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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C18: winawer poisoned pawn books (Read 90655 times)
Jonathan Tait
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #50 - 02/22/11 at 09:23:45
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Returning to this...

Markovich wrote on 07/16/10 at 00:08:24:
I did encounter this, however:

[Event "Cto. de Espańa Individual Absoluto"]
[Date "2009.09.28"]
[White "Vehi Bach Victor Manuel"]
[Black "Vallejo Pons Francisco"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2381"]
[BlackElo "2696"]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 Ne7 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 c5 7.Qg4 cxd4 8.Qxg7 Rg8 9.Qxh7 Qc7 10.Ne2 Nbc6 11.f4 dxc3 12.Qd3 Bd7 13.h4 Nf5 14.Rb1 d4 15.h5 O-O-O 16.Rg1 Kb8 17.g4 Nh6 18.g5 Nf5 19.Bg2 Na5 20.Rb4 Nc6 21.Rb1 b6 22.Be4 Nce7 23.Kf2 Qc5 24.Ng3 Ba4 25.Kg2 Ne3+ 26.Bxe3 dxe3 27.Qa6 Bc6 28.Kh3 Rd2 29.Rbe1 Nd5 30.Kg4 Bb5 0-1

Big difference in rating.  20.Bh3!.  But Black had better in 19...Bc8, which was played in an amateur game in my data base. This appears critical.  I notice in passing that 16...Kb8 wasn't considered by Tait in the linked material.


Actually I did struggle against this sort of idea in the recent online thematic:

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2010.??.??"]
[White "tsmenace"]
[Black "pdchessvamp"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C18"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. Qg4 Qc7 8. Qxg7 Rg8 9. Qxh7 cxd4 10. Ne2 dxc3 11. f4 Bd7 12. Qd3 Nbc6 13. Rb1 d4 14. h4 Nf5 15. h5 O-O-O 16. Rg1 Rg4 17. g3 Kb8 18. Bh3 Rgg8 19. g4 Nfe7 20. h6 b6 21. Ng3 Bc8 22. Ne4 Ng6 23. g5 Bb7 24. Nf6 Ncxe5 25. fxe5 Nxe5 26. Qg3 d3 27. Bf4 Nf3+ 28. Qxf3 e5 29. Qxb7+ Kxb7 30. Be3 dxc2 31. Rc1 Rd1+ 32. Rxd1 cxd1Q+ 33. Kxd1 Rd8+ 34. Ke2 Qc4+ 35. Kf2 Qh4+ 36. Kg2 Rd3 37. Rh1 Qc4 38. Kf2 Qa2+ 39. Kf3 Qd2 40. Ng4 c2 41. h7 Qd1+ 42. Kg3 Qxh1 43. Bg2+ Qxg2+ 44. Kxg2 Rxe3 45. h8Q Re2+ 46. Kf3 Re1 0-1

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2010.??.??"]
[White "tsmenace"]
[Black "tarby"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C18"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. Qg4 Qc7 8. Qxg7 Rg8 9. Qxh7 cxd4 10. Ne2 Nbc6 11. f4 Bd7 12. Qd3 dxc3 13. Rb1 O-O-O 14. h4 Nf5 15. h5 d4 16. Rg1 Rg4 17. g3 Kb8 18. Bh3 Rgg8 19. g4 Nh4 20. Kf2 Bc8 21. Ng3 b6 22. Ne4 Bb7 23. Nf6 Rh8 24. Kg3 Nf3 25. Rf1 Nd2 26. Bxd2 cxd2 27. Qxd2 Na5 28. Qxa5 bxa5 29. Bg2 Qb6 30. Rfd1 Bxg2 31. Kxg2 Qxb1 32. Rxb1+ Ka8 33. Rd1 Rc8 34. Rd2 Rc3 35. Rxd4 Rxc2+ 36. Kg3 Rc3+ 37. Kh4 Rxa3 38. Kg5 a4 39. Nd7 Rg8+ 40. Kf6 Rxg4 41. Nc5 Kb8 42. Kxf7 Rf3 43. Rd8+ Kc7 44. Nxe6+ Kb6 45. Kf6 Rh3 46. Rd6+ Ka5 47. Rd5+ Kb6 48. Rd6+ 1/2-1/2

The line 16...Rg4 17 g3 Kb8 18 Bh3 Rgg8 19 g4 is a bit odd. If Black is going to play this way then why not 16...Kb8 at once, since it's basically the same position minus the extra Bh3 for White.

