart, and I managed to draw.  I believe it's one of my "live games" from the 13th U.S. CC Ch., on Franklin Campbell's website.  Monson and I had an email debate concerning whether Black was any worse.  He said yes, I wasn't sure.
  

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Willempie
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Re: Four Knights Rubinstein
Reply #4 - 10/30/07 at 13:00:35
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To it seems 7.Nxf7 d5 8.Nxh8 dxc4 9.d3 Bg4 is even better then theory. Also check this variation in reverse as it is usually Italian specialists who know this variation at all:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Nd5 Nxe4 6.Qe2 Nxf2 7.d4 Nxh1 8.dxc5 d6 9.Bg5
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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micawber
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Re: Four Knights Rubinstein
Reply #3 - 10/30/07 at 12:21:16
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Youre right that 7.Nxf7,d5 is in MCO, however without further info.
Emms ("Play the open games as black")  gives 7.Nxf7,d5 8.Nxh8,dxc4 as you suggested and continues
9.d3,Be6 with the black plan 0-0-0 followed by Rxh8.

This line has in fact been played:
Svoboda-Starzec, Slovakia 2001, 0.5-0.5 (38):
9.d3,Be6 10.Bg5!,0-0-0 11.0-0 ?! (11.e5l looks better, when the position remains unclear),cxd3 12.cxd3,Nc6!
13.Nd5,Bxd5 14.exd5,Nd4! and I think I would prefer black.

All things considered it seems that 7...d5 leads to an unclear position
and seems not better than 7...Rf8 or 7...0-0.


In the line I supplied 7.Bxf7,Kf8! 8.f4,d6 black simply wins a piece for which
white gets insufficient compensation (imho).
  
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Frankly
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Re: Four Knights Rubinstein
Reply #2 - 10/30/07 at 07:30:37
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Thanks for those options after Nxf7, Micawber.

Yes, indeed, I should have made it clear that I was referring to the situation after the Bishop moves to c4 and Black plays Bc5 (otherwise, of course, Bxf7 would not be possible).

Your options do not show Nxf7 d5 as the main line. This was what puzzled me - MCO (if I'm not mistaken - don't have it here now) regards Nxf7 as bad because of ...d5, and then, presumably, Nxh8 gets dxc4. I'm just not thrilled with this. I cannot see the supposed -/+ assessment, and Fritz does not help, as it, quite justifiably, seems to like the exchange. I can't find games with this line (maybe not looking in the right places). Furthermore, Bxf7 (instead of Nx) seems equally non-terrible for White, although certainly not as natural as Nxf7.
  
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micawber
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Re: Four Knights Rubinstein
Reply #1 - 10/29/07 at 19:54:47
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I suppose youre question is about:
1.e4,e5 2.Nf3,Nc6 3.Nc3,Nf6 4.Bb5,Nd4 5.Bc4,Bc5
and now
6.Nxe5,Qe7

White can indeed play
7.Nxf7, Rf8 8.0-0, b5!? and black equalizes without difficulty

Black can even 'risk' 7.Nxf7,0-0 as
a) 7.Ng5+,Kh8 8.0-0,d5! (9.exd5?,Bg4! -+)
b) 7.Nd6+,Kh8 8.Nxc8,Rac8 9.0-0 (9.d3,b5!?) ,Nxe4
Here the move ...d5 comes into play. As long as white hasnt castled his kingside is extremely
vunerable (especially the point f2).

It's not as if 7.Nxf7 is bad, but that 7.Nd3 is better.

By the way
7.Bxf7, Kf8 8.f4,d6 isnt something I would recommend  Wink
  
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Frankly
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Four Knights Rubinstein
10/29/07 at 07:22:49
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I should greatly appreciate some assistance on the following puzzle in the four knights Rubinstein variation: (i.e. with Bb5 and ...Nd4)

Where White plays Nxe5 and Black answers with Qe7, White plays Nxf7 is supposed to be very bad for White because of ...d5.

I don't really see it. Neither does Fritz. Indeed, Bxf7 is also supposed to be terrible, yet I don't see precisely why Black is supposed to feel so great about it.

What would be very useful is some idiot's guide to precisely why Black should feel happy with Nxf7 or Bxf7.
  
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