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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C10: Hecht-Reefschlager Variation (Read 9878 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Hecht-Reefschlager Variation
Reply #22 - 11/19/07 at 14:01:30
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Very interesting! My Rybka indeed follows your line a(i).

I had in fact already wondered about the ...Kf7--g8 idea in another variation! In the 6 Bb5 line, I believe Neil, in one of his updates, gives 6 ...Bd7 7 Bg5 f6! 8 Nh4 fg 9 Qh5 g6 10 Ng6 Ng7 (10 ...hg =) 11 Qh6 Nd4!? (11 ...hg =) 12 Bd3 Ndf5 13 Bf5 Nf5 14 Qh5 Ng7 15 Qh6 Nf5 16 Qh5 Ng7 =. But here it looks like 15 ...Kf7!? can be played, idea 16 Nh8 Kg8 17 Nf7 Kf7 or 17 Ng6 Bc5!

The H-R lives!
  
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linksspringer
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Re: Hecht-Reefschlager Variation
Reply #21 - 11/19/07 at 00:07:55
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Meanwhile could someone briefly tell me the theoretical state of 4 e5? I guess 4 ...b6 is OK, but while 4 ...Nge7 5 Nf3 Nf5 looks at least equal for Black in the line 6 Bb5!? Bd7 7 Bg5 f6!, I don't know what to think about 6 Ne2 -- I'm willing to be told that Black's all right after say 6 ...Be7 (is 6 ...f6 under a cloud or OK?) 7 Ng3 0-0 8 c3, but the position looks a little thankless to me and I don't really know how it should be handled. All help gratefully received!


I had a look at the game Negi - Rozentalis 2005 again. After 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.e5 Nge7 5.Nf3 Nf5 6.Ne2 f6 7.Ng3 fxe5 8.dxe5 Rozentalis played 8...Bc5.
Here Neil McDonald mentions the interesting move 8...Nh4!?, directly attacking e5. He continues 9.Ng5 Nxe5 10.Qh5 Neg6 11.Nxh7 {with threats of Bd3 and Bg5} 11...e5 12.Bg5 Rxh7 13.Bxh4 Rxh5 14.Bxd8 Rh8 15.Bxc7 winning a pawn.

The position after 11.Nxh7 is interesting. I wondered about 11...Kf7!? threatening Kg8 to pick up the knight. So I fired up the silicon oracle (Rybka). She likes 11...e5 and 11...Qd6!?, but when pressed she came up with the following:

11. Nxh7 Kf7
a) 12.Bd3 Qe8!
a1) 13.Bxg6 Nxg6 14.Ng5 Kg8
a2) 13.Bg5 Kg8 14.Bxh4 Rxh7 15.Bxg6 Rxh5 16.Bxe8 Rxh4
a3) 13.Ne2 Kg8 14.Bxg6 Nxg6 15.Nf4 Rxh7 16.Qxg6 Bd7
b) 12. Bg5 Qd6! 13.Bxh4 Qb4 14.c3 Qxh4
b1) 15.Qxh4 Nxh4 16.Nxf8 Rxf8
b2) 15.Qf3 Qf4 16.Qxf4 Nxf4 17.Nxf8 Rxf8
c) 12.Ng5 Kg8 13.Qd1 Be7 and 14...e5

Which all look satisfactory for black. So is the ball back in White's court?
  
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linksspringer
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Re: Hecht-Reefschlager Variation
Reply #20 - 11/14/07 at 22:10:18
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[quote author=Michael Ayton link=1193755505/15#18 date=1195074944]I've decided to get myself the Keilhack & Schlenker, Wisnewski and Watson books/articles for Christmas, so I can make a proper study of this variation!