In the first game 24 Nf6?? was a bit embarrassing, since Fritz throws up 24...Ncxe5! (and 26...d3! etc) in 0.03 seconds. 24 Rg3 was correct. In the second game 28 Qxa5!? didn't quite work out either. But I have to admit that it's not easy for White to make progress in any case.

15...Kb8!? is interesting too:

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2010.??.??"]
[White "tsmenace"]
[Black "samurai"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C18"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. Qg4 Qc7 8. Qxg7 Rg8 9. Qxh7 cxd4 10. Ne2 Nbc6 11. f4 dxc3 12. Qd3 Bd7 13. Rb1 O-O-O 14. h4 Nf5 15. h5 Kb8 16. Qxc3 Rc8 17. Bd2 Ka8 18. g3 Qd8 19. Qd3 f6 20. exf6 Qxf6 21. Bh3 Nd6 22. Bc3 Qf8 23. Bb2 Na5 24. Bd4 Nac4 25. Bg2 Nf5 26. Bf2 Nxa3 27. Rb2 Nc4 28. Ra2 a6 29. h6 Nxh6 30. Qd4 Kb8 31. Qa7+ Kc7 32. Bc5 Qf7 33. Rxa6 Nf5 34. Bb6+ Kd6 35. Qxb7 Ke7 36. Bf2 Nfd6 37. Qb1 Qg6 38. Nd4 Rb8 39. Qc1 Rh8 40. Rxh8 Rxh8 41. Ra7 Rc8 42. Qa1 Ke8 43. Nf3 Nf7 44. Kf1 Qxc2 45. Qg7 Qc1+ 46. Ne1 Ncd6 47. Bf3 Qc3 48. Qg6 Rc7 49. Rxc7 Qxc7 50. Kg2 Kf8 51. Nd3 1/2-1/2

I don't really want to play Qxc3 in these positions (at least not before White has consolidated), but what else is there? If 16 Rg1 then 16...Nh6!? and White's kingside play has stalled. The rest of the game was just a mess in which I had little idea what was going on. It would take a lot more test games before any sort of conclusions might be drawn here I think.
  
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Keano
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #49 - 10/07/10 at 12:05:02
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Markovich wrote on 07/21/10 at 17:06:02:
But remember that if you want to play the Poisoned Pawn, 7...cxd4 is more precise.


Thats another thing Vitiugov said in his book which I disagree with. Its a matter of personal preference which way to go, and I prefer 7...Qc7 myself after which 8.Qxg7 is still the best move.

After 7...cxd4 8.cxd4!? (8.Qxg7 is again best) Qc7 White has a choice between 9.Ra2, 9.Kd1, 9.Bd2!? none of which are trivial. Like I said I think its personal preference, check if you prefer to play these positions or the ones after 7...Qc7 8.Bd3
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #48 - 09/28/10 at 02:13:12
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The thread started out with a question about books on the Winawer PP.

A source which was not mentioned at all is CBM 129. Knut Neven did a thorough article on the PP. It is not ment to be a reference work but it is comprehensive and introduces new ideas - very interesting.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #47 - 08/26/10 at 16:03:28
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I should correct myself:  7...cxd4 8.Bd3 leads to a game that is fine for Black, but not necessarily to an endgame.
« Last Edit: 08/27/10 at 13:59:59 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #46 - 08/24/10 at 13:35:05
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gewgaw wrote on 08/23/10 at 18:30:48:
"But remember that if you want to play the Poisoned Pawn, 7...cxd4 is more precise."

