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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Tarrasch Line (Read 4780 times)
Willempie
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Re: Tarrasch Line
Reply #14 - 11/29/07 at 11:42:08
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sssthepro wrote on 11/29/07 at 11:07:48:
Ok guys, I guess I will start posting again.

Thanks everyone. I think I understand better now what I should post. You guys have also given me a lot of tips on where to find info. Sorry for asking for free info. Next time, I will just ask for the critical move, or the general line of thought.

To ErictheRed: Sorry for my rude reply as well

To Inn2: Erm, well you don't find much books in Singapore (little red dot)...

As for this Tarrasch Line, I think I have found a line that I am comfortable with. Thanks.

Noworries.
Also keep in mind that for most here English is not the first language and that "electronic conversation" is in general more direct than the organic variety. So something may come across as blunt or rude, which is not intended that way at all.

Btw a very handy resource is www.chesslive.de It is especially useful to check out variations you dont know.
[blatant selfpromotion]Ie that's how I repaired my Catalan mistake (see the thread about me and the catalan)[blatant selfpromotion]
  

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sssthepro
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Re: Tarrasch Line
Reply #13 - 11/29/07 at 11:07:48
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Ok guys, I guess I will start posting again.

Thanks everyone. I think I understand better now what I should post. You guys have also given me a lot of tips on where to find info. Sorry for asking for free info. Next time, I will just ask for the critical move, or the general line of thought.

To ErictheRed: Sorry for my rude reply as well

To Inn2: Erm, well you don't find much books in Singapore (little red dot)...

As for this Tarrasch Line, I think I have found a line that I am comfortable with. Thanks.
  
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dokusan
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Re: Tarrasch Line
Reply #12 - 11/29/07 at 10:41:12
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I tend to buy the books too - don't overlook the second hand market - some quite new titles can be found for good prices, Amazon, obviously, but Abe books is my favourite
When my books don't cover something or I think they are out of date, I tend to use the key and database of New in Chess.com as a substitute for MCO, I guess you don't get the editorial value of MCO/NCO/ECO, but it's very accessible and you can track straight to the relevant games in the board window
comments?
  
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Re: Tarrasch Line
Reply #11 - 11/29/07 at 08:44:27
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Ruslan's section is also a good source for the Tarrasch Smiley
sssthepro: Where do you live that you can't find any half decent books? can't be worse off than Bibs or MnB.
  
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Dragan Glas
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Re: Tarrasch Line
Reply #10 - 11/29/07 at 01:35:45
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Greetings,

sssthepro
I can see both points here - the forum is for discussion, certainly; at the same time, the members here expect posters to do some homework.

I realize that you've done some research - at least, with Fritz if not through your own efforts - but there are so many more freely available resources at your disposal to find the answers to some of the questions you ask.

Consider, I certainly have a reasonable library - but I don't always find the answers for which I'm looking.

We both have computers - the fact that we can post on forums is a fair indication of this.  Wink

I use a FREE chess application called SCID - although this is no longer being developed, its features are more than sufficient for anyone of my ability. There are, in fact, two other similar applications (based on SCID) which are being actively developed and I would recommend either one to you - ChessDB or Scid-pg (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shane%27s_Chess_Information_Database)

The advantage of SCID is that - like Chess Assistant - it is transpositional; it doesn't matter what move order is used, you can reach the same position regardless. Chessbase, on the other hand, is move-order dependent - if you reach a position using a certain move order, it won't show you games with the same position but using different move orders.

By downloading games from various websites, TWIC for example, you can build up a considerable collection of games from the best players in the world throughout the history of chess.

Archive - http://www.chesscenter.com/twic/twicp1.html
Current - http://www.chesscenter.com/twic/twicp.html

Column 4 contains the weekly PGN files in ZIP format.

For example, my SCID database - despite being incomplete (I've only downloaded half of the available TWIC games - and this doesn't include all the other possible websites!) - shows 178 games after move 10..., Be6 from 2003-5 where the average Elo rating ranged from 2370-2460. (I've yet to download the more recent months and most of the archive.)

Of these, 11. b3 and 11. e3 have been played in 88 games (44 each) with wins for White in 71.5% and 69.3% of those games, respectively.

Also, 11. f4 (22 games with 62.3%), 11. Nc6 (37 games with - only - 41.8%), 11. Rc1 (8 and 62.5%) and 11. Bxf6 (3 and 100%) also feature - not to mention the odd games with other moves which seem to favour Black, perhaps because there aren't that many examples.

You see?

By the time I finish adding all of TWIC - with weekly updates - and other websites (the Irish Chess Union has downloads for games by Irish players going back to the early 19th century!), I'll have a considerable database from which to find all sorts of moves - and move-orders(!)

And all this is freely available on the internet.

