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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C10-C14: Classical French: Dynamic? (Read 23066 times)
Bibs
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Re: Classical French: Dynamic?
Reply #25 - 11/14/07 at 08:05:49
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To assist/inspire.

Games by Nenashev/Graf and Akobian as black.
Alternatives to 7...0-0.
7..a6 and 7...Nb6.

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1411774
and
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1398814

Premise I think - if you have more useful stuff to be getting on with, then get on with it rather than castle.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Classical French: Dynamic?
Reply #24 - 11/13/07 at 21:28:03
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Indeed, the German grandmaster Schmittdiel used to play 7...a6, followed right away by ...b5, ...b4 and ...a5.  That was mentioned rather favorably in Lev Psakhis's old book on the French (i.e. before he broke it up into several volumes), but I couldn't say what its current theoretical status is.
  
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Re: Classical French: Dynamic?
Reply #23 - 11/13/07 at 20:37:49
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The nice thing of 7...a6 is, that it offers a solution to the bad bishop problem: ...b5, b4, a5, Ba6.
  

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Re: Classical French: Dynamic?
Reply #22 - 11/13/07 at 19:20:06
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Markovich wrote on 11/13/07 at 16:07:01:
I'm worried about the bad bishop in general with this system, actually.  You can get it outside the pawn chain via e8 and still be condemned to inferiority by your need to defend e6.  I wish I had more experience with these positions.  Oviously I need to study some model games.


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Re: Classical French: Dynamic?
Reply #21 - 11/13/07 at 16:07:01
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The way the ebook here leaves it, 6...c5! 7.Bxe7 Kxe7 is an adequate reply to the Alekhine-Chatard.  The citation is Gabrielian - Nikolenko, Moscow 2006. E.g. 8.dxc5 Nxe5 9.Qe2 Nbc6 10.0-0-0 Qa5! 11.f4 d4! (for more, pay up and see the update or the full game with comments).  If that resource is not sufficient, an update is urgently needed.  Petersen's book, which of course was printed before this game was played, omits this equalizing idea. 

(Petersen's book is rather weak in general, though, concerning 4.Bg5; many lines are just stone cold omitted.  For that matter, the ebook lavishes attention on the Rubinstein and Burn and treats the Classical proper quite briefly by comparison.) 

Secondly I think that 6...0-0 is good against the Alekhine-Chatard, although White can of course draw with 7.Bd3 c5 8.Qh5 g6 9.Qh6 cxd4 10.Nf3 Nxe5 11.Nxe5 dxc3 12.Nxg6.  Petersen thinks that White can play for a win in that line, but I looked, and I seriously doubt it.

Now in the Classical proper after 6.Bxe7 Qxe7 7.f4, I wonder what the opinion here is concerning the relative merits of 7...0-0 and 7...a6.  I understand that 7...a6 is the more popular at high levels, but as a novice in this system, I thought I should study 7...0-0 as well.  Oddly, 7...0-0 8.Nf3 c5 9.dxc5! is not in the ebook here.  Petersen opines that 9...Qxc5 10.Bd3 Qe3+ 11.Ne2 Nc6 12.Qd2 Qxd2+ 13.Kxd2 is only a little worse for Black; I don't know, I'm worried about the bad bishop.

I'm worried about the bad bishop in general with this system, actually.  You can get it outside the pawn chain via e8 and still be condemned to inferiority by your need to defend e6.  I wish I had more experience with these positions.  Oviously I need to study some model games.
  

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Re: Classical French: Dynamic?
Reply #20 - 11/13/07 at 04:30:18
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I dont' face the too many players over 2300 FIDE, so my opinion is based on play against NMs and FMs mostly.  I have found that I can score quite well against the Steinitz as Black, but I usually have to suffer through an uncomfortable defense for quite a while before my game starts looking ok. 

I guess I'm probably stronger at defending long-term threats than the immediate threats one has to deal with in lines such as the Alekhin-Chatard.  It's either that or the Alekhin-Chatard is just better for White than the Steinitz.  I get the impression from GM practice that Black concurs most of the time and after 4.Bg5 plays 4...de4 most often to avoid the sort of crush that Korchnoi suffered against Kasparov a few years ago in the A-C.
  