1.why?
2. Kasimdschanov recommended in beating the french 1 after 12. ...Bd7 13. Nc3 with the idea 14.h4 and Rh3 to protect the Nc3 "and practise has shown, that white has better prospects"  In his opinion 7.Qg4 0-0 is better, but he cant give any improvements for black in the game Karjakin - yussupov Cheesy Tongue
---> the french seems busted  Roll Eyes


The first has just been answered by ReneDescartes.  As to the second, is your opinion informed by any acquaintance with Vitiugov or with Watson's updates?  According to Watson, the stock of the Poisoned Pawn is pretty high right now.

One thing I observe is that Shulman keeps  playing it.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #45 - 08/23/10 at 21:03:40
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(1) I think Markovich was reminding me that if you  want to induce White to enter the classic Poison Pawn tabiya then current theory says you should not allow White the option of  7...Qc7 8.Bd3.  7...cxd4 8.Bd3 is thought to lead to a favorable endgame for Black.

(2) Well, no surprise there: you should have known that the French was busted as soon as you saw that there exist books with the title "Beating the French." Or read the first third of this thread.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #44 - 08/23/10 at 18:30:48
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But remember that if you want to play the Poisoned Pawn, 7...cxd4 is more precise. [/quote]

1.why?
2. Kasimdschanov recommended in beating the french 1 after 12. ...Bd7 13. Nc3 with the idea 14.h4 and Rh3 to protect the Nc3 "and practise has shown, that white has better prospects"  In his opinion 7.Qg4 0-0 is better, but he cant give any improvements for black in the game Karjakin - yussupov Cheesy Tongue
---> the french seems busted  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #43 - 07/22/10 at 19:48:22
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@Tolotos:

Thanks very much for those ideas, which I'll take a serious look at.  I've fiddled with the pieces some along your lines, and Black does indeed seem to have some play, though I think White's game in general should be easier.

Papageno wrote on 07/21/10 at 21:48:21:
Markovich wrote on 07/20/10 at 19:43:09:
(...) the older 16...f6 17.g4 Nh4 18.exf6 e5 19.f7 Rg7 and claims that Black has great compensation.  Who am I to disagree with an IM, but I can't see it after 20.f5 Rxf7 21.Rg3 e4 22.Qb3 Ne5 23.Bf4 Re7(...)

A recent corr game finished this way instead:
22... e3 23. Qxf7 Ne5 24. Qd5 Bc6 25. Qe6+ Bd7 26. Qd5 Bc6 27. Qe6+ Bd7 28. Qd5 Bc6 29. Qe6+ 1/2-1/2 Jirku,J (2332)-Volek,S (2308)/ICCF 2009
Nice improvement, I think.


Brilliant.  Thanks for that!
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #42 - 07/22/10 at 11:11:19
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Markovich wrote on 07/20/10 at 19:43:09:
I am really pissed off at Vitiugov now, noticing not only that he fails to treat the Tait Variation, but also that, after
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 Qc7 8.Qxg7 Rg8 9.Qxh7 cxd4 10.Ne2 Nbc6 11.f4 dxc3 12.Qd3 Bd7 13.Qxc3 Nf5 14.Rb1 O-O-O 15.Rg1 d4 16.Qd3 Na5  17.g4 Ba4 he gives only 18.c3 and blithely ignores 18.gxf5, for example 18...Bxc2 19.Qb5 Rxg1 20.Nxg1 was Smirnov-Arslanov, 2009.  Arslanov chose 20...a6 21. Qb6 Bxb1 22. Qxb1 Nb3 23. Kd1 Qc3 and lost; Goh Wei Ming (update May 2009) suggests 23...Nc5 but I still think White's game is easier.  Maybe I'm wrong because Black has drawn a couple of games, including Colastri-Cornette, Cap d'Agde 2008, which oddly enough isn't cited by Goh Wei Ming.