Meanwhile could someone briefly tell me the theoretical state of 4 e5? I guess 4 ...b6 is OK, but while 4 ...Nge7 5 Nf3 Nf5 looks at least equal for Black in the line 6 Bb5!? Bd7 7 Bg5 f6!, I don't know what to think about 6 Ne2 -- I'm willing to be told that Black's all right after say 6 ...Be7 (is 6 ...f6 under a cloud or OK?) 7 Ng3 0-0 8 c3, but the position looks a little thankless to me and I don't really know how it should be handled. All help gratefully received![/quote]

Keilhack & Schlenker do not deal with this variation, in fact they do not have any Nc6+e6 variations except for 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nc3 e6 where black will follow up with Bb4 and d6 (not d5). But it is a great 1...Nc6 book!
Wisnewski has 4 ...Nge7 5 Nf3 Nf5, but doesn't mention 6.Ne2 (grrr). Searching for games, I see that Rozentalis plays 6...f6, but I don't know what the theoretical status is (anyone?).
([b]edit:[/b] I just found analysis of that game on [url]http://www.newinchess.com/SOS/Games/2005_11.zip[/url])
([b]edit2:[/b] aargh, of course the chesspub pgn archive also has analysis of Negi - Rozentalis 2005, should have looked there first)
Watson has the sharper 4...f6.
Wisnewski and Watson have different recommendations in places, eg 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Bd3, and now Wisnewski has 6...f5!? while Watson goes for 6...Bb4.
« Last Edit: 11/15/07 at 08:53:19 by linksspringer »  
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Beetlejuice
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Re: Hecht-Reefschlager Variation
Reply #19 - 11/14/07 at 22:03:12
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[quote author=Michael Ayton link=1193755505/15#18 date=1195074944]I've decided to get myself the Keilhack & Schlenker ...[/quote]

If 1. e4 Nc6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 e6 is your main interest, you should notice that Keilhack & Schlenker's [i]1... Nc6 ... aus allen Lagen[/i] does not deal with this line at all. Quoting from page 34:

[quote]Mit 3... e6 (eigentlich Französisch!) konnten wir uns hingegen gar nicht anfreunden, auf eine Bearbeitung dieses Themas haben wir - aufgrund der vielen interessanten Alternativen wie auch aus "ideologischen" Gründen - verzichtet[/quote]

I will refrain from translating this, but I hope the readers get the point.

Another good source on "1.- Nc6 against everything" is the Modern Chess Openings CD on 1.- Nc6, by Kalinin and Berdichevsky, from Convekta (Chess Assistant). There is a book version of this, but it has been considered inferior to the CD (I only have the CD).
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Hecht-Reefschlager Variation
Reply #18 - 11/14/07 at 21:15:44
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I've decided to get myself the Keilhack & Schlenker, Wisnewski and Watson books/articles for Christmas, so I can make a proper study of this variation!

Meanwhile could someone briefly tell me the theoretical state of 4 e5? I guess 4 ...b6 is OK, but while 4 ...Nge7 5 Nf3 Nf5 looks at least equal for Black in the line 6 Bb5!? Bd7 7 Bg5 f6!, I don't know what to think about 6 Ne2 -- I'm willing to be told that Black's all right after say 6 ...Be7 (is 6 ...f6 under a cloud or OK?) 7 Ng3 0-0 8 c3, but the position looks a little thankless to me and I don't really know how it should be handled. All help gratefully received!
  
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Re: Hecht-Reefschlager Variation
Reply #17 - 11/11/07 at 00:20:00
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Matemax wrote on 11/09/07 at 10:35:01:
I was just thinking about the beginning of the variation and thought that the maniacs choice could also be
8.de6!?


some lines  Cool:

8.dxe6 Nxf3+ 9.Qxf3 Be5 (9. ... Ba5 10.exf7+ Kf8 11.Bc4;  9. ... Bd4 10.exf7+ Kxf7 11.Bc4+ Kf8 12.Bg5) 10.exf7+ Kxf7 (10. ... Kf8 11.Bg5 (11.Be3 Qd5) 11. ... Be6 12.Rfe1 Qd6 13.Rad1) 11.Bc4+ Kf8 12.Be3 Bd6 (12. ... Qd6 (a strange comp-line coming up...)  13.Rad1 Bxh2+ 14.Kh1 Qb4 15.Rd8+ Ke7 16.Rxh8 Bg4 17.Bc5+ Qxc5 18.Re1+ Kd7 19.Be6+ Bxe6 20.Rxa8 Bd6 21.Kg1) 13.Rfe1 Bd7 14.Qxb7 Rb8 15.Qxa7 Rxb2 16.Rad1 with good compensation!