A library - as kylemeister suggests - is a perfect place to get a book on the openings, both general and specific. Watson's recent two volume opus on the openings (Mastering The Chess Openings - Volumes 1 & 2) should be high on your list - both for understanding the openings and their latest lines.

Keep posting - but ask questions based on more thorough/reliable research; for example, where annotators seem to differ on assessments for a given position/variation, etc.

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Tarrasch Line
Reply #9 - 11/29/07 at 00:49:21
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To sssthepro:  After reading over my post, I realize it sounds a lot more rude than I meant for it to come across.  But remember that there are real people behind the internet handles that post here.  My point is that a lot of your questions seem to be about well established, main line theory.  It takes time to go to our books, compare the analysis, and write out a synopsis.  In the end, all we've done is written out some variations that you could just as easily have found in NCO or any specialist books like John Cox's Starting out 1.d4 or Aagaard's Meeting 1.d4.  If you want to discuss new ideas further down the main lines, or want a recommendation of books you can look at that cover these lines, then I don't mind helping out.  But you shouldn't expect us to act like secretaries and type out variations that can be found in many books.

I'm sorry if I come across as rude; I don't intend to.  Maybe if you had a more specific question than "what should be played?" we could help you more.  Do you want to know what's regarded as most critical for White?  For Black?  What?
  
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dsanchez
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Re: Tarrasch Line
Reply #8 - 11/29/07 at 00:26:27
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Here's a practical observation.

At your level (and mine), if you play 100 non-computer games starting out with the moves 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6, you will probably get the chance to choose between the  main line Tarrasch options 9...dc and 9...c4 maybe 10 times.  Probably not even that much.

I realize that doesn't answer your question, just thought I'd offer an observation based on experience.

Now, to attempt to answer your question more specifically --

In my opinion, 9...dc is more in keeping with the original spirit of the Tarrasch:  IQP, central space advantage, active piece play, etc.  However, at the very top levels, it has not been popular for quite some time, although Spassky and Kasparov used to trot it out from time to time.  I believe Akobian still plays it.

9...c4 leads to a different kind of game, usually with Black trying to advance his Qside pawn majority at some point.  One of the chuks plays it, or used to play it, fairly regularly, cant remember if it's Onischuck or Grischuk. 

Do some database searches on ECO D32-D34, you'll find lots of good games, especially from the first part of the 20th Century.  There's even some pretty good stuff on this site.

The Tarrasch is playable and fun.  But, again, you'll rarely get the opportunity to play it in its pure form against players rated less than 2200.
  
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MNb
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Re: Tarrasch Line
Reply #7 - 11/28/07 at 21:16:00
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Eric and Bibs have a point. I don't have that many opening books either, a few dozen. One of them is Taimanov's Damengambit bis Holländisch from 1980. And guess what? 9.Bg5 c4 10.Ne5 Be6 receives a half page. The lines begin with 11.Nxc4, 11.f4, 11.e3 and 11.Nxc6. A line from Lasker is 11.f4 Ng4 (Qb6 12.f5) 12.Nxg4 Bxg4 13.Bxd5 Bxg5 14.fxg5 Qxg5 15.Rf4 with better chances for White.
So it might be a good idea to get yourself a small but allround library. Begin with a few like Pachman's Moderne Schachtheorie, which was a 6-volume overview. Combine this with a decent database and you will get quite far.
  

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kylemeister
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Re: Tarrasch Line
Reply #6 - 11/28/07 at 17:27:48
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One thought is interlibrary loan.  In my experience here in the States, this can be used to obtain almost any book you're interested in (and up to 4 books at a time, though books from the current year aren't allowed -- e.g. you would have to wait until the beginning of 2008 to obtain a book that came out in 2007), which you would then have (just as with a regular library book) to look at, make notes from etc. for a few weeks, gratis (supposedly a charge can sometimes be applied, but I have used the service a number of times and have never been charged anything).
  
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Re: Tarrasch Line
Reply #5 - 11/28/07 at 14:40:05
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Someo,ne : Keilhack (assume you do not mean Schiller).
  
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Bibs
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Re: Tarrasch Line
Reply #4 - 11/28/07 at 13:50:51
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People are generally happy to help here, but too many duff qs do stretch the patience.
So, on yer bike and off to the library then sss.

Call me old -fashioned but if I want to find out about a line, I buy a book. Tiresome to play the 'I'm a pauper' card. Ask yer granny if she can give you a book for Christmas this year instead of foisting another knitted checked sweater on you.

If you know next-to-nothing, which sometimes appears to be the case, your library may have a well-thumbed copy of BCO which you can peruse while keeping warm.

If all people did as you, chess writers would have no income and would stop writing. And would have to get a proper job which may deleteriously affect a nation's productivity. Thus no chess books for the rest of us.

