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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Two questions about Bb5 lines (Read 13652 times)
realpolitik
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Re: Two questions about Bb5 lines
Reply #17 - 12/21/07 at 13:03:27
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Stigma wrote on 12/20/07 at 05:07:30:
realpolitik wrote on 12/19/07 at 23:48:00:
I am wondering about 1e4 c5 2Nf3 d6 3Bb5+ Bd7 4Bxd7 Qxd7 50-0 Nc6 6c3 g6 7d4 cd 8cd Bg7, what is the best way for White to play against this, it seems to lead to quite boring middlegames, after for example 9Nc3 Nf6 10d5 Ne5 11Nxe5 de, black seems ok
...


Isn't this (after 11,Nxe5 dxe5) just a good King's Indian-like position for White? He has a good vs a bad bishop, and the c-file is already open. Initial plan Be3, f3 and play on the queenside. Black has plans like ...Ne8-d6 and ...h5/Kh7//Bh6, but that takes time and if necessary white can avoid the exchange of bishops with Bf2. Played this structure a couple of times, and it felt comfortable for white...


Yes I guess you are right and it should be better for White but its not the type of position that fills me with excitement. Also it isn't so easy to find games between players of master strength in this line, certainly not online anyway.
  
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chk
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Re: Two questions about Bb5 lines
Reply #16 - 12/21/07 at 03:05:21
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Well, Christmas is near, you can ask Santa Claus for that Wink
  
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Re: Two questions about Bb5 lines
Reply #15 - 12/20/07 at 20:02:45
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TimS wrote on 11/29/07 at 11:04:34:
I can't recall who said this - it might have been Botvinnik - but White in the Maroczy Bind wants to keep on all four minor pieces or none. Obviously a generalisation, but ....


White wants to keep on all four minor pieces and Black to have none  Cheesy
  
Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Stigma
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Re: Two questions about Bb5 lines
Reply #14 - 12/20/07 at 05:07:30
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realpolitik wrote on 12/19/07 at 23:48:00:
I am wondering about 1e4 c5 2Nf3 d6 3Bb5+ Bd7 4Bxd7 Qxd7 50-0 Nc6 6c3 g6 7d4 cd 8cd Bg7, what is the best way for White to play against this, it seems to lead to quite boring middlegames, after for example 9Nc3 Nf6 10d5 Ne5 11Nxe5 de, black seems ok
...


Isn't this (after 11,Nxe5 dxe5) just a good King's Indian-like position for White? He has a good vs a bad bishop, and the c-file is already open. Initial plan Be3, f3 and play on the queenside. Black has plans like ...Ne8-d6 and ...h5/Kh7//Bh6, but that takes time and if necessary white can avoid the exchange of bishops with Bf2. Played this structure a couple of times, and it felt comfortable for white...
  
Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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realpolitik
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Re: Two questions about Bb5 lines
Reply #13 - 12/19/07 at 23:48:00
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I am wondering about 1e4 c5 2Nf3 d6 3Bb5+ Bd7 4Bxd7 Qxd7 50-0 Nc6 6c3 g6 7d4 cd 8cd Bg7, what is the best way for White to play against this, it seems to lead to quite boring middlegames, after for example 9Nc3 Nf6 10d5 Ne5 11Nxe5 de, black seems ok yet this move order  is not mentioned in any books on Bb5 sicilian. Pedersens doesnt even cover 6c3, McDonalds (which is not very good anyway) doesnt either and Pallisers which is probably best of the bunch says nothing either, they look at gambit lines after 6..Nf6 for example. If any comment made it is usually that white is better after 7d4 with no supporting analysis
  
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Re: Two questions about Bb5 lines
Reply #12 - 11/29/07 at 17:08:17
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Stigma wrote on 11/29/07 at 17:03:23:
TimS wrote on 11/29/07 at 11:04:34:
I can't recall who said this - it might have been Botvinnik - but White in the Maroczy Bind wants to keep on all four minor pieces or none. Obviously a generalisation, but ....


Could this be the comment you are referring to? Not quite Botvinnik, but a strong GM nevertheless:

Quote:
I have quite some experience on the Black side of the Maroczy System, and always felt most uncomfortable when White kept as many minor pieces on the board as possible. It is rather strange, but to my mind White would prefer either to keep all four minor pieces, or to exchange them all! From the famous game Botvinnik-Toran [Palma de Mallorca 1967] we know that this structure with just rooks on is very uncomfortable for Black.


- Peter Heine Nielsen, Experts vs the Sicilian (2004), p.188.


Good guess, but no the quote I saw didn't come there - I haven't got that book!
  
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Stigma
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Re: Two questions about Bb5 lines
Reply #11 - 11/29/07 at 17:03:23
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TimS wrote on 11/29/07 at 11:04:34:
I can't recall who said this - it might have been Botvinnik - but White in the Maroczy Bind wants to keep on all four minor pieces or none. Obviously a generalisation, but ....


Could this be the comment you are referring to? Not quite Botvinnik, but a strong GM nevertheless:

Quote:
I have quite some experience on the Black side of the Maroczy System, and always felt most uncomfortable when White kept as many minor pieces on the board as possible. It is rather strange, but to my mind White would prefer either to keep all four minor pieces, or to exchange them all! From the famous game Botvinnik-Toran [Palma de Mallorca 1967] we know that this structure with just rooks on is very uncomfortable for Black.