so perhaps black has to turn to:
8. ... Nxe6 9.bxc3 O-O
or  8. ... Bxe6 9.bxc3 Nxf3+ 10.Qxf3 Qd5 11.Qg3 O-O-O (11. ... O-O 12.c4 Qc6 13.Bb2 Bd7 14.Rad1)
which is certainly better for white

well let me hear from you  Smiley


The more I look at it, the more I like it!  Smiley
After 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bd3 Bb4 6.O-O Bxc3 7.exd5 Nxd4
8.dxe6 Nxf3 9.Qxf3 Be5 10.exf7 Kxf7 11.Bc4 Kf8
I think 12.Re1!? might also work!
for example
(a) 12...Qd6 13.Bg5 Qc5 (13...Bxh2 14.Kh1 Bg4 15.Qxf6!) 14.b4! Qxc4 15.Rxe5
(b) 12...Qd4 13.b3! Qd6 14.Bb2 Bxb2 15.Rad1 Bd4 16.c3
(c) 12...Bd6 13.Be3 transposes to your analysis, but 13.Bf4!? also looks strong.
This all looks excellent for white. What do you think?
  
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Matemax
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Re: Hecht-Reefschlager Variation
Reply #16 - 11/10/07 at 08:47:58
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linksspringer wrote on 11/10/07 at 00:35:55:
Thanks for the interesting analysis! About the first part: I agree with most of your variations, but after 12...Ne4 13.Qxg7 O-O-O, why doesn't white play 14.Qxf7?
And I think 12...b6 might still be playable, after 13.Ba3 0-0-0 14.c5 the computer still finds interesting plans for black, just one example being 14...h5 15.f3 Rhg8 16.cxb6 axb6 17.c4 Qa4!
The second part where white sacrifices a whole piece indeed looks other-worldly. Shocked I don't know what's going on, but my computer suggests 13...Qb4 in your "strange comp" line instead of Bxh2.
That would mean that on move 18 you no longer have Re1+.
For black players who don't like all this excitement, I repeat my suggestion 7...exd5 8.bxc3 0-0  Wink



after 12...Ne4 13.Qxg7 O-O-O, why doesn't white play 14.Qxf7:
The troubles white gets are not worth the pawn(s) 14...Rhg8 15.g3 e5 - and a sample variation if your greedy now: 16.Qh7 Nf6 17.Qh4 Rh8 18.Qg5 Rh2! -+

12...b6 13.Ba3 0-0-0 14.c5 h5 15.f3 Rhg8 16.cxb6 axb6 17.c4 Qa4 - this leads to a position, where white can improve and black has to sit and wait: e.g. 18.Rb3 Bc6 19.Rfb1 Bb7 20.Qe5

computer suggests 13...Qb4 - this is clearly better, I didnt check the comp-line deeply - but I wanted to say, that over the board black will be lost - I hope I can try 8.de6 in one of my games in the future!  Roll Eyes
  
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linksspringer
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Re: Hecht-Reefschlager Variation
Reply #15 - 11/10/07 at 00:35:55
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Thanks for the interesting analysis! About the first part: I agree with most of your variations, but after 12...Ne4 13.Qxg7 O-O-O, why doesn't white play 14.Qxf7?
And I think 12...b6 might still be playable, after 13.Ba3 0-0-0 14.c5 the computer still finds interesting plans for black, just one example being 14...h5 15.f3 Rhg8 16.cxb6 axb6 17.c4 Qa4!
The second part where white sacrifices a whole piece indeed looks other-worldly. Shocked I don't know what's going on, but my computer suggests 13...Qb4 in your "strange comp" line instead of Bxh2.
That would mean that on move 18 you no longer have Re1+.
For black players who don't like all this excitement, I repeat my suggestion 7...exd5 8.bxc3 0-0  Wink
  
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Matemax
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Re: Hecht-Reefschlager Variation
Reply #14 - 11/09/07 at 10:35:01
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12.Rb1 looks really dangerous - well I tried some analyses (with a little help  Shocked):

