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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Mikenas/Flohr System (Read 31394 times)
MNb
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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #12 - 11/05/07 at 20:45:18
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Nothing. White often plays 1.c4 to avoid the NID and thus choses the Mikenas. I might add, that 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.d4 Bb4 still may transpose to the NID.
  

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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #11 - 11/05/07 at 20:23:00
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Markovich wrote on 11/05/07 at 15:30:50:
Well, no one plays the English for the purpose of avoiding the QGD. Further, White doesn't have to allow a Ragozin or a Semi-Tarrasch after 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.d4, as he does after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3: it's a main line QGD with all White's options still open -- including the Exchange with Nge2. Black's only path to a Semi-Slav now is 4...c6, which is just plain inferior with Black's knight already on f6 and White's not on f3.  So if 2...e6 and 3...d5 is your answer to the English, you might as well drop the Nimzo, since White can always get his uncompromised QGD via 1.c4.


My point was about the line 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nf3 (or various other move-orders to the same position) and now 4...Bb4 4.g4!? was mentioned by Kosten. So white's knight IS already on f3. As far as I can see, it is entirely possible to have a consistent repertoire with the Nimzo-Indian, the Semi-slav (or Ragozin etc.), and the Mikenas System, while consistently avoiding both the Marshall Gambit and the Exchange with Nge2. I.e. after 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e6:
- 3.e4 Mikenas
- 3.d4 Bb4 Nimzo-Indian
- 3.Nf3 d5 4.d4 Queen's Gambit with white committed to Nf3
- 3.g3 d5 a strange Catalan

What am I missing?
  

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Markovich
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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #10 - 11/05/07 at 19:53:56
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Alias wrote on 11/05/07 at 17:56:20:
Markovich wrote on 11/05/07 at 15:30:50:
Stigma wrote on 11/05/07 at 14:25:33:
GMTonyKosten wrote on 11/05/07 at 11:14:51:
I completely agree, and as a Nimzo player I would like to play this way against the English, but very rarely do, as apart from the Mikenas there is also the 4 g4 stuff which can be quite dangerous. Sad


Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the feasibility of 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e6 for black depend as much on what one plays beside the Nimzo-Indian, i.e. one's main choice against 1.d4/2.c4/3.Nf3? If one has a Queen's Gambit available (semi-slav, ragozin, orthodox etc) then 3.Nf3 d5, If one has the symmetrical english ...e6 lines (and the Modern Benoni) then 3.Nf3 c5.

Perhaps 3.Nf3 Bb4 4.g4 (or Qb3, or Qc2) is mainly a concern for Bogo-Indian or Queen's Indian players?


Well, no one plays the English for the purpose of avoiding the QGD. Further, White doesn't have to allow a Ragozin or a Semi-Tarrasch after 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.d4, as he does after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3: it's a main line QGD with all White's options still open -- including the Exchange with Nge2. Black's only path to a Semi-Slav now is 4...c6, which is just plain inferior with Black's knight already on f6 and White's not on f3.  So if 2...e6 and 3...d5 is your answer to the English, you might as well drop the Nimzo, since White can always get his uncompromised QGD via 1.c4.


One option vs e6/d5 is the Reti. Some players actually play the English/Reti to avoid the QGD (+ some other d4 openings). Do you include the slav in the QGD family? Then 1.c4 c6 2.e4 is a way of avoiding it.


Yes, it's possible for White to play 1.c4 yet avoid the QGD; I was exaggerating.  My point however was, it's rather futile for Black to "play the Nimzo" and then accede to a QGD if 1.c4 is played.  One might as well play the QGD, period, since White can always come through his 1.c4 door and avoid the Nimzo.
  

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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #9 - 11/05/07 at 17:56:20
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Markovich wrote on 11/05/07 at 15:30:50:
Stigma wrote on 11/05/07 at 14:25:33:
GMTonyKosten wrote on 11/05/07 at 11:14:51:
I completely agree, and as a Nimzo player I would like to play this way against the English, but very rarely do, as apart from the Mikenas there is also the 4 g4 stuff which can be quite dangerous. Sad


Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the feasibility of 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e6 for black depend as much on what one plays beside the Nimzo-Indian, i.e. one's main choice against 1.d4/2.c4/3.Nf3? If one has a Queen's Gambit available (semi-slav, ragozin, orthodox etc) then 3.Nf3 d5, If one has the symmetrical english ...e6 lines (and the Modern Benoni) then 3.Nf3 c5.

Perhaps 3.Nf3 Bb4 4.g4 (or Qb3, or Qc2) is mainly a concern for Bogo-Indian or Queen's Indian players?


Well, no one plays the English for the purpose of avoiding the QGD. Further, White doesn't have to allow a Ragozin or a Semi-Tarrasch after 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.d4, as he does after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3: it's a main line QGD with all White's options still open -- including the Exchange with Nge2. Black's only path to a Semi-Slav now is 4...c6, which is just plain inferior with Black's knight already on f6 and White's not on f3.  So if 2...e6 and 3...d5 is your answer to the English, you might as well drop the Nimzo, since White can always get his uncompromised QGD via 1.c4.


One option vs e6/d5 is the Reti. Some players actually play the English/Reti to avoid the QGD (+ some other d4 openings). Do you include the slav in the QGD family? Then 1.c4 c6 2.e4 is a way of avoiding it.
  

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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #8 - 11/05/07 at 15:36:48
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Willempie wrote on 11/05/07 at 14:06:42:
Isnt 3..e5 a cute option? Followed by Nc6/Bb4/exd4 in some order.
At the very least it should be very unfamiliar territory for the English player.