- Peter Heine Nielsen, Experts vs the Sicilian (2004), p.188.
  
Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: Two questions about Bb5 lines
Reply #10 - 11/29/07 at 16:28:07
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When I played the Bb5 systems I followed this rule:
If Black fianchettoes his king's bishop, then White should play c3 and d4;
if Black develops that bishop to e7, then White should play the Maroczy Bind, usually combined with fianchettoing his own bishop.
The idea is to restrict the activity of Black's bishop.
  
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Re: Two questions about Bb5 lines
Reply #9 - 11/29/07 at 11:54:38
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a) Exchanging all minor pieces leaves White with a favourable heavy pieces or Rooks only game as d6 will come under pressure (White can use the pawn-breaks c5 or e5).

b) Exchange none of the minor pieces, allows White more options for manoeuvring as he/she utilises 4 rows for his pieces vs. Black's 3 rows.

c) Kind of ideal for Black when using the Accelerated Dragon: Only 1 minor piece left and no heavy pieces, - Black has kept a strong Knight, while White has kept Be2 which is inside the White pawn chain of the light-squares (e.g. a2-b3-c4, e4-f3-g2).

I would like to become aware of any other thematic options..
  
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Re: Two questions about Bb5 lines
Reply #8 - 11/29/07 at 11:08:07
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What was it again? Exchance all or nothing for white?
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Two questions about Bb5 lines
Reply #7 - 11/29/07 at 11:04:34
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I can't recall who said this - it might have been Botvinnik - but White in the Maroczy Bind wants to keep on all four minor pieces or none. Obviously a generalisation, but ....
  
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chk
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Re: Two questions about Bb5 lines
Reply #6 - 11/28/07 at 17:27:42
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No, it's not just you! I am also playing the White side of the Maroczy and am happy to keep as many pieces on as possible, since Black's position is more cramped than White's.

Still, I've seen this idea of Bb5+ and a Maroczy. At least White avoids a good Black Knight vs. bad light-squared Bishop ending.. But again, I tend to agree with you.
  
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Re: Two questions about Bb5 lines
Reply #5 - 11/28/07 at 16:50:17
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chk wrote on 11/28/07 at 11:43:36:

One of White's main ideas with Bb5+ is to opt for a Maroczy with the light-squared Bishop outside the pawn chain, i.e. a favourable circumstance to follow up on Bb5+ with d4 and c4.


Y'know, having played the Maroczy structure with both colours over the years and with or without the light-squared bishops, I am not at all sure that trading them helps White.  To back this up a bit, look at it like this: sure, if you look at what colour squares the pawns are on, you'd think that White would want to get rid of his light-squared bishop but the point about the Maroczy is that White has a space advantage and it serves his interests to keep pieces on the board in that case.

I've found that without the light-squared bishops, White's position can even feel a bit 'loose' while it's very far from clear that the Black light-squared bishop is a particularly effective piece.

Maybe this is just me though  Undecided
« Last Edit: 11/29/07 at 09:43:41 by alumbrado »  
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chk
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Re: Two questions about Bb5 lines
Reply #4 - 11/28/07 at 11:43:36
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MNb wrote on 11/27/07 at 21:08:37:
...The idea of 3...Nd7 is to get the pair of bishops and play for a win.
...I have always suspected, that 3...Nd7 is popular on Najdorf aficionados, because of 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nc3 cxd4 6.Qxd4 e5 with a structure similar to the Najdorf.


True, the Bd7 lines have a reputation to be somewhat drawish and also Najdorf players can use Nd7 so to strive for a favourable e5 structure. But Black needs to keep a good timing as an early 4. ... cxd4 gives White a big development advantage (Black cannot play Nc6 like in the Najdorf when needed). So, I prefer 4. ... N(g)f6.

One of White's main ideas with Bb5+ is to opt for a Maroczy with the light-squared Bishop outside the pawn chain, i.e. a favourable circumstance to follow up on Bb5+ with d4 and c4. If Black wants to prevent this he/she can try to pressurise e4 as soon as possible so to provoke Nc3 (4. ... Nf6 or similar if White postpones 4. d4). So following MNb's line:
MNb wrote on 11/27/07 at 21:08:37:
I have always suspected, that 3...Nd7 is popular on Najdorf aficionados, because of 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nc3 cxd4 6.Qxd4 e5 with a structure similar to the Najdorf.


7. Qd3 h6!? (to prevent 8. Bg5 and Black has some problems defending the d5-hole) 8. O-O a6 9. BxNd7+ QxBd7
  
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MNb
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Re: Two questions about Bb5 lines
Reply #3 - 11/27/07 at 21:38:02
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I wonder why players like Ivantsjuk, Timman, Adams, Kramnik, Gelfand, Morozevitsj and Judasin chose this not really good move. Even Kasparov used it to beat Polgar in 2002.
I also wonder why Ljubojevic, Polugajevsky and again Kasparov gave somewhat justice to their opponents and how they still won.
Finally I wonder why I had more success against 3...Bd7 than against 3...Nd7, maybe because I don't understand the non-cost strategic advantage of exchanging light squared bishops?
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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