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bd3 Bb4 6.O-O Bxc3 7.exd5 Nxd4 8.bxc3 Nxf3+ 9.Qxf3 Qxd5 10.Qg3 Bd7 11.c4 Qc6 12.Rb1 O-O-O

a) 12. ... O-O ?! 13.Bb2 Ne8 looks very passive
b) 12. ... Ne4 transfer the knight to the other wing 13.Qxg7 O-O-O 14.Qd4 Nc5 15.Be3 b6 maybe this could hold?
c) 12. ... b6 ? 13.Ba3 where does the black king go? After 0-0-0 there white plays c5...

13.Be3 Rhe8 play in the center

13. ... h5 - is still a good alternative, I think -  14.f3 Rdg8 15.Bxa7 h4 (15. ... g5? 16.Qe5;  15. ... b6??16.Rxb6 cxb6 17.Qb8#) 16.Qf4 e5 17.Qxe5 Rh5 18.Qf4 (18.Qd4 b6 19.Bxb6 cxb6 20.Rxb6 Qc5 thats what you need Rh5 for) 18. ... g5 19.Qd4 g4]

14.Bxa7 this should be critical

a) 14.Rfe1 e5 15.Bxa7 h5 with counterplay
b) 14.f3 e5 Black is OK! 15.Qxg7 (15.Bxa7 e4) 15. ... e4 (15. ... Rg8 16.Qh6 e4 17.fxe4 Nxe4 18.Qxc6 Bxc6) 16.fxe4 Nxe4 17.Qd4 Bh3 18.Qxa7 Rg8

14. ... e5 15.Be3 Ng4 16.Bd2 (16.Rb4 Nxe3 17.fxe3 e4 18.Be2 Qg6) 16. ... f5 (16. ... h5!?)
17.Be2 Be6 18.Bg5 Rd4 19.Bf3 (19.c3 Rd6) 19. ... e4 20.Bxg4 fxg4 21.Qa3 Lxc4


I was just thinking about the beginning of the variation and thought that the maniacs choice could also be
8.de6!?


some lines  Cool:

8.dxe6 Nxf3+ 9.Qxf3 Be5 (9. ... Ba5 10.exf7+ Kf8 11.Bc4;  9. ... Bd4 10.exf7+ Kxf7 11.Bc4+ Kf8 12.Bg5) 10.exf7+ Kxf7 (10. ... Kf8 11.Bg5 (11.Be3 Qd5) 11. ... Be6 12.Rfe1 Qd6 13.Rad1) 11.Bc4+ Kf8 12.Be3 Bd6 (12. ... Qd6 (a strange comp-line coming up...)  13.Rad1 Bxh2+ 14.Kh1 Qb4 15.Rd8+ Ke7 16.Rxh8 Bg4 17.Bc5+ Qxc5 18.Re1+ Kd7 19.Be6+ Bxe6 20.Rxa8 Bd6 21.Kg1) 13.Rfe1 Bd7 14.Qxb7 Rb8 15.Qxa7 Rxb2 16.Rad1 with good compensation!

so perhaps black has to turn to:
8. ... Nxe6 9.bxc3 O-O
or  8. ... Bxe6 9.bxc3 Nxf3+ 10.Qxf3 Qd5 11.Qg3 O-O-O (11. ... O-O 12.c4 Qc6 13.Bb2 Bd7 14.Rad1)
which is certainly better for white

well let me hear from you  Smiley
« Last Edit: 11/09/07 at 14:47:47 by Matemax »  
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linksspringer
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Re: Hecht-Reefschlager Variation
Reply #13 - 11/09/07 at 00:46:45
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To recap:
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bd3 Bb4 6.O-O!? Bxc3 7.exd5 Nxd4!? 8.bxc3 Nxf3 9.Qxf3 Qxd5! 10.Qg3 Bd7 11.c4! Qc6
and now your suggestion 12 Rb1, then Be3.
At first I thought the bishops would be more than enough compensation for the pawn, but Matemax made me realize that black has counterplay with the h5!? plan.
My sample variation:
12.Rb1 b6 13.Be3 h5!? 14.f3 Kf8 15.h4 Re8 or 15.Qh4 e5 with an interesting struggle.

