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Radjabov's Jaenisch (Read 72797 times)

ArKheiN God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 728 Location: Belgium Joined: 03/30/05	Re: Radjabov's Jaenisch Reply #55 - 03/03/08 at 05:21:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	Everyone speak about improvment for Black to move 23 or so, but nobody responded to my improvment on move 16 where I claim equality to Black after 16..0-0-0 followed by Rhf8, and if you don't agree I will try to defend the Black side and we will see if I am right or not.


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pioleiva YaBB Newbies Offline Those who dont move dont feel their freedom... Posts: 29 Joined: 09/27/07	Re: Radjabov's Jaenisch Reply #54 - 03/03/08 at 00:36:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	HgMan wrote on 03/02/08 at 14:42:32: I appreciate your suggestions--and it's great to have a defender of these lines for Black in this forum. I'd love to find that this is playable for Black (and if Radjabov is sticking with it, there must be something here...). But I'm not sure I agree with your evaluation after 20...Rfb8. White has the simple 21.Na5 when the c6 pawn is in trouble. Black can't get in 21...Rb5 or 21...Rb4 at this point, because of 22.Nxc6 (21...Rb4 22.Nxc6 Qe8 [22...Rxa4? 23.Ne7+] 23.Nxb4 Qxa4 24.Nd5 with some interesting complications that all seem to favor White). Black's best is perhaps: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.O-O Bc5 7.Qd3 d6 8.Qc4 Qe7 9.Nc3 Bd7 10.Bg5 a6 11.Bxc6 bxc6 12.Na4 Ba7 13.Qd3 Qf7 14.c4 O-O 15.c5 Bg4 16.Bxf6 Qxf6 17.Nd2 Qg6 18.f3 Bh3 19.Rf2 Be6 20.Nc4 Rfb8 21.Na5 dxc5 22.Nxc6 c4 (not sure what else) 23.Ne7+ Kf7 24.Nxg6 cxd3 25.Nxe5+ Kf6 26.Nxd3 Rd8 This looks satisfactory for Black, who has weathered the storm, perhaps. But you're right: maybe White needs to back up a little. There should be a better way to lock that bishop in more effectively. While the position looks fairly open, White's knights enjoy considerable activity in many lines here and can't be inferior to the bishops... yeah, 21....dxc5 seems to be a satisfactory suggestion. But perhaps black can even play 21....Qe8, because after a forthcoming Rb5 white seems to have problems with his gnights on a4 and a5 and his pawn on c5. A sample line (admittedly cooperative play by white, just to iluustrate the ideas) being 22.a3? Rb5 23. b4? dxc5 -+ At the moment I think the most dangerous idea for black in the whole 4.d3 complex is following Macieja's example from the worldcup, although most sources have annotated this game "by result". White should stick to 4.Nc3. Maybe its only a bluff to play the Jaenisch at this level? I really hope one of the strong guys will test Radjabov on that ground...


