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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Mikenas/Flohr System (Read 31402 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #27 - 11/15/07 at 02:53:18
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mefisto6 wrote on 11/14/07 at 13:46:40:
You can also simply avoid this system with the move order 1. c4 e6.
This is especially interesting if you are a hedgehog player.
The anti-hedgehog systems are fine for black.
e.g. 1. c4 e6 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 d5 or
1. c4 e6 2. Nc3 c5 3. g3 Nf6 4. Bg2 (e4 Nc6) d5 5. Nf3 d4.



Yes, there are ways to avoid the Mikenas system, but I don't see the relevance to the topic.
  
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mefisto6
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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #26 - 11/14/07 at 13:46:40
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You can also simply avoid this system with the move order 1. c4 e6.
This is especially interesting if you are a hedgehog player.
The anti-hedgehog systems are fine for black.
e.g. 1. c4 e6 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 d5 or
1. c4 e6 2. Nc3 c5 3. g3 Nf6 4. Bg2 (e4 Nc6) d5 5. Nf3 d4.
  
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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #25 - 11/13/07 at 13:01:21
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I wonder whether White can't gambit his e-pawn with 9.Nf3!? Nxe4 10.0-0.  Looks as if it could get quit dicey for Black.  But even if not, 9.Qe2 looks quite nice too at first glance.  More later - in an airport lounge and my flight has just been called!
  

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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #24 - 11/13/07 at 08:13:49
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alumbrado wrote on 11/12/07 at 20:24:23:
I think the way for White to go is (1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e6 3.e4 e5 4.f4 exf4) 5.d4 Bb4 6.Bd3 and if 6...c5 7.d5 (7.a3!? is quite interesting too) when I am not convinced that the Benoni structure is very good for Black with his bishop all the way over there on b4 - as someone who plays both the Nimzo and the Modern Benoni, I much prefer my bishop on g7 in these positions.  It may be that Black is OK here but it looks like a very risky way to play to me.

I am a Nimzo-Hubner fanboy myself and I dont really see the problem as I think you can get control of e5 unlike in the Benoni where there is always f4 or in the "closed" Hubner when black needs to redirect the horsies. The way I see it the play for black is quite simple though a bit passive and the execution very similar to the Budapes: Just put everything you have pointing to e5.
Ie 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e6 3.e4 e5 4.f4 exf4 5.d4 Bb4 6.Bd3 and if 6...c5 7.d5 Bxc3 8.bxc3 Qe7
-10.Qa4+ Nbd7 11.Nf3 0-0 (e5 is not possible yet I think) 12.0-0 Ng4 and e5 is still not possible.
-10.Qc2 Nbd7 followed by Ng4
-10Qe2 Bg4 11.Nf3 Nbd7 or 11.Qe3 Nbd7

Sure you are a bit cramped as black, but in the long run you should have the endgame of your dreams with that white bishop on d3.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #23 - 11/13/07 at 00:27:54
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mangler wrote on 11/12/07 at 21:59:45:
For those who are not so adventurous, please note that 1.c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 e6 3. e4 e5 can also be met by 4.Nf3, and if 4...Nc6 (what else?), white is a tempo up on the 4.e4 variation of the 4 knights English. Perhaps not so dangerous, but I would think white should get an edge with the extra move.


That's what I thought at first, but one must wonder.  It seems like the sort of position where White would almost prefer it to be Black's move.  For instance on 5. g3 Bc5, 6. Nxe5 is not on.  5. Be2 Bb4 produces a position where it seems White would rather be playing g3 and Bg2.   5. d4 seems critical, but in comparison to 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. d4, having the pawn on e4 already doesn't look like an unalloyed good (target for ...Bb4; even 5...ed 6. Nxd4 Nxe4 [like a line in the Scotch] comes to mind but is bad).  Or comparing 5. d4 Bb4 or 5. d4 ed 6. Nxd4 Bb4 to their Scotch counterparts, might not the c4-pawn interfere with some 4th-rank stuff by White's queen?

5. d3 may offer an edge in the case of the tempo-up normal line which arises after 5...Bb4 6. g3, but Black can play 5...Bc5 (then 6. Nxe5 and d4 loses back the tempo and transposes to a normal line which is supposed to be about equal).  5. a3 is a thought (à la the 4. a3 Four Knights English, or the Mengarini thing in the Vienna), but is that likely to lead to any advantage after, for example, 5...g6?  I suppose one plausible line is 6. d4 ed 7. Nxd4 Bg7 (7...Nxe4 bad) 8. Be3 0-0 9. Be2 Re8 10. f3 d6, producing a KID which is reckoned to be slightly better for White without the extra move a3, but the inclusion of that move looks like it has "negative usefulness" for White.      
  
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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #22 - 11/12/07 at 21:59:45
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For those who are not so adventurous, please note that 1.c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 e6 3. e4 e5 can also be met by 4.Nf3, and if 4...Nc6 (what else?), white is a tempo up on the 4.e4 variation of the 4 knights English. Perhaps not so dangerous, but I would think white should get an edge with the extra move.
  
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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #21 - 11/12/07 at 20:24:23
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I think the way for White to go is (1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e6 3.e4 e5 4.f4 exf4) 5.d4 Bb4 6.Bd3 and if 6...c5 7.d5 (7.a3!? is quite interesting too) when I am not convinced that the Benoni structure is very good for Black with his bishop all the way over there on b4 - as someone who plays both the Nimzo and the Modern Benoni, I much prefer my bishop on g7 in these positions.  It may be that Black is OK here but it looks like a very risky way to play to me.
  