Regarding 5...Nb4: Watson in Dangerous weapons likes it, and it is Wisnewski's recommendation in play 1...Nc6!.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Hecht-Reefschlager Variation
Reply #12 - 11/08/07 at 23:50:50
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Back at my desk and I can see I was guilty of some late-night thingy-up in suggesting 7 ...Bb2 was OK!!  Embarrassed  But glad to see the discussion has moved on! The 7 ...Nd4 lines look to be critical. Is 12 Rd1 clearly best? I wondered about 12 Rb1, then Be3 -- the Bishops might be useful?

Also 5 ...Nb4 looks interesting. Is there any theory on this move? Does Watson or anyone else discuss it?
  
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Re: Hecht-Reefschlager Variation
Reply #11 - 11/05/07 at 13:48:41
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Thanks Matemax, you have convinced me! I underestimated black's chances in your variation. That's a relief!  Smiley
  
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Matemax
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Re: Hecht-Reefschlager Variation
Reply #10 - 11/05/07 at 12:13:36
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I would play: 9...Qd5 10.Qg3 Bd7
a) 11.Qc7 (11.Qg7?? Rg8-+) Bc6 12.Qg3 0-0 and if now 13.Bh6 then Qg2 -+
b) 11.c4! Qc6 12.Td1 (idea 12...0-0?! 13.Bg5 with attack) 0-0-0!? 13.Be3 h5 and interesting play for black (for what you play this variation  Smiley)
  
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Re: Hecht-Reefschlager Variation
Reply #9 - 11/04/07 at 22:10:31
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Matemax wrote on 11/04/07 at 21:16:36:
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bd3 Bb4 6.O-O Bxc3 7.exd5!
7...Nd4 looks interesting

This forces white to sacrifice a pawn after 8.bxc3 Nxf3 9.Qxf3, but I feel white gets more than enough compensation: 9...exd5 10.Ba3 or 9...Nxd5 10.Qg3 or 9...Qxd5 10.Qg3.
What do you think?
  
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Re: Hecht-Reefschlager Variation
Reply #8 - 11/04/07 at 21:16:36
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1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bd3 Bb4 6.O-O Bxc3 7.exd5!

7...Nd4 looks interesting
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Hecht-Reefschlager Variation
Reply #7 - 11/02/07 at 23:04:45
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Three great posts! -- thanks chaps! I'm away from home at the moment, but will reconnect with a chessboard soon!
  
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Re: Hecht-Reefschlager Variation
Reply #6 - 11/02/07 at 21:32:09
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Maybe 6.0-0! is the reason why Rozentalis has been preferring 5.Bd3 Nb4 - ?
  
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Re: Hecht-Reefschlager Variation
Reply #5 - 11/02/07 at 12:50:21
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Quote:
Incidentally, when I gave Rybka (1.0) this position, it came out with the weird 6 0-0!?. What's this?, I thought, but soon the idea became clear: 6 ...Bc3 7 ed!. My snap thought was that after 7 ...Bb2 8 Bb2 Qd5 Black should be all right, but I certainly haven't looked at this closely. I hadn't seen this interesting tactic before -- are there any other opening lines in which it occurs?


1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bd3 Bb4 6.O-O Bxc3 7.exd5!
What an annoying move!! I think that in your sample variation 7...Bxb2 8.Bxb2 Qxd5 white is just better after 9.c4!
In fact, in all variations I've looked at so far, I like white's chances better  Sad

edit: on reflection, I think best is the simple 7...exd5 8.bxc3 0-0 with a kind of exchange French that should be defendable, even if I don't like it.
« Last Edit: 11/02/07 at 18:04:33 by linksspringer »  
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Re: Hecht-Reefschlager Variation
Reply #4 - 11/02/07 at 12:07:54
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For starters, I don't necessarily think that the immediate 6...h6 is best. Watson recommends 6...dxe4 7Bxe4 and only then 7...h6!

