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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Getting the Bird and not Liking It (Read 14229 times)
Glenn Snow
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Re: Getting the Bird and not Liking It
Reply #26 - 11/27/07 at 23:02:51
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A few more things to think about:

After 1.f4 d6, White can also play 2.Nc3 which has been discussed more than once here.

Probably some variant of the ...d5, ...Bg4 (recipe) is OK for Black, but what about ...Bf5 system especially if White plays an early e3.  Probably ...Bg4 is safer.

Finally, I think 1...f5 is a pretty good move for Black if followed up correctly.  1.f4 f5 2.e4 dxe4! (2...e6!?) just maybe gives White enough comp for the pawn.  1.f4 f5 2.b3 b6(!) 3.Bb2 e6 looks OK for Black to me.  The idea being to avoid a situation where White can fianchetto his king-bishop without Black being able to queenside fianchetto and to avoid Bb2xNf6 where Black has to take back with a pawn.
  
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Re: Getting the Bird and not Liking It
Reply #25 - 11/27/07 at 03:16:10
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Hello All:

Just got Tim Taylor's book and he has 18 pages on ...Bg4. He calls it "The Recipe" due to the fact that most authors give this as the way to handle the Bird.

Take care,

Gerry

Black_Widow wrote on 11/26/07 at 16:18:43:
........

Real analysis about this idea I do not know. Also what Yrjola gives in his book, I would not really like to call an analysis. Basicly it is a game played with this variation with an assessment of a decisive advantage for black.

  
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MNb
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Re: Getting the Bird and not Liking It
Reply #24 - 11/26/07 at 20:44:47
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Black_Widow wrote on 11/26/07 at 20:17:40:
1. f4 d6 2 e4 Nf6 3 Nc3 g6, and now 4 Bc4, which gives interesting play, but theoretical almost virgin ground.


I have tried this a few times via the Pirc move order: 1.e4 d6 2.f4 etc. Black plays 4...Bg7, 5...0-0, 6...c6, 7...b5 and grabs the initiative on the queen's wing. In the mean time playing d2-d4 is unattractive for White, as Bc4 will be misplaced.
  

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Black_Widow
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Re: Getting the Bird and not Liking It
Reply #23 - 11/26/07 at 20:17:40
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1. f4 d6 2 e4 Nf6 3 Nc3 g6, and now 4 Bc4 (4 d4 gives an austrian attack, as Yrjola gives), which gives interesting play, but theoretical almost virgin ground.

However:
1 f4 d6 2 e4 d5! is I think is here the critical situation. And I think Yrjola pulls conclusions in this line too qucikly, however it think it is totally unclear how to asses it. It looks like a reversed scandinavian, however it is a little simplistic to call the english a reversed sicilian, and then draw conclusions based on that. Trying to squeeze out with 3 d3, I do not think it is worse for white, but the advantage if any looks very small to me, however I would not be surprised, if some endgame specialists would obtain great results in such position.

The other critical line looks to me:
1. f4 d6 2. Nf3 Bg4 3. e3 e5 4. h3, also unclear to me how to assess it.

  
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Re: Getting the Bird and not Liking It
Reply #22 - 11/26/07 at 19:15:22
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Many people say that 1. f4 d6 2. e4 d5 is a bad scandinavian for White, but what if White insists with 3. d3 ? not sure if Black gains something by swapping queens, and else it's certainly a regular Bird ?
  
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Black_Widow
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Re: Getting the Bird and not Liking It
Reply #21 - 11/26/07 at 16:18:43
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I never had in a game, or internet game 1 f4 d6 2 Nf3 Bg4. So I never gave it a real analysis. Although I agree it is an interesting idea for black.

Real analysis about this idea I do not know. Also what Yrjola gives in his book, I would not really like to call an analysis. Basicly it is a game played with this variation with an assessment of a decisive advantage for black.
  
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Re: Getting the Bird and not Liking It
Reply #20 - 11/23/07 at 01:08:39
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As a former 1.f4 player, I used to be annoyed with early ...Bg4 lines.  I don't think they bust the Bird, but if you are looking for something straightforward and easy to play that will likely frustrate White, you could do worse.  For what it's worth, I thought the very brief section in Yrjola & Tella's book was rather good.  Have a look at:

1.f4 d6
  

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MNb
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Re: Getting the Bird and not Liking It
Reply #19 - 11/20/07 at 20:51:31
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The first moves are 1.f4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 (g6 is also a good option) 3.e4 e6 4.d3 g6 5.Be2 Bg7 6.0-0 Nge7. We are at move 20.
  

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Re: Getting the Bird and not Liking It
Reply #18 - 11/20/07 at 12:55:44
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Meat wrote on 11/19/07 at 10:10:26:
I usually met the Bird with 1...c5 hoping to transpose to some sort of closed Sicilian or GPA.
The problem with this is that most Bird players at club level stubbornly refuse to play e4. Instead they go for a queenside fianchetto with b3 Bb2 and e3. Frankly I have no idea how to play against that, although I feel blacks position should be rather fine. Any suggestions?

Btw: A friend of mine claimed that g6 Bg7 followed by an early Nh6 has worked wonders for him. Has anyone else tried that out?


I think the queenside fianchetto does not bring anything for white, against a black (double) fianchetto, with a Night on f6. However I am aware about all the positive sounds for a Night on h6. Without having proper analysis, I doubt those conclusions. When playing dutch against Nh3 systems, they play very nice for black, once you have mastered to avoid all the tricks. Black then always need to be very sensitive on move order, because basically black is one tempo short.

So playing a reversed Leningrad agains a black Nh6 is at least comfortable, if you can play it with black, and gives white the initiative.