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Re: Classical French: Dynamic?
Reply #19 - 11/12/07 at 13:53:43
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I also from Blacks point of view am more worried about 4.e5 than 4.Bg5, although of course we are talking pretty abstract stuff here - there are dangers in both.
As White the practical value of 4. e5 is that it avoids both the ...dxe4 lines and the MacCutcheon. That said there are a million ways for Black to play in the Steinitz also.
  
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Re: Classical French: Dynamic?
Reply #18 - 11/11/07 at 05:46:18
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winawer77 wrote on 11/02/07 at 11:57:40:
I've recently switched from the Winawer to the Classical. But before doing so I had to solve the problem of  4Bg5.

Firstly, 4e5 is ok for Black, his play is natural and his centre solid. Think of a opposite-side castling Sicilian pawn storm position with a blocked centre, thats basically what you get.

4Bg5 is much more difficult to generate chances against. For a long time I had played the Burn variation, which is not as dull and passive as you might think. After 1e4 e6 2d4 d5 3Nc3 Nf6 4Bg5 dxe4 5Nxe4 Be7 6Bxf6 I started out with 6...gxf6 and often got active play. However, these positions (to me, at least) are quite difficult to handle for Black as you both have to keep an eye on your exposed King, as well as being careful not to allow an awful endgame where the broken K-side pawns will suffer. After this I decided that the MacCutcheon was the way to go. I've only played it 6 or so times in the past few months I've taken it up, but so far I have no losses and plenty of wins. I'm also holding out theoretically and practically against stronger players. I think it is an excellent variation, and well worth the time invested studying it. Its a nice mixture of the Winawer and Classical, with the pawn structure and activity of the former, and the solidity of the latter.

About the Classical proper. On a personal level, not only have I never much liked these positions, but I also think that they give White the position he desires. From tournaments I've played at, White mostly goes for the Alekhine-Chatard attack. If you want to take up the Classical proper, then take a look at Zeigler's Chessbase DVD, its a good introduction.



My experiences are similar to yours. I think the MacCutcheon is really the only way for me to play against 4. Bg5. But recently I lost miserably to a FM in a few rapid games starting with 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Bb4 5. e5 h6 6. Be3 Ne4 7. Qg4 g6 8. a3 Bxc3+ 9. bxc3 Nxc3 10. Bd3 Nc6 11. h4 Ne7 12. h5 g5 13. Ne2! (much better than 13. f3 which is unclear) where after 13.. Nxe2 14. Qxe2 I think Black is slightly worse.

Black is up a pawn, but ironically, the more pieces Black exchanges, the easier for White to use the open b file or exploit Black's kingside weaknesses. Later I found out from the database that Nepomniatchi also lost to Najer in this line (Najer-Nepomniatchi Moscow 2006), but he was willing to repeat it in Spoelman-Nepomniatchi Corus 2007 so who knows. This was also recommended by Watson for White in Dangerous Weapons.
  
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Re: Classical French: Dynamic?
Reply #17 - 11/11/07 at 02:13:09
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Yes there is.

7...a6

can be punted.

Remember this was a speciality of some top Warwickshire/Birmingham (UK, not Alabama) juniors of around 2200+ strength from about 20 years back. Was interesting when it became quite a big idea  some years later.
  
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Re: Classical French: Dynamic?
Reply #16 - 11/11/07 at 01:50:32
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Isn't this one of the main lines against the classical. I though black here pretty much has a draw. Not very Dynamic, lol. Is there something better? On Ziegler's DVD, he gives a line what black is holding. Then if I am right, I think black can sack a pawn, but that is supposed to be drawish (but black has some play). I am not an expert here, is there maybe an earlier move black can play not to go into this variation.

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Be7 5. e5 Nfd7 6. Bxe7 Qxe7 7. f4 O-O 8.
Nf3 c5 9. dxc5 Nc6 10. Bd3 f6 11. exf6 Qxf6 12. g3 Nxc5 13. O-O
  
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Re: Classical French: Dynamic?
Reply #15 - 11/03/07 at 15:13:32
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Stigma wrote on 11/03/07 at 14:41:26:
P.S. 4...dxe4 may be a theoretical concession, but in recent practice Black has some of the most respectable scores in the Nc3-French (and indeed of all defences to 1.e4) with the lines 4.Bg5 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Be7 6.Bxf6 gxf6 and 4.Bg5 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Nbd7 6.Nf3 h6, a score that remains at 44-47% even if one looks only at titled games. Of course, part of this may be explained by white players getting bored, in particular with the latter line...