4. f4 (played way back by Eliskases) has been claimed to lead to a clear advantage for White.  I might have thought that 4. g3 (with the idea of a Botvinnik set-up or perhaps a later d2-d4 in some cases) should be promising too, though I presume there could be some funky tries along the lines of 4...Bc5 5. Bg2 d6 6. Nge2 Ng4 7. 0-0 h5 (8. h3 h4).  Or has this all been covered in "Secrets of Opening Surprises"?     Tongue

But in the line 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. g3 Bb4 4. Bg2 0-0 5. e4, Black sometimes plays ...Nc6 and regroups with ...Bc5 (along with moves like ...0-0, ...d6 and ...a6), so maybe it's fine  for Black to play in that vein in the Mikenas after 3...e5 4. g3 (i.e. Black could be regaining his lost tempo, so to speak).
  
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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #7 - 11/05/07 at 15:30:50
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Stigma wrote on 11/05/07 at 14:25:33:
GMTonyKosten wrote on 11/05/07 at 11:14:51:
I completely agree, and as a Nimzo player I would like to play this way against the English, but very rarely do, as apart from the Mikenas there is also the 4 g4 stuff which can be quite dangerous. Sad


Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the feasibility of 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e6 for black depend as much on what one plays beside the Nimzo-Indian, i.e. one's main choice against 1.d4/2.c4/3.Nf3? If one has a Queen's Gambit available (semi-slav, ragozin, orthodox etc) then 3.Nf3 d5, If one has the symmetrical english ...e6 lines (and the Modern Benoni) then 3.Nf3 c5.

Perhaps 3.Nf3 Bb4 4.g4 (or Qb3, or Qc2) is mainly a concern for Bogo-Indian or Queen's Indian players?


Well, no one plays the English for the purpose of avoiding the QGD. Further, White doesn't have to allow a Ragozin or a Semi-Tarrasch after 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.d4, as he does after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3: it's a main line QGD with all White's options still open -- including the Exchange with Nge2. Black's only path to a Semi-Slav now is 4...c6, which is just plain inferior with Black's knight already on f6 and White's not on f3.  So if 2...e6 and 3...d5 is your answer to the English, you might as well drop the Nimzo, since White can always get his uncompromised QGD via 1.c4.
  

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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #6 - 11/05/07 at 14:25:33
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 11/05/07 at 11:14:51:
I completely agree, and as a Nimzo player I would like to play this way against the English, but very rarely do, as apart from the Mikenas there is also the 4 g4 stuff which can be quite dangerous. Sad


Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the feasibility of 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e6 for black depend as much on what one plays beside the Nimzo-Indian, i.e. one's main choice against 1.d4/2.c4/3.Nf3? If one has a Queen's Gambit available (semi-slav, ragozin, orthodox etc) then 3.Nf3 d5, If one has the symmetrical english ...e6 lines (and the Modern Benoni) then 3.Nf3 c5.

Perhaps 3.Nf3 Bb4 4.g4 (or Qb3, or Qc2) is mainly a concern for Bogo-Indian or Queen's Indian players?
  

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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #5 - 11/05/07 at 14:06:42
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Isnt 3..e5 a cute option? Followed by Nc6/Bb4/exd4 in some order.
At the very least it should be very unfamiliar territory for the English player.
  

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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #4 - 11/05/07 at 13:54:30
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I would add that I didn't have Tony's Dynamic English in mind in my earlier post - the repertoire he gives there starts with 1.c4 and 2.g3 so the Flohr-Mikenas doesn't feature at all!

I wonder what Craig Pritchett has in mind ... http://www.amazon.co.uk/Play-English-Complete-Opening-Repertoire/dp/1857445457/r...
  

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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #3 - 11/05/07 at 11:14:51
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alumbrado wrote on 11/05/07 at 09:18:27:
I have played this with both White and Black and my feeling is that black is playing with fire in the 3...c5 lines (which is not to say he stands worse objectively, but over the board it is very tricky).  3...d5 is safer but much less likely to produce wins.


I completely agree, and as a Nimzo player I would like to play this way against the English, but very rarely do, as apart from the Mikenas there is also the 4 g4 stuff which can be quite dangerous. Sad
  
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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #2 - 11/05/07 at 09:18:27
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The coverage of the Flohr-Mikenas on the main Chess Publishing site (the Flank Openings section) is by far the best to be found anywhere.  None of the recent publications on the English Opening do it justice.

I have played this with both White and Black and my feeling is that black is playing with fire in the 3...c5 lines (which is not to say he stands worse objectively, but over the board it is very tricky).  3...d5 is safer but much less likely to produce wins.  Incidentally, the modern trend in the line you give is to refrain from 7.d4 and first play Nf3, Bd3 0-0, Be4 and only then d4.
  

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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #1 - 11/05/07 at 07:15:05
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I have tended to prefer the other main line, 3...c5.  Then after 4. e5 Ng8 White can play 5. d4 cd 6. Qxd4 Nc6 7. Qe4, or sac a pawn for dark-square-based compensation with 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. d4 cd 7. Nxd4.
  
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Mikenas/Flohr System
11/05/07 at 02:27:11
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I was playing on the net one day when I met this system.

1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e6. As I am a nimzo player, I want to tranpose to nimzo indian. However, my opponent played 3.e4. I did not know how to play against this line during that game and lost terribly.

I did some research and found out that the way to play seems to be 3...d5 4.e5 d4 5.exf6 dxc3 6.bxc3 Qxf6 7.d4. However, I dont seem to like this position. Also, a lot of the games I saw ended in draws. (I searched my chessbase database.)

Does anyone have a suggestion on what I should play? Thanks.
  
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