Regarding sponsorship, I fear our collective coffers may contain insufficient.

Tarrasch books: aagard and someone I think. Or chessgames.com. Free.
  
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sssthepro
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Re: Tarrasch Line
Reply #3 - 11/28/07 at 08:23:26
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ErictheRed wrote on 11/28/07 at 06:05:27:
You ask so many questions like this that it makes me wonder whether you own a single chess book.  Perhaps you should buy a one volume opening tome like NCO so that you can at least check the fairly main lines.  Or peruse them at your local bookstore.  Or order some online.  Or something!  Do expect us to answer every single question?  It's one thing to ask an opinion about a particular position, but another thing entirely to just ask for book moves.  9...c4!? is one of the main lines of the Tarrasch defence, and is covered in many books, old and new.

That said, 10.Ne5 Be6 11.Nxc6 bc 12.b3 is probably critical, as it challenges the essence of Black's whole idea.  Would you like me to consult the 3 or 4 books I own that cover this line and write out all the analysis for you?  What are you really asking???


I do have chess books, just that I am not as rich as some people who attempt to get hold of their hands on books on every single line and variation, or those people who will buy a whole new book when they find a single line they are not sure about. It just so happens that the variations I stated are not given in my chess books. If you sponsor me to buy a chess book whenever I find something I don't know, I will gladly do so...

Anyway, my book mentions ...c4, but not on move 9, and in the variations given, the knight moves to e7 instead of f6, therefore I am asking what happens when the knight on is f6. I analysed the position my myself, but could not find something convincing, therefore I posted a thread. What is wrong with that? Isn't a forum a place where people ask questions and discuss about things?

I am not asking you to reproduce whole variations (although if you are kind enough to do so, thank you very much). I would just like some pointers (like what you said, Nxc6 and b3) that would point me to the correct path of analysis, or maybe some general guidelines on what to do in this position.

If you think that that I am posting too much rubbish, sorry then. I will stop posting in the forums. Maybe searching the libray for 1 hour and finding nothing is better than posting a thread and getting scolded and flamed.

Thank you all those who helped to answer my questions. You guys have helped me a lot.

P.S. Sorry for the troll.
  
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Re: Tarrasch Line
Reply #2 - 11/28/07 at 07:39:03
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Preach it, brother Eric.

Speaking of NCO ...as I (sort of) mentioned in a previous thread, I think that many of the folks posting here could do far worse than plan to get the forthcoming MCO-15 (edited by GM Nick de Firmian).

Reminds me of a recent article by GM Lev Alburt in the American magazine Chess Life, saying basically that [the somewhat similar] ECO is a cornerstone of modern chess and a valuable tool for class players, who should make use of it rather than going around trying to reinvent the wheel.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Tarrasch Line
Reply #1 - 11/28/07 at 06:05:27
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You ask so many questions like this that it makes me wonder whether you own a single chess book.  Perhaps you should buy a one volume opening tome like NCO so that you can at least check the fairly main lines.  Or peruse them at your local bookstore.  Or order some online.  Or something!  Do expect us to answer every single question?  It's one thing to ask an opinion about a particular position, but another thing entirely to just ask for book moves.  9...c4!? is one of the main lines of the Tarrasch defence, and is covered in many books, old and new.

That said, 10.Ne5 Be6 11.Nxc6 bc 12.b3 is probably critical, as it challenges the essence of Black's whole idea.  Would you like me to consult the 3 or 4 books I own that cover this line and write out all the analysis for you?  What are you really asking???
  
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sssthepro
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Tarrasch Line
11/28/07 at 05:13:17
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I have a question about one Tarrasch Line. After

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c5 4.cxd5 exd5 5.g3 Nf6 6.Bg2 Nc6 7.0-0 Be7 8.Nc3 0-0 9.Bg5 c4!? (9...cxd4 is the mainline)

This is an interesting line. Usually, Black players play this early in the game, but it seems that it is more effective if you play this move here. Some lines here.

10.Ne5 (Fritz suggested this) Be6 (10...Nxe5 11.dxe5 Nd7 12.Bxe7 Qxe7 13.Nxd5 Qxe5 14.Qc2 (Or 14.f4 and 15.e4) ) 11.e3 h6 12.Bxf6 Bxf6 13.f4 Ne7 Is White better here? It seems that Black is very solid, and it is not very clear how White can attack on the kingside. 

Another line is 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.e4 Nxe4 (12...dxe4 13.Nxe4 Nxe4 14.Bxe7 Qxe7 15.Bxe4 Bd5 also looks okay) 13.Bxe7 Nxc3 14.Bxd8 Nxd1 15.Be7 Nxb2 16.Bxf8 Kxf8

Black has two pawns for the piece, a passed pawn and a terror knight on d3. Actually, I like Black here. 

Therefore, what should be played?
  
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