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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C18: winawer poisoned pawn books (Read 90448 times)
Fllg
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #20 - 07/15/10 at 18:12:46
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Paddy wrote on 07/06/10 at 23:45:58:
I assume Bibs was referring to the line 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Qc7 7. Qg4 f5 8. Qg3 cxd4 9. cxd4 Ne7 and now instead of the old 10.Bd2 etc White plays 10. Ne2 O-O 11. c3, e.g. 11...b6 12. Nf4 Qd7 13. a4 Ba6 14. Bb5! and Black's game is difficult. He probably has to change plan and play 11...Nc6, or Moskalenko's 8...Nc6. The Qc7 line has not been seen much in recent years, probably owing to this line and to the fact that even the old main lines of the Qc7 system are not exactly a bed of roses for Black.

If you are a subscriber to the French section of Chess Publishing, the quoted line, analysed by Neil McDonald, should be available to you in the archives.

If you have improvements, please post them here, since I am sure that there are many Winawer fans who would like to see the Qc7 line become a viable option once more!


I have already stated elsewhere in this forum that I had this in a game with White in 2005 which continued after 14.Bb5 Nec6 15.h4 Bxb5 16.axb5 Na5 17.h5 and now instead of 17... Nb3? analysed by Khalifman my opponent played the far superior 17... Qf7! and White seems to have no advantage. This has also been played by german GM Arik Braun vs. Zude in 2009 where Black won. I haven´t found anything really promising for White so as far as I can say Black is in good shape after 6... Qc7.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #19 - 07/15/10 at 17:43:09
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Well, 13...d4 is the best move according to Vitiugov, though the reason he gives is that 13...O-O-O is well met with 14.Nxc3.

There is something of analogue to the linked analysis after 13...d4, namely 14.Rg1 O-O-O 15.g4 (15.Nxd4 Nxd4 16.Qxd4 Bb5 17.Qxa7 Bxf1 18.Kxf1 Qc4+!=) 15...Be8 16.Rg3 Na5!, which is analyzed by Vitiugov and considered equal.

So, is the linked, 1995 analysis relevant anymore?
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #18 - 07/15/10 at 16:01:32
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@Jonathan Tait
Thanks for this upload. The article is very interesting as I was not aware of this white setup at all. (Maybe not entirely my fault as this line was not yet invented and played when I studied the theory of this line with Uhlmann's book etc.) So it was a good overview for me now.

Checking some recent corr games against this, I found one with an idea not mentioned in your paper. The black player had lost a game with 18... Rxg1 in 2007, so he came up here with what seems to me to be a better try.

[Event "WCCC33PR03"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2009.04.10"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Shishkov, Pavel Aleksandrovic"]
[Black "Willigen, Jan Willem van"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C18"]
[WhiteElo "2291"]
[BlackElo "2378"]
[EventDate "2009.??.??"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. Qg4 Qc7 8. Qxg7 Rg8 9. Qxh7 cxd4 10. Ne2 Nbc6 11. f4 Bd7 12. Qd3 dxc3 13. Rb1 O-O-O 14. h4 Nf5 15. h5 d4 16. Rg1 f6 17. g4 fxe5 18. gxf5 exf5 19. Rxg8 Rxg8 20. Qc4 Qd8 21. Kd1 Rg4 22. Qd5 e4 23. Nxd4 Rg1 24. Nxc6 Rxf1+ 1/2-1/2

Enjoy.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #17 - 07/15/10 at 07:43:56
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 07/06/10 at 17:33:24:
here it is Smiley

http://www.sendspace.com/file/9mrree

alternate left/right A5 across each A4 page (I don't know how to extract the relevant 'half pages' from the scan)


total downloads: 35 Shocked

any comments from anybody?
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #16 - 07/06/10 at 23:45:58
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Troilus wrote on 07/06/10 at 16:44:58:
"Had watson 1 and 2 years back, but moving house few times, then country - got left behind. Have PtF3 here but his winawer line is of course busted. Fortunately was shown the bust by a visiting GMelect mate before I played the line (he lost in it)."

What bust is that? Every attempt that I've seen, and there have been several, is flawed. Please be specific. 'Of course' is such a useful phrase when one lacks evidence.


I assume Bibs was referring to the line 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Qc7 7. Qg4 f5 8. Qg3 cxd4 9. cxd4 Ne7 and now instead of the old 10.Bd2 etc White plays 10. Ne2 O-O 11. c3, e.g. 11...b6 12. Nf4 Qd7 13. a4 Ba6 14. Bb5! and Black's game is difficult. He probably has to change plan and play 11...Nc6, or Moskalenko's 8...Nc6. The Qc7 line has not been seen much in recent years, probably owing to this line and to the fact that even the old main lines of the Qc7 system are not exactly a bed of roses for Black.

If you are a subscriber to the French section of Chess Publishing, the quoted line, analysed by Neil McDonald, should be available to you in the archives.

