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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Interesting endgame (Read 9613 times)
JonHecht
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Re: Interesting endgame
Reply #17 - 12/10/07 at 01:15:04
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No, but it counts as a capture.  Wink
  
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HgMan
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Re: Interesting endgame
Reply #16 - 12/10/07 at 00:10:43
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Another question re. 50 moves: on the 48th move, my opponent took my  lone pawn.  Does this count as a pawn move?  He offered a draw immediately afterwards (I accepted), but I was just curious...
  

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HgMan
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Re: Interesting endgame
Reply #15 - 12/08/07 at 21:17:39
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Thanks, John.  That's been my instinct--and Black's play certainly suggests that he doesn't know how to make progress here.  I hadn't thought about looking in Nunn's pawnless endgames book, but that makes a lot of sense...
  

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Re: Interesting endgame
Reply #14 - 12/07/07 at 15:56:19
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Actually on reflection I think my last post might be rubbish. I think Nunn was talking about R and B -v- B & N. Draw with same colour, win with opposite.

Someone with the book can no doubt check (it's also mentioned in one of Rowson's books).

The present situation might be the same though. I'd be amazed if same-colour wasn't a draw.
  
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Re: Interesting endgame
Reply #13 - 12/04/07 at 14:38:49
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HgMan - I believe this ending is a draw in the general case even without the pawn. See one of Nunn's fine works - Secrets of Pawnless Endings, maybe? With opposite coloured bishops the stronger side wins, I understand.
  
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HgMan
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Re: Interesting endgame
Reply #12 - 11/26/07 at 21:50:48
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Thanks, Dragan Glas: I'm very grateful for the information.  I'll be sure to add you to my legal team!   Cheesy

  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Dragan Glas
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Re: Interesting endgame
Reply #11 - 11/26/07 at 20:03:56
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Greetings,

HgMan
Just checked the FIDE Handbook (see http://www.fide.com/official/handbook.asp?level=EE101):

Quote:
Article 9: The drawn game
9.1      

   1.    A player wishing to offer a draw shall do so after having made a move on the chessboard and before stopping his clock and starting the opponent`s clock. An offer at any other time during play is still valid, but Article 12.6 must be considered. No conditions can be attached to the offer. In both cases the offer cannot be withdrawn and remains valid until the opponent accepts it, rejects it orally, rejects it by touching a piece with the intention of moving or capturing it, or the game is concluded in some other way.

   2.    The offer of a draw shall be noted by each player on his scoresheet with a symbol (See Appendix E13).

   3.    A claim of a draw under 9.2, 9.3 or 10.2 shall be considered to be an offer of a draw. 

9.2      The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when the same position, for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition of moves)

   1.    is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or

   2.    has just appeared, and the player claiming the draw has the move.

Positions as in (a) and (b) are considered the same, if the same player has the move, pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares, and the possible moves of all the pieces of both players are the same. Positions are not the same if a pawn that could have been captured en passant can no longer in this manner be captured or if the right to castle has been changed temporarily or permanently.

9.3      The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, if

   1.    he writes his move on his scoresheet, and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move which shall result in the last 50 moves having been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture, or

   2.    the last 50 consecutive moves have been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture.

9.4      If the player makes a move without having claimed the draw he loses the right to claim, as in Article 9.2 or 9.3, on that move.

9.5      If a player claims a draw as in Article 9.2 or 9.3, he shall immediately stop both clocks. He is not allowed to withdraw his claim.

   1.     If the claim is found to be correct the game is immediately drawn.
   2.     If the claim is found to be incorrect, the arbiter shall add three minutes to the opponent`s remaining time. Additionally, if the claimant has more than two minutes on his clock the arbiter shall deduct half of the claimant`s remaining time up to a maximum of three minutes. If the claimant has more than one minute, but less than two minutes, his remaining time shall be one minute. If the claimant has less than one minute, the arbiter shall make no adjustment to the claimant`s clock. Then the game shall continue and the intended move must be made. 

9.6      The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot occur by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled play. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing this position was legal.


The ICCF website states that "...there are NO exceptions to the 50 move rule concerning draws." (See http://www.iccf.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=39&Itemid=...)

Interestingly, Wikipedia gives some further information regarding interpretation (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifty_move_rule#_note-0):

Quote:
The fifty move rule in chess states that a player can claim a draw if no capture has been made and no pawn has been moved in the last fifty consecutive moves. The relevant part of the official FIDE laws of chess is rule 9.3[1]:

    The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, if

       (a) he writes on his scoresheet, and declares to the arbiter his intention to make a move which shall result in the last 50 moves having been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without the capture of any piece, or
       (b) the last 50 consecutive moves have been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without the capture of any piece.