Well this is indeed the line that made me explore the 4.e5 line. Somehow it lacks the punch that white has in the analogous CK and 3...dxe4 lines in the French.
  

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Re: Classical French: Dynamic?
Reply #14 - 11/03/07 at 14:41:26
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Dismissive was probably too strong a word, I just wanted to explore why the concensus (apparently) was different from my own impressions. Thanks for the clarification, Paddy. Surely strong GMs will continue to play both 4.e5 and 4.Bg5, I don't expect this issue to be resolved any time soon.

P.S. 4...dxe4 may be a theoretical concession, but in recent practice Black has some of the most respectable scores in the Nc3-French (and indeed of all defences to 1.e4) with the lines 4.Bg5 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Be7 6.Bxf6 gxf6 and 4.Bg5 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Nbd7 6.Nf3 h6, a score that remains at 44-47% even if one looks only at titled games. Of course, part of this may be explained by white players getting bored, in particular with the latter line...
  

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Re: Classical French: Dynamic?
Reply #13 - 11/03/07 at 13:56:57
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Stigma wrote on 11/03/07 at 01:57:02:
I don't really understand why people here are so dismissive of White's chances for advantage after 4.e5. Undecided


I for one certainly didn't intend to sound "dismissive" of 4. e5; it remains a challenge for Black and it is no accident that 4 e5 Nfd7 5 f4 c5 6 Nf3 Nc6 7 Be3 is the recommendation in the Opening for White According to Anand series.

I did a survey of games reaching this position played from January 2005 and the present between players both rated 2200+. I found 511 games, and White scored slightly above average with 57%. However, when I broke the figures down by variation I found Black achieving very acceptable results in certain sub-variations.

What I wrote in my earlier post was: "I find it very strange that 4 e5 is all the rage, since not only is it open to the theoretical objection that Black retains his better bishop but you can argue that it is not even the most practical choice, since Black has a wide choice of playable systems." I stand by this. My view is that 4 e5 is strong - after all, it gains space with no loss of time and it avoids exchanges when Black is cramped - but 4 Bg5 is most likely even stronger, since it forces a concession from Black: surrender of the centre with 4...dxe4, or loss of his strong bishop after 4...Bb4 or 4...Be7.
  
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Re: Classical French: Dynamic?
Reply #12 - 11/03/07 at 11:02:57
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Quote:
For his main game with 11...Be7 Khalifman gives the game Nijboer-Stellwagen (2002); however, after the moves: 1.e4 d6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 a6 11.Nb3 Be7 12.h4 b5 13.Rh3 Bb7 14.Kb1 Qc7 15.h5 b4 16.Na4 Na5 17.Rg3 he doesn't mention the move 17...Bg6, which I think seems to leave black okay.


I assume you mean 17...Bc6, that's the only sensible bishop move I could find in this position  Smiley I will have to look at this. I haven't really studied the cxd4 lines since I mainly tried to make 7...a6 8.Qd2 b5 work, a la Morozevich, Kiriakov et al. But there after 9.a3 White's position always seemed easier to play. Thanks for the input!
  

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Re: Classical French: Dynamic?
Reply #11 - 11/03/07 at 04:42:32
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I don't agree with Khalifman's analysis of the move 11...Be7 after 11.Nb3. This would also be the position if after 7...cxd4 white then played his knight from f3 to b3 in one move taking the pawn on d4 as well, (is this a good move?) and then play went 8...Be7 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 a6 (reaching the same position a move earlier). For his main game with 11...Be7 Khalifman gives the game Nijboer-Stellwagen (2002); however, after the moves: 1.e4 d6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 10.0-0-0 a6 11.Nb3 Be7 12.h4 b5 13.Rh3 Bb7 14.Kb1 Qc7 15.h5 b4 16.Na4 Na5 17.Rg3 he doesn't mention the move 17...Bc6 (edit), which I think seems to leave black okay. I've analyzed this move in depth with Rybka and black seems to be fine as far as I can tell. I've also looked at some of the other variations after 11...Be7 and black seems to be fine there too. My intuition is that 7...Be7 looks like a solid move as well, where it may turn out that white is a little better but not much better.
« Last Edit: 11/03/07 at 14:18:53 by whiteatak shredder »  
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