He gives a couple of examples continuations, probably the best is the one shown below. Watson quotes this in his Dangerous Weapons book. I think Black is doing fine here.

Wedberg,T (2465) - Kengis,E (2575) [C10]
Haninge Haninge (3), 1992

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bd3 Bb4 6.Bg5 dxe4 7.Bxe4 h6 8.Bxf6 Qxf6 9.0-0 0-0 10.Qd3 Bd7 11.Rad1 Rad8 12.Rfe1 Bd6 13.a3 Rfe8 14.Nb5 a6 15.Nxd6 cxd6 16.c4 b5 17.b3 bxc4 18.bxc4 Rb8 19.Qc3 Rec8 20.Rb1 d5 21.Bd3 dxc4 22.Bxc4 Rxb1 23.Rxb1 Ne7 24.Qd3 a5 25.Ba6 Rd8 26.Qc3 a4 27.Bb7 Nf5 28.h3 Be8 29.Rb4 ½-½

I think White has to push e5 at some stage to get an advantage in this line. Even then, its not clear how great an edge he can get as ...Nc6 constantly attacks the d4 pawn, so White has to tolerate a knight on e4 for several moves.
I've tried the HR a few times on the internet, I think 4e5 is also quite difficult to meet. Maybe its just a case adjusting to a new variation but the typical French moves don't work anymore, instead you need to develop in an entirely different way.

  
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Re: Hecht-Reefschlager Variation
Reply #3 - 11/02/07 at 01:00:25
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I see what you mean!

Maybe there'll be some more enthusiasm along in a minute. Meanwhile, perhaps I can partly revise my question above on 6 Bg5. Rightly or wrongly, I took it that Black's traditional response of 6 ...h6 is best -- I didn't like the look of the other lines. Now several sources give 7 Bf6 Qf6 8 0-0 Bc3 9 bc 0-0 10 Qe2!? as a bit better for White, usually on the basis of the ancient game Ilyin-Zhenevsky--Nenarokov, Moscow 1924, and I confess I had just assumed this to be correct. But is it? The game continued 10 ...Bd7 11 Nd2, and here Nenarokov's 11 ...Rfd8 looks very odd to me. I showed the position to a couple of engines, which favoured 11 ...Qf4!?, with possible ideas of playing ...f5 or meeting g2--g3 with ...Qd6--Qa3. At any rate the position is very rich and complex, and surely of the "The better/more resourceful player will win" type, so I don't think Black should necessarily be too worried. I wondered, though, if White could go 10 Nd2 immediately, borrowing an idea from a well-known line of Owen's Defence.

Thoughts?  Incidentally, when I gave Rybka (1.0) this position, it came out with the weird 6 0-0!?. What's this?, I thought, but soon the idea became clear: 6 ...Bc3 7 ed!. My snap thought was that after 7 ...Bb2 8 Bb2 Qd5 Black should be all right, but I certainly haven't looked at this closely. I hadn't seen this interesting tactic before -- are there any other opening lines in which it occurs?



  
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Re: Hecht-Reefschlager Variation
Reply #2 - 10/30/07 at 16:36:57
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I am tempted to start playing the French just so I can play this variation, for obvious reasons.
  
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Re: Hecht-Reefschlager Variation
Reply #1 - 10/30/07 at 15:31:21
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Funny to see that 3...Nc6 may stand up after 3. Nc3, while after 3. Nd2 it fell victim of the fine Nd2-f1-e3 regrouping Smiley
  
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Michael Ayton
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C10: Hecht-Reefschlager Variation
10/30/07 at 14:45:05
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There have been a few comments on this line (2 d4 d5 3 Nc3 Nc6!?) in the 1 ...Nc6 thread in the Daring Defences section, but I'm not sure there's a separate thread on this interesting line, so I thought I'd start one.

I have a question. How should Black handle the position after 4 Nf3 Nf6 5 Bd3 Bb4 6 Bg5? This looks to me rather awkward for Black, but perhaps I just haven't seen the correct defence yet.
« Last Edit: 07/30/11 at 14:11:25 by dom »  
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