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pioleiva YaBB Newbies Offline Those who dont move dont feel their freedom... Posts: 29 Joined: 09/27/07	Re: Radjabov's Jaenisch Reply #53 - 03/03/08 at 00:21:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	@Willempie Yes, you are right. After a kingwalk to the queenside white cannot lose. It seems to be one of those positions that can lead to unbalanced play IF white tries (and risks) something, but that are rather sterile if he simply holds still. That seems to be blacks fate in many lines of the spanish and the petroff.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Radjabov's Jaenisch Reply #52 - 03/02/08 at 22:30:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	pioleiva wrote on 03/02/08 at 19:30:25: Well, that's actually the tiype of endgame I am talking of. 24. Qf6 Qxf6 (Re8 followed by Qxf6 and Re7 is also possible) 25. Rxf6 Ka7! and black has no problems his king is infiltrating the black squares on the queenside. He has no problems and can even afford to give up his h7 pawn. His counterplay is very fast. One sample line being 26. Rf7 Kb6 27.Rxh7 Kc5 and white might even be worse if he is not careful. That is why in our analysis we thought that 23.c4 might be an inaccuracy. Affter this move whites queenside is very weak in rookendgames. Yes that kingwalk is good (I think it is the only way to not lose directly), but if white just moves the king towards the c-pawn and keeps the rook on the f-file he still is in no danger whatsoever. On the other hand it is indeed hard to see how white can win then.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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pioleiva YaBB Newbies Offline Those who dont move dont feel their freedom... Posts: 29 Joined: 09/27/07	Re: Radjabov's Jaenisch Reply #51 - 03/02/08 at 19:30:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	Willempie wrote on 03/02/08 at 10:26:48: pioleiva wrote on 03/01/08 at 23:50:14: Well, I think I have to disagree with the posters above. The 4.d3 line is simply highly overrated. If you examine the position after move 20 (actually almost the same position as in Greets excellent book, except that there the rook is on f3) without prejudices, you can only conclude that white has gotten almost nothing out of the opening. Today an analysis session with two german gm's came to the result that radjabov started going astray with 23....c6?! and finally after 27....Qe1?! white got good winning chances. But... if Radjabov had played the better 23....a5! his position is fully ok. The only plan to make progress for white ist to probe blacks kingside with h4-h5 and exchange queens (probably white has even to do it the other way around, because of his potentially exposed king) in order to penetrate with his king on the kingside. In the meantime black is getting counterplay on the black squares on the kingside with ka7-b6, and maybe later c7-c6. the big difference in contrast to the game is that blacks king is not locked in by that nasty white a5-pawn. To conclude: black has nothing to fear. To make progress white has to exchange queens, but that leaves a rather balanced endgame where black has the same justification as white to play for more than a draw. Personally I am very interested in the improvements Radjabov has to have found in the mainlines. As markovich has pointed out, at the moment they are looking rather shaky for black. It's a pity that J. Polgar avoided the critical lines in Linares after playing 4.Nc3 against Radjabov... Have you got any ideas? I would be very interested... Disagree, 24. Qf6 and the pieces will come in on the 6th and 7th rank. I dont see how the black queen can get annoying. ie 24. Qf6 Qd7 15.h3. So prolly then 14...Qxf6 Rxf6 and black needs a very good plan to hold. Well, that's actually the tiype of endgame I am talking of. 24. Qf6 Qxf6 (Re8 followed by Qxf6 and Re7 is also possible) 25. Rxf6 Ka7! and black has no problems his king is infiltrating the black squares on the queenside. He has no problems and can even afford to give up his h7 pawn. His counterplay is very fast. One sample line being 26. Rf7 Kb6 27.Rxh7 Kc5 and white might even be worse if he is not careful. That is why in our analysis we thought that 23.c4 might be an inaccuracy. Affter this move whites queenside is very weak in rookendgames.


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HgMan God Member Offline Demand me nothing: What you know, you know Posts: 2330 Location: Up on Cripple Creek Joined: 11/09/04 Gender:	Re: Radjabov's Jaenisch Reply #50 - 03/02/08 at 14:42:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	pioleiva wrote on 03/02/08 at 00:27:03: HgMan wrote on 03/01/08 at 13:20:59: Recently, I have been looking at: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.O-O Bc5 7.Qd3 d6 8.Qc4 Qe7 9.Nc3 Bd7 10.Bg5 a6 11.Bxc6 bxc6 12.Na4 Ba7 13.Qd3 Qf7 14.c4 O-O 15.c5 Bg4 16.Bxf6 After this, Black is faced with a choice (well, not much of a choice, but a bit of a problem): 16...Qxf6 17.Nd2 Qg6 18.f3 Bh3 19.Rf2 Be6 20.Nc4 Qh5 21.b4 Rab8 22.Qc3 Rb5 23.Na5 and Black's position starts to look pretty miserable pretty quickly. 16...Bxf3 17.Qxf3 Qc4 18.b3 Qb5 19.Rac1 Rxf6 20.Qe3 Raf8 looks like a better alternative for Black, but even here White should have good chances if s/he can keep the bishop buried... Thats a very interesting suggestion, but albeit a very risky one, as white surrenders both his bishops, his only plus being the incarceled black bishop on a7. Black has got the bishop pair (against knights in a fluid position, better prospects on the kingside and a better grip on the central squares. But chess is not only abaout evaluations, its also a very concrete game. and in the final position of your 16....Qxf6 variation whites position has certainly got more potential than blacks (but is he really worse in such an unbalanced position?). Anyway, I think a considerable improvement for black is to be found after 16....Qxf6 17.Nd2 Qg6 18.f3 Bh3 19.Rf2 Be6 20 Nc4 Rfb8! The queens rook is guarding the a7 bishop, white cant get b4 in and Rb5 (or Rb4) is coming. I dont say black is better, but its quite a mess. White can try to improve with 20.b4, but also then the immediate 20...a5! (Rfb8 is an option, too) is very strong. White has to play 21.bxa5 with an unclear position, because 21.a3? fails due to the unprotected rook on a1. I appreciate your suggestions--and it's great to have a defender of these lines for Black in this forum. I'd love to find that this is playable for Black (and if Radjabov is sticking with it, there must be something here...). But I'm not sure I agree with your evaluation after 20...Rfb8. White has the simple 21.Na5 when the c6 pawn is in trouble. Black can't get in 21...Rb5 or 21...Rb4 at this point, because of 22.Nxc6 (21...Rb4 22.Nxc6 Qe8 [22...Rxa4? 23.Ne7+] 23.Nxb4 Qxa4 24.Nd5 with some interesting complications that all seem to favor White). Black's best is perhaps: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.O-O Bc5 7.Qd3 d6 8.Qc4 Qe7 9.Nc3 Bd7 10.Bg5 a6 11.Bxc6 bxc6 12.Na4 Ba7 13.Qd3 Qf7 14.c4 O-O 15.c5 Bg4 16.Bxf6 Qxf6 17.Nd2 Qg6 18.f3 Bh3 19.Rf2 Be6 20.Nc4 Rfb8 21.Na5 dxc5 22.Nxc6 c4 (not sure what else) 23.Ne7+ Kf7 24.Nxg6 cxd3 25.Nxe5+ Kf6 26.Nxd3 Rd8 This looks satisfactory for Black, who has weathered the storm, perhaps. But you're right: maybe White needs to back up a little. There should be a better way to lock that bishop in more effectively. While the position looks fairly open, White's knights enjoy considerable activity in many lines here and can't be inferior to the bishops...