Naturally, if a player writes down his next move as under (a) above, it must not be a pawn move or a capture for a valid claim. Additionally, a claim doesn't have to be made at the first opportunity – it can be made any time when there were no captures or pawn moves in the last fifty moves.

A game is not automatically declared a draw under the fifty move rule – the draw must be claimed by a player on his turn to move. Therefore a game can continue beyond a point where a draw could be claimed under the rule. Theoretically, a game could continue indefinitely under the rules though in practice, when a draw under the fifty-move rule can be claimed, one of the players is usually happy to claim it (Hooper & Whyld 1992).


It seems that you'll just have to play on and provide the score/result as normal at the end of the game.

Good luck!

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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Re: Interesting endgame
Reply #10 - 11/26/07 at 14:49:18
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From the above, it may be understandable why your opponent is looking for a win - or, at least, playing on - if you make a mistake within the 100 move rule (assuming this hasn't changed since 1989!), he has good practical chances of winning.

Funny you should say that -- it has changed back to a 50-move rule in all cases. Source: http://www.xs4all.nl/~timkr/records/records.htm
  
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HgMan
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Re: Interesting endgame
Reply #9 - 11/26/07 at 02:56:37
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Okay: multiple means three or four over 120 moves.  And like I said, I think I've found a way to force a draw...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Interesting endgame
Reply #8 - 11/26/07 at 02:07:18
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I agree that the position is almost certainly drawn, but that you have to be careful.

In an otb game, it would be the player who repeatedly offered the draw that would be considered rude!  It's the right of the player with the advantage to torture the opponent who has no real chance to win.  Your opponent knows you want a draw, so after the first offer allow your opponent to make the next one.   

Correspondence chess is different than otb chess.  Even if there is no monetary cost to making moves (for example, stamps and postcards), the game can drag on for months without resolution.  If it's part of a tournament, then all the other players may be waiting for the result. 

Can you ask for an arbiter to review your claim of a draw?
  
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HgMan
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Re: Interesting endgame
Reply #7 - 11/26/07 at 01:02:38
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Thanks again.  I've been doing a fair bit of hunting in endgame manuals and reaching the same conclusions.  None, however, seem to talk about the extra pawn, which is strange.  My sense is that the pawn should yield better drawing chances, since Black will likely have to give up a piece to prevent it from promoting.

All that said, I think I've managed to lead the game to a draw by repetition; I was merely curious as to whether there was any dogmatic rule that this position was drawn, as I suspected some thirty moves ago...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Dragan Glas
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Re: Interesting endgame
Reply #6 - 11/26/07 at 00:50:54
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Greetings,

HgMan
According to Speelman in Endgame Preparation (Batsford, 1989) these are general guidlines only(!):

Endgames With No Pawns
R+B+N v R+B

Very good winning chances - probably hopeless for the defender if there are opposite-coloured bishops.

R+B v R
Draw - but this is difficult for the defender. Unfortunately a database found a 56 move forced win - hence a 100 move rule now applies.

R+N v R
Draw (quite easy)

From the above, it may be understandable why your opponent is looking for a win - or, at least, playing on - if you make a mistake within the 100 move rule (assuming this hasn't changed since 1989!), he has good practical chances of winning.

The key difference may be the pawn - it may give you better chances for a draw, given the promotion possibility - he'll have to sacrifice/exchange one of the pieces for it.

I wouldn't wish to "advise" you - but you can draw your own conclusions of which piece combinations to beware from Speelman's "guidelines".

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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HgMan
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Re: Interesting endgame
Reply #5 - 11/26/07 at 00:06:45
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Quote:
Black to move would win on the spot.

This is the kind of position I could imagine torturing an opponent with in an allegro finish, but in correspondence ??! I'd say your opponent has pretty bad manners.


We're rapidly closing in on move 120.  Plenty of time on my clock, and little attempt to even try to win on Black's part.  I offered multiple draws, but they have all been refused.

I don't have a Nalimov tablebase; I'm guessing by his play, neither does my opponent.

But back to my question: does Black have a win here?
  

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Dragan Glas
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Re: Interesting endgame
Reply #4 - 11/25/07 at 23:53:12
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Greetings,

If you had a Nalimov CD...!

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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Re: Interesting endgame
Reply #3 - 11/25/07 at 23:23:41
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Black to move would win on the spot.

This is the kind of position I could imagine torturing an opponent with in an allegro finish, but in correspondence ??! I'd say your opponent has pretty bad manners.
  

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