I think the good reputation for the Nh3 / Nh6 systems come, because of all accidents what happen for the (reversed) Dutch players. But those accidents can be well avoided, and then it plays very nice.

@Mnb:
The e6 systems against the "classical" Grand Prix are very solid. And I think a bit ignored / forgotten by theory. I do not think it is easy for white to gain any advantage for white. I am curious to the game.

  
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Re: Getting the Bird and not Liking It
Reply #17 - 11/19/07 at 10:10:26
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I usually met the Bird with 1...c5 hoping to transpose to some sort of closed Sicilian or GPA.
The problem with this is that most Bird players at club level stubbornly refuse to play e4. Instead they go for a queenside fianchetto with b3 Bb2 and e3. Frankly I have no idea how to play against that, although I feel blacks position should be rather fine. Any suggestions?

Btw: A friend of mine claimed that g6 Bg7 followed by an early Nh6 has worked wonders for him. Has anyone else tried that out?
  
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MNb
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Re: Getting the Bird and not Liking It
Reply #16 - 11/19/07 at 00:42:13
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Black_Widow wrote on 11/14/07 at 21:15:03:
1 f4 c5 2 Nf3 and 3 e4, is a much different Grand Prix from 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 and 3 f4. White avoided with the Bird move order the some resourcefull black variations, expecially the 2 .. d5 gambit, which is in a normal sicilian the way to handle the GP for black. Besides much more trickier, also the theory has been forgotten, which stems from the 80's. I had already several title holders, who made a mess from the black position. So it is an excellent line for over the board play, white has to easy moves, and black the difficult defence.

I have a corr game going on with 1.f4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.e4 and I am Black. I will post it when it's finished. But I can assure you there have been some theoretical developments the last few years which challenge your conclusion, at least for corr chess. An example is 1.f4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.e4 e6 4.Nc3 (what else?) a6 and it looks like White has nothing better than 5.d4 entering an Open Sicilian. Is that what the Bird player wants? (Thanks, Ostap)
  

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Re: Getting the Bird and not Liking It
Reply #15 - 11/15/07 at 21:59:59
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LeeRoth wrote on 11/14/07 at 22:51:44:
Black_Widow wrote on 11/13/07 at 20:03:33:
1 f4 - d5, with an early Bg4 for black. This is also not a good idea for black I think. To get just an idea, look to the games from Danielsen on the Polar Bear system.


Palliser recommends this system in BUCO.  

Unless Danielson has a significant improvement, it looks pretty good for Black.

With all respect to Richard Palliser and his nice book, but I am of the opinion, that analysis of the Kramnik game is thin. Especially for looking for improvements for white. For example 6 Nc3 c6 7 d3 and then a quick long castle for white. I do not see that black has enough compensation for his pawn, since white is then very decent. And there are more improvements which can be suggested. What Kramnik played was very tricky, giving black a lot of play for the pawn.
  
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Re: Getting the Bird and not Liking It
Reply #14 - 11/15/07 at 15:12:35
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Black_Widow wrote on 11/14/07 at 21:15:03:
1 f4 c5 2 Nf3 and 3 e4, is a much different Grand Prix from 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 and 3 f4. White avoided with the Bird move order the some resourcefull black variations, expecially the 2 .. d5 gambit, which is in a normal sicilian the way to handle the GP for black. Besides much more trickier, also the theory has been forgotten, which stems from the 80's. I had already several title holders, who made a mess from the black position. So it is an excellent line for over the board play, white has to easy moves, and black the difficult defence.



After 1. f4 c5 2. Nf3, Black plays a direct d5 so that white would be a bit unwise to play an immediate e4. 3. e3 is most common (unless they want to play a wild, a completely unsound gambit by insisting on e4 anyway).    Then 3. ....g6 4. d4 Bg7 and we are back into a stonewall where black has all his important pawn moves already in, is ready to play Qc7 and white really has nothing better than to play c3 and and other typical styonewally buildup moves .

I am a silly rabbit and I am looking for the trix, but can't find any.
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: Getting the Bird and not Liking It
Reply #13 - 11/14/07 at 22:51:44
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Black_Widow wrote on 11/13/07 at 20:03:33:
1 f4 - d5, with an early Bg4 for black. This is also not a good idea for black I think. To get just an idea, look to the games from Danielsen on the Polar Bear system.


Palliser recommends this system in BUCO. 

Unless Danielson has a significant improvement, it looks pretty good for Black.
  
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Re: Getting the Bird and not Liking It
Reply #12 - 11/14/07 at 21:15:03
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I think 1 f4 d5 is more accurate then 1 f4 Nf6. The reason is that in some variations one want to push the d5 -pawn to d4 after a well timed c5. The Night on f6 can be the missing tempo, or be in the way of the bishop on g7 in some variations.

The stonewall attack can be very tricky, however the white Night should not be to early on f3. To get a good stonewall attack is not easy for white, it only works if black is inaccurate. A nice example of a good stonewall attack setup is (via transposition)
Mohammed - Denker 1992:
1 d4 Nf6 2 e3 d5 3 Bd3 e6 4 Nd2 Nbd7 5 f4! c5 6 c3 b6 7 Qf3, with a plus for white. Black has no good counterplay, and the important square e4 is well controlled by white.

1 f4 c5 2 Nf3 and 3 e4, is a much different Grand Prix from 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 and 3 f4. White avoided with the Bird move order the some resourcefull black variations, expecially the 2 .. d5 gambit, which is in a normal sicilian the way to handle the GP for black. Besides much more trickier, also the theory has been forgotten, which stems from the 80's. I had already several title holders, who made a mess from the black position. So it is an excellent line for over the board play, white has to easy moves, and black the difficult defence.
  
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