	"Luck favours the prepared mind." --Louis Pasteur
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Radjabov's Jaenisch Reply #49 - 03/02/08 at 10:26:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	pioleiva wrote on 03/01/08 at 23:50:14: Well, I think I have to disagree with the posters above. The 4.d3 line is simply highly overrated. If you examine the position after move 20 (actually almost the same position as in Greets excellent book, except that there the rook is on f3) without prejudices, you can only conclude that white has gotten almost nothing out of the opening. Today an analysis session with two german gm's came to the result that radjabov started going astray with 23....c6?! and finally after 27....Qe1?! white got good winning chances. But... if Radjabov had played the better 23....a5! his position is fully ok. The only plan to make progress for white ist to probe blacks kingside with h4-h5 and exchange queens (probably white has even to do it the other way around, because of his potentially exposed king) in order to penetrate with his king on the kingside. In the meantime black is getting counterplay on the black squares on the kingside with ka7-b6, and maybe later c7-c6. the big difference in contrast to the game is that blacks king is not locked in by that nasty white a5-pawn. To conclude: black has nothing to fear. To make progress white has to exchange queens, but that leaves a rather balanced endgame where black has the same justification as white to play for more than a draw. Personally I am very interested in the improvements Radjabov has to have found in the mainlines. As markovich has pointed out, at the moment they are looking rather shaky for black. It's a pity that J. Polgar avoided the critical lines in Linares after playing 4.Nc3 against Radjabov... Have you got any ideas? I would be very interested... Disagree, 24. Qf6 and the pieces will come in on the 6th and 7th rank. I dont see how the black queen can get annoying. ie 24. Qf6 Qd7 15.h3. So prolly then 14...Qxf6 Rxf6 and black needs a very good plan to hold.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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pioleiva YaBB Newbies Offline Those who dont move dont feel their freedom... Posts: 29 Joined: 09/27/07	Re: Radjabov's Jaenisch Reply #48 - 03/02/08 at 00:27:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	HgMan wrote on 03/01/08 at 13:20:59: Recently, I have been looking at: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.O-O Bc5 7.Qd3 d6 8.Qc4 Qe7 9.Nc3 Bd7 10.Bg5 a6 11.Bxc6 bxc6 12.Na4 Ba7 13.Qd3 Qf7 14.c4 O-O 15.c5 Bg4 16.Bxf6 After this, Black is faced with a choice (well, not much of a choice, but a bit of a problem): 16...Qxf6 17.Nd2 Qg6 18.f3 Bh3 19.Rf2 Be6 20.Nc4 Qh5 21.b4 Rab8 22.Qc3 Rb5 23.Na5 and Black's position starts to look pretty miserable pretty quickly. 16...Bxf3 17.Qxf3 Qc4 18.b3 Qb5 19.Rac1 Rxf6 20.Qe3 Raf8 looks like a better alternative for Black, but even here White should have good chances if s/he can keep the bishop buried... Thats a very interesting suggestion, but albeit a very risky one, as white surrenders both his bishops, his only plus being the incarceled black bishop on a7. Black has got the bishop pair (against knights in a fluid position, better prospects on the kingside and a better grip on the central squares. But chess is not only abaout evaluations, its also a very concrete game. and in the final position of your 16....Qxf6 variation whites position has certainly got more potential than blacks (but is he really worse in such an unbalanced position?). Anyway, I think a considerable improvement for black is to be found after 16....Qxf6 17.Nd2 Qg6 18.f3 Bh3 19.Rf2 Be6 20 Nc4 Rfb8! The queens rook is guarding the a7 bishop, white cant get b4 in and Rb5 (or Rb4) is coming. I dont say black is better, but its quite a mess. White can try to improve with 20.b4, but also then the immediate 20...a5! (Rfb8 is an option, too) is very strong. White has to play 21.bxa5 with an unclear position, because 21.a3? fails due to the unprotected rook on a1.