If you have improvements, please post them here, since I am sure that there are many Winawer fans who would like to see the Qc7 line become a viable option once more!
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #15 - 07/06/10 at 17:33:24
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Fllg wrote on 07/06/10 at 16:00:18:
Jonathan Tait wrote on 07/06/10 at 11:30:34:
I can scan the article and post it up for download if anyone is still interested? (Theory has moved on a bit since then.)


That would be great! Thank you in advance.


here it is Smiley

http://www.sendspace.com/file/9mrree

alternate left/right A5 across each A4 page (I don't know how to extract the relevant 'half pages' from the scan)
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #14 - 07/06/10 at 16:44:58
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"Had watson 1 and 2 years back, but moving house few times, then country - got left behind. Have PtF3 here but his winawer line is of course busted. Fortunately was shown the bust by a visiting GMelect mate before I played the line (he lost in it)."

What bust is that? Every attempt that I've seen, and there have been several, is flawed. Please be specific. 'Of course' is such a useful phrase when one lacks evidence.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #13 - 07/06/10 at 16:00:18
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 07/06/10 at 11:30:34:
I can scan the article and post it up for download if anyone is still interested? (Theory has moved on a bit since then.)


That would be great! Thank you in advance.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #12 - 07/06/10 at 15:38:50
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Also a good source of fresh info is NIC Yearbook. I will check at home in which issues this line has been covered recently.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #11 - 07/06/10 at 13:24:07
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Bibs wrote on 11/29/07 at 02:30:27:
Inn2
Thanks for that.

I have Khalif, Psakhis, Pedersen. Khalif naturally very thorough and impressive. Psakhis bit of a phone directory - as noted in previous thread - a shocking format, but fair content. Pedersen - agree - unimpressive. Chess book by numbers.
Have McD's Winawer book too - bit too short frankly, but what is there is reasonable.

Had watson 1 and 2 years back, but moving house few times, then country - got left behind. Have PtF3 here but his winawer line is of course busted. Fortunately was shown the bust by a visiting GMelect mate before I played the line (he lost in it).

Yeah - the real PP book has yet to be written (in English anyhow). Other languages? Mnb may be the expert here...? Anyone?

Agree. Perhaps Neil could pen one - an e4 e6 repertoire book maybe. With Guimard thrown in to boot.

Thanks again Inn2,

Bibs



Sorry, slightly off-topic, but where is Watson's Winawer line busted in PTF 3?

Thanks
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #10 - 07/06/10 at 11:30:34
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Paddy wrote on 11/29/07 at 11:34:54:
A few other sources that might be useful;

Much of the "busting" of the PP has been taking place in correspondence chess - check out especially the white games of Jonathan Tait. He wrote an influential article in Correspondence Chess 127 (!995) about his experiences with what has become known in PP circles as the Tait Variation: 13 Rb1 0-0-0 14 h4 Nf5 15 h5 d4 16 Rg1.


It was always known round here as "The Big Line" Smiley
as in: "I got to play The Big Line"
with the usual corollary: "I therefore won very easily"

I can scan the article and post it up for download if anyone is still interested? (Theory has moved on a bit since then.)
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #9 - 12/04/07 at 02:10:51
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Don't forget the Moles book, also there was an book put out by ECO on the French (I think by Victor Kortcinoi), Mastering the French has some stuff in it, oh (man I had a chance to get my hands on it) way back, I think Keres wrote a french book.

Yeah guys, I am waiting for that poison pawn book too. Oh but I think for me, Chess Pub is really the only place now to get some Poision Pawn stuff.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #8 - 12/01/07 at 12:42:47
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Bibs wrote on 12/01/07 at 05:54:47:
Leeroth, Paddy, Inn2 thanks all for your suggestions.

Paddy
Correspondence chess mag - looks worth a look certainly. Tried to google but stumped. How .


"Correspondence chess" is the long-running magazine of the British Correspondence Chess Association, which has a website with contact details at

http://www.bcca.info

For many years under the editorship of Jon Tait it was a great magazine, and it's still a good one.

The French seems still to be quite popular in corres chess (perhaps because the positions can be hard for computers to "understand"!).




  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #7 - 12/01/07 at 08:48:58
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Stigma,

thanks for that. Saves stumping up cash for something I would struggle to read!


  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #6 - 12/01/07 at 08:32:05
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I have both editions of the Uhlmann book (Winning with the French, Batsford 1995 and Französisch richtig gespielt - Ein Leben lang Französisch, Beyer 2004) so might be well-placed to compare them.

[2004] basically contains 15 more games, although not all 15 were played after 1991 (the year of the first german edition). Unfortunately from a Poisoned Pawn perspective, Uhlmann largely switched to 7...0-0 from the late 80s on, so both books have the same 7 main games with 7...Qc7, and probably no really new material (I could do a more detailed comparison later).

One curious glitch in [2004] is the game Short-Uhlmann, 1988 with the line 7.Qg4 0-0 8.Bd3 Nbc6 9.Qh5 h6?, were the book gives a lenghty analysis of 9...Ng6, and then "forgets" to return to the actual Short-Uhlmann game, giving instead the concluding moves (with analysis) of Anand-Lputian, 2000!
  

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