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Normal Topic Ragozin (Read 3962 times)
drkodos
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Re: Ragozin
Reply #9 - 12/27/07 at 13:52:26
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lnn2 wrote on 11/25/07 at 02:53:06:
I think the Vienna and Ragozin are two fundamentally different openings.  


Agreed.  

Ragozin and Manhattan are much more closely related, and quite  often positions considered to be from Ragozin are actually the Manhattan Varaiation.
  

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ErictheRed
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Re: Ragozin
Reply #8 - 12/24/07 at 23:46:35
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If you have it, I think the Ragozin games in Shereshevsky's Mastering the Endgame, vol. 2 are well worth playing through.
  
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Re: Ragozin
Reply #7 - 12/24/07 at 21:43:54
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1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.cxd5 exd5 6.Bg5 Nbd7

It seems as though 7.e3 c5 8.Bd3 Qa5 9.Qc2 c4 (or some derivation thereof) is the standard mainline, but at top flight, White has enjoyed some success with 8.Be2 of late.  Witness, for example, Morozevich-Aronian:

[Site "Morelia/Linares"]
[Date "2007.02.17"]
[White "Morozevich,Alexander"]
[Black "Aronian,Levon"]
[Eco "D38"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.cxd5 exd5 6.Bg5 Nbd7 7.e3 c5 8.Be2 Qa5 9.0-0 0-0 10.Nd2 Bxc3 11.bxc3 Qxc3 12.Rc1 Qa3 13.dxc5 Qxa2 14.Bf4 Re8 15.Nf3 Ne4 16.Bb5 a6 17.Ba4 Nexc5 18.Rxc5 Nxc5 19.Bxe8 Be6 20.Be5 Rxe8 21.Bxg7 Kxg7 22.Qd4+ Kg8 23.Qxc5 Qc4 24.Qd6 Rc8 25.h3 Qc7 26.Qb4 a5 27.Qh4 Qc2 28.Nd4 Qe4 29.Qe7 b6 30.Kh2 Bf5 31.Qf6 Bg6 32.f4 Qxe3 33.Rf3 Qc1 34.Rg3 Qa1 35.f5 Rc1 36.Re3 Rh1+ 37.Kg3 Re1 38.Rf3 Rf1 39.fxg6 Rxf3+ 40.Qxf3 Qe1+
41.Kf4 hxg6 42.Qxd5 Qf2+ 43.Nf3  1/2

Are we likely to see more of 8.Be2?
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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lnn2
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Re: Ragozin
Reply #6 - 11/26/07 at 11:28:02
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Just finished:

Sakaev K. (2634) - Vitiugov N. (2594) FIDE World Cup Khanty-Mansiysk 2007.11.26

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. Nc3 Bb4 5. cxd5 exd5 6. Bg5 Nbd7 7. Nd2 c6 8.
e3 O-O 9. Bd3 Re8 10. Qc2 Nf8 11. O-O-O Be6 12. Kb1 Rc8 13. Nb3 b6 14. Ba6 Rb8
15. Be2 Ng6 16. h4 h6 17. h5 Nf8 18. Bh4 Be7 19. Bg3 Bd6 20. Bh4 Be7 21. Ka1 a5
22. Nd2 N8d7 23. Rhg1 Bg4 24. f3 Bxh5 25. Bd3 Nf8 26. g4 Bg6 27. g5 hxg5 28.
Bxg5 Nh5 29. Bxg6 fxg6 30. Bxe7 Qxe7 31. e4 Nf4 32. Nf1 N8e6 33. Ne3 Rbd8 34.
Qh2 Kf7 35. Ng4 Rh8 36. Ne5+ Kg8 37. Qg3 Qe8 38. exd5 cxd5 39. Rde1 g5 40. Rh1
Rh6 41. a3 b5 42. Rxh6 gxh6 43. Qh2 Kg7 44. Ng4 h5 45. Ne3 b4 46. Ncxd5 Nxd5
47. Qe5+ Nf6 48. Nf5+ Kg6 49. Nd6 Rxd6 50. Qxd6 bxa3 51. Rxe6 axb2+ 52. Kb1 Qf7
53. d5 h4 54. f4 h3 55. fxg5 Kxg5 56. Qe5+ Kg6 57. Qg3+ Kh7 58. Qxh3+ Nh5 59.
Re5 Qg6+ 60. Qf5 Nf4 61. Qxg6+ Nxg6 62. Re8 Kg7 63. d6 Nf8 64. d7 1-0