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pioleiva YaBB Newbies Offline Those who dont move dont feel their freedom... Posts: 29 Joined: 09/27/07	Re: Radjabov's Jaenisch Reply #47 - 03/01/08 at 23:50:14	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, I think I have to disagree with the posters above. The 4.d3 line is simply highly overrated. If you examine the position after move 20 (actually almost the same position as in Greets excellent book, except that there the rook is on f3) without prejudices, you can only conclude that white has gotten almost nothing out of the opening. Today an analysis session with two german gm's came to the result that radjabov started going astray with 23....c6?! and finally after 27....Qe1?! white got good winning chances. But... if Radjabov had played the better 23....a5! his position is fully ok. The only plan to make progress for white ist to probe blacks kingside with h4-h5 and exchange queens (probably white has even to do it the other way around, because of his potentially exposed king) in order to penetrate with his king on the kingside. In the meantime black is getting counterplay on the black squares on the kingside with ka7-b6, and maybe later c7-c6. the big difference in contrast to the game is that blacks king is not locked in by that nasty white a5-pawn. To conclude: black has nothing to fear. To make progress white has to exchange queens, but that leaves a rather balanced endgame where black has the same justification as white to play for more than a draw. Personally I am very interested in the improvements Radjabov has to have found in the mainlines. As markovich has pointed out, at the moment they are looking rather shaky for black. It's a pity that J. Polgar avoided the critical lines in Linares after playing 4.Nc3 against Radjabov... Have you got any ideas? I would be very interested...


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ArKheiN God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 728 Location: Belgium Joined: 03/30/05	Re: Radjabov's Jaenisch Reply #46 - 03/01/08 at 23:45:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	I offer 16..0-0-0 followed by 17..Rhf8 as a possible improvment to Black.