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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #20 - 11/12/07 at 08:51:04
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MarinFan wrote on 11/12/07 at 08:37:10:
Hello,

Yes, I agree with Alumbrado, when I had quick look at it found that Alekhine had played a few games with f4 in the tempo down situation. In that case black could play Bc5, and not have too many problems, but here d6 looks forced, and black's game does not look very attractive.

Bye John S

1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e6 3.e4 e5 4.f4 exf4 5.e5 Ng8 6.Nf3 h6 7.d4 g5
What's wrong with this for black?
Looks like a very weird form of the Kieseritsky gambit if h4 follows at some point. That pawn on c4 is really hurting white and I think it even has to move.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #19 - 11/12/07 at 08:37:10
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Hello,

Yes, I agree with Alumbrado, when I had quick look at it found that Alekhine had played a few games with f4 in the tempo down situation. In that case black could play Bc5, and not have too many problems, but here d6 looks forced, and black's game does not look very attractive.

Bye John S
  
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Willempie
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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #18 - 11/12/07 at 08:35:53
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alumbrado wrote on 11/11/07 at 16:23:02:
exigentsky wrote on 11/09/07 at 20:29:14:
I actually like the surprising e5 move against this system. Black has a solid position and the tempo won't mean much.


Do you mean (1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e6 3.e4) 3...e5(!?) ?

If so, what is your answer to 4.f4(!)? Seems to give a sort of Vienna or King's Gambit Declined, where the extra move (c2-c4) means Black cannot play 4...d5.  Obviously White is not as aggressively placed as his Bf1 cannot come to c4, but in the longer run he seems well placed to control the centre (and a good hypermodernist can't ask for more than that!).

I think 4..exf4 is decent enough, after 5.d4 there is Bb4 followed by c5 and 4.e5 Ng8 leaves ideas of the "classical" KG with g5 and h6. I really dont think much of these KGA positions without a bishop on c4 (or b5).

Plus there is also 4..d6 leaving a huge hole on d4.
  

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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #17 - 11/11/07 at 16:23:02
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exigentsky wrote on 11/09/07 at 20:29:14:
I actually like the surprising e5 move against this system. Black has a solid position and the tempo won't mean much.


Do you mean (1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e6 3.e4) 3...e5(!?) ?

If so, what is your answer to 4.f4(!)? Seems to give a sort of Vienna or King's Gambit Declined, where the extra move (c2-c4) means Black cannot play 4...d5.  Obviously White is not as aggressively placed as his Bf1 cannot come to c4, but in the longer run he seems well placed to control the centre (and a good hypermodernist can't ask for more than that!).
  

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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #16 - 11/11/07 at 00:29:27
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Eh, does that mean I have to learn a new line? Sad
  
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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #15 - 11/09/07 at 20:29:14
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I actually like the surprising e5 move against this system. Black has a solid position and the tempo won't mean much.
  
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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #14 - 11/06/07 at 13:09:48
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Stigma wrote on 11/05/07 at 20:23:00:
Markovich wrote on 11/05/07 at 15:30:50:
Well, no one plays the English for the purpose of avoiding the QGD. Further, White doesn't have to allow a Ragozin or a Semi-Tarrasch after 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.d4, as he does after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3: it's a main line QGD with all White's options still open -- including the Exchange with Nge2. Black's only path to a Semi-Slav now is 4...c6, which is just plain inferior with Black's knight already on f6 and White's not on f3.  So if 2...e6 and 3...d5 is your answer to the English, you might as well drop the Nimzo, since White can always get his uncompromised QGD via 1.c4.


My point was about the line 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nf3 (or various other move-orders to the same position) and now 4...Bb4 4.g4!? was mentioned by Kosten. So white's knight IS already on f3. As far as I can see, it is entirely possible to have a consistent repertoire with the Nimzo-Indian, the Semi-slav (or Ragozin etc.), and the Mikenas System, while consistently avoiding both the Marshall Gambit and the Exchange with Nge2. I.e. after 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e6:
- 3.e4 Mikenas
- 3.d4 Bb4 Nimzo-Indian
- 3.Nf3 d5 4.d4 Queen's Gambit with white committed to Nf3
- 3.g3 d5 a strange Catalan

What am I missing?


I now see your point.  I thought you were advocating some way around the Mikenas System, which of course, Black must confront if he wants play Nimzo-like against the English.  Personally I would much sooner play 1...e5 or 1...c5 than play the black side of the Mikenas, but that's another issue.
  

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Re: Mikenas/Flohr System
Reply #13 - 11/06/07 at 08:34:57
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Hello,

In the Milenas/Flohr System itself in the 3... c5 line there were two Kasparov games, that put top level black players off playing this. This was sometime ago now, so maybe there are repairs for black. (Alumbrado seems to think this is the case).
                    In the 3.Nf3 Bb4 4.g4 line as somebody mentioned in another thread 4... g6 4Rg1 b6 or d6 look ok for black, and Michael Adams as also played 4...BxN immediately. The main problem maybe is that these positions are quite unusual,and not very well covered in English books. So two areas were chess publishing could be useful.

Bye John S
  
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