A marvellously exciting game!  Shocked

Not sure what to make of Sakaev's 7. Nd2 though. From my experience, the insertion of Bb4/Nd2 doesn't favour either side very much in the QG exchange (both pieces are misplaced), and then Sakaev sharpened things by choosing opposite side castling! This line should be okay for Black theoretically, but may be easier for White to play in a practical sense if he's used to Carlsbad structures, as many 1. d4 players are.
  
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lnn2
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Re: Ragozin
Reply #5 - 11/25/07 at 02:53:06
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I have to admit the Ragozin is in pretty good health these days, there's no completely convincing solution for White against accurate Black play.  Undecided

But from a purely subjective point of view, I find the "typical Ragozin pawn structure" 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 d5 4. Nf3 Bb4 5. cxd5 exd5 6. Bg5 h6 7. Bh4 c5 8. e3 O-O 9.Bd3 c4  slightly better for White due to the extra centre pawn, and White has a clear plan of playing e3-e4. Very often Black also gives up his dark squared bishop for the knight on c3 just to prevent e3-e4, and that just makes me prefer White even more! Aronian and Aleksandrov must know better than me though.

I think the Vienna and Ragozin are two fundamentally different openings. Not sure if you will like both in your repertoire?! One is like the Sicilian (dynamic piece play), the other is like a Nimzo (blockade strategy). Certainly GMs who play the Vienna (Van Wely, Nielsen) don't play the Ragozin (Aleksandrov) and vice versa.
  
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HgMan
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Re: Ragozin
Reply #4 - 11/23/07 at 21:06:32
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I'm glad to have my initial impressions confirmed.  I was very impressed with the Ragozin coverage on the site.

Perhaps a repertoire that includes both: the Vienna for stronger opposition and the Ragozin when needing to win with Black.  A cursory glance suggests there's some merit to studying these two in unison, in terms of patterns and positional parallels...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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MartinC
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Re: Ragozin
Reply #3 - 11/23/07 at 10:45:38
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I don't think you're forced to know the Vienna to play the Ragozin although it is probably why most white players throw in cd before Bg5 vs the Ragozin. Playing the Vienna would also let you play 4 .. dc instead of 4.. Bb4 for variety.

The Vienna itself (also very well covered here) seems to be exceedingly sound. However the main lines do contain a mass of forced draws. For winning chances - especially in correspondence - you might need to look at some of the slightly scary pawn snatches or play lines which keep a bit more strategic tension in the position.
(the early b5 lines seem to have been rather put out of commission recently.).
  
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Re: Ragozin
Reply #2 - 11/23/07 at 09:49:44
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I don't know the Konikowski book but I sincerely doubt you'll find better coverage in any book than you will find in Ruslan Scherbakov's majestic section right here on ChessPublishing.  Rizzitano is OK but (necessarily) quite sketchy.  Ruslan really knows his subject matter and he has delved quite deeply into the Ragozin here.  And no, I'm not paid to say that sort of thing!

I think I'm right in saying that Levon Aronian has played a fair few Ragozins in recent years - you might want to check out his games too (where they aren't already covered by Ruslan, that is!)
  

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Re: Ragozin
Reply #1 - 11/23/07 at 08:15:37
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You could have a look at these books:
Chess explained: the queen's gambit declined (Gambit, James Rizzitano, 2007)
Modernes Damengabit richtig gespielt (Beyer, Jerzy Konikowski, 2007)
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Ragozin
11/23/07 at 02:33:45
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Picking up on a suggestion by Inn2 and others, I'm thinking about taking up the Ragozin to accompany the Nimzo-Indian against 1.d4.  In addition to the ebooks here, can anyone recommend key literature?  And will I need to be familiar with the Vienna as well?  Any thoughts?  Will this yield Black some winning chances, yet remain sound?
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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