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Raphael YaBB Newbies Offline If you have been checkmated you missed something. Posts: 5 Joined: 02/06/08	Re: Radjabov's Jaenisch Reply #45 - 03/01/08 at 14:11:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	I agree. This line looks bad for black. If this is the best black can get then it is time to switch to something else.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: Radjabov's Jaenisch Reply #44 - 03/01/08 at 13:43:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	Zatara wrote on 03/01/08 at 06:11:52: Hi all. So Radjabov actually played this vs Topalov who used d3!!!! and still only drew. I hope Radjabov is preparing the "death" to the Ruy.... What do people think of d3 now after Topalov-radjabov 2008? Well having played through the game I dont like it at all for black. He was constantly defending and had no chance whatsoever for more than a draw. I doubt this defending such a worse middle- and endgame is what Jaenisch players or even Petrov players for that matter want from their opening.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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HgMan God Member Offline Demand me nothing: What you know, you know Posts: 2330 Location: Up on Cripple Creek Joined: 11/09/04 Gender:	Re: Radjabov's Jaenisch Reply #43 - 03/01/08 at 13:20:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	After: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.O-O Bc5 7.Qd3 d6 8.Qc4 Qe7 9.Nc3 Bd7 It seems as though 10.Nd5 is the hip move, but I wonder whether Magnus Carlsen's 10.Bg5 deserves more attention: [Site "Porto Vecchio"] [Date "2007.05.18"] [Round "3"] [White "Carlsen,Magnus"] [Black "Radjabov,Teimour"] 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.0-0 Bc5 7.Qe2 d6 8.Qc4 Qe7 9.Nc3 Bd7 10.Bg5 a6 11.Bxc6 bxc6 12.Be3 Bxe3 13.fxe3 Qf7 14.Nd2 0-0 15.Qxf7+ Kxf7 16.Nc4 Ke7 17.Na5 Rab8 18.Rab1 c5 19.a3 Bb5 20.Rf3 Bd7 21.Rff1 Rb6 22.Nc4 Rb7 23.Na5 Rbb8 24.b4 cxb4 25.axb4 Rb6 26.Nd5+ Nxd5 27.exd5 Rxf1+ 28.Kxf1 c6 29.dxc6 Bxc6 30.c4 Be4 31.Rb2 Ke6 32.Ke1 Rb8 33.b5 axb5 34.cxb5 Ra8 35.Nc4 Ra4 36.Nd2 Bb7 37.b6 Kd7 38.Rc2 Bc6 39.Rb2 Bb7 40.Rc2 Ra1+ 41.Kf2 Bc6 42.Rb2 Ra8 43.Nc4 Rb8 44.Rd2 Ke7 45.Nxd6 Bd7 46.Nc4 Be6 47.Nxe5 Rxb6 48.Nf3 Rb8 49.h4 h6 50.Rd4 Rb2+ 51.Nd2 Rb5 52.g4 Rb8 53.Nf3 Rb3 54.g5 hxg5 55.Nxg5 Bf5 56.Rf4 Bg6 57.Nf3 Rb2+ 58.Kg3 Re2 59.Rg4 Kf6 60.Kf4 Rf2 61.Rg5 Bc2 62.e4 Bd1 63.Rf5+ Ke7 64.Kg3 Re2 65.Re5+ Kf6 66.Rd5 Bc2 67.e5+ Ke7 68.Nd4 Re3+ 69.Kf2 Rd3 70.e6 g6 71.Rd7+ Kf6 72.e7 Kf7 73.Rd8 Kxe7 74.Nc6+ Kf6 75.Rxd3 Bxd3 76.Ke3 g5 77.hxg5+ Kxg5 1/2 Recently, I have been looking at: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.O-O Bc5 7.Qd3 d6 8.Qc4 Qe7 9.Nc3 Bd7 10.Bg5 a6 11.Bxc6 bxc6 12.Na4 Ba7 13.Qd3 Qf7 14.c4 O-O 15.c5 Bg4 16.Bxf6 After this, Black is faced with a choice (well, not much of a choice, but a bit of a problem): 16...Qxf6 17.Nd2 Qg6 18.f3 Bh3 19.Rf2 Be6 20.Nc4 Qh5 21.b4 Rab8 22.Qc3 Rb5 23.Na5 and Black's position starts to look pretty miserable pretty quickly. 16...Bxf3 17.Qxf3 Qc4 18.b3 Qb5 19.Rac1 Rxf6 20.Qe3 Raf8 looks like a better alternative for Black, but even here White should have good chances if s/he can keep the bishop buried...

	"Luck favours the prepared mind." --Louis Pasteur
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Raphael YaBB Newbies Offline If you have been checkmated you missed something. Posts: 5 Joined: 02/06/08	Re: Radjabov's Jaenisch Reply #42 - 03/01/08 at 13:05:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	Interesting. Finally somebody tried this line against Radjabov. Still according to the commentary on chessbase.com white had clear and lasting advantage. There was a inaccuracy in the rook endgame letting black escape. Overall, the opening was a success for white, not for black, I suppose . Any improvements for black?


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Zatara Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 422 Location: Virginia Joined: 02/26/08 Gender:	Re: Radjabov's Jaenisch Reply #41 - 03/01/08 at 06:11:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hi all. So Radjabov actually played this vs Topalov who used d3!!!! and still only drew. I hope Radjabov is preparing the "death" to the Ruy.... What do people think of d3 now after Topalov-radjabov 2008?


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