1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 Qc7 8.Qxg7 Rg8 9.Qxh7 cxd4 10.Ne2 Nbc6 11.f4 dxc3 12.Qd3 Bd7 13.Qxc3 Nf5 14.Rb1 O-O-O 15.Rg1 d4 16.Qd3 Na5  17.g4 Ba4 18.gxf5 Bxc2 19.Qb5 Rxg1 20.Nxg1 a6 21.Qb6 Bxb1 22.Qxb1 Nb3 23.Kd1 Nc5
My first impression was also that white is better here (R vs B+N ;h pawn) but the black pieces are well placed and coordinated,specially the knight on c5!

A) 24.Bd2 Kb8 (24...Dc6 25.fxe6 fxe6 26.Qc2 b6     27.Bxa6  Kb8 28.Bf1 Rg8 29.Nh3 Rg2!) 25.fxe6 fxe6 26.Ke1 Qc6 27.Qb4 (27.Qc2 Farkas-Weber ICCF 2009 1/2) Qh1 28.Qxc5 Qxg1 29.Qb6 Rh8=

B)24.Qc2 Qc6 25.fxe6 (25.Bg2 Calistri-Cornette 2008 1/2) fxe6 26.f5 Tg8 27.Nh3 d3 28.Qc4 Th8=

C)24.fxe6 fxe6 25.Nh3 Qc6 26.Bd2 Qf3+ 27.Ke1 Qxa3 28.Qb4 Qa1+ 29.Ke2 d3+ 30.Kf2 b6 31.Qxb6 Ne4+ 32.Kg2 Nxd2 33.Qc5+ Kb7 34.Qb4+ Kc8 35.Qxd2 Qb1=
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #41 - 07/21/10 at 21:48:21
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Markovich wrote on 07/20/10 at 19:43:09:
(...) the older 16...f6 17.g4 Nh4 18.exf6 e5 19.f7 Rg7 and claims that Black has great compensation.  Who am I to disagree with an IM, but I can't see it after 20.f5 Rxf7 21.Rg3 e4 22.Qb3 Ne5 23.Bf4 Re7(...)

A recent corr game finished this way instead:
22... e3 23. Qxf7 Ne5 24. Qd5 Bc6 25. Qe6+ Bd7 26. Qd5 Bc6 27. Qe6+ Bd7 28. Qd5 Bc6 29. Qe6+ 1/2-1/2 Jirku,J (2332)-Volek,S (2308)/ICCF 2009
Nice improvement, I think.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #40 - 07/21/10 at 17:06:02
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ReneDescartes wrote on 07/20/10 at 22:10:27:
Re: 16..f6: sorry, I didn't connect the dots. In the Harding game, maybe White can improve with 20.Kd1, preventing ...Qh4 (for the moment), but it does look like Black gets good compensation for the piece, with a huge flotilla of central pawns. Well, that's good news as far as I'm concerned.

In fact, the upshot of the latter part of this thread overall (no bust) is good news for me, since 7...Qc7 is in my repertoire and a real bust to it would be distressing, to say the least.


But remember that if you want to play the Poisoned Pawn, 7...cxd4 is more precise.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #39 - 07/21/10 at 07:36:44
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Markovich wrote on 07/20/10 at 19:43:09:
I am really pissed off at Vitiugov now, noticing not only that he fails to treat the Tait Variation, but also that, after
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 Qc7 8.Qxg7 Rg8 9.Qxh7 cxd4 10.Ne2 Nbc6 11.f4 dxc3 12.Qd3 Bd7 13.Qxc3 Nf5 14.Rb1 O-O-O 15.Rg1 d4 16.Qd3 Na5  17.g4 Ba4 he gives only 18.c3 and blithely ignores 18.gxf5, for example 18...Bxc2 19.Qb5 Rxg1 20.Nxg1 was Smirnov-Arslanov, 2009.  Arslanov chose 20...a6 21. Qb6 Bxb1 22. Qxb1 Nb3 23. Kd1 Qc3 and lost; Goh Wei Ming (update May 2009) suggests 23...Nc5 but I still think White's game is easier.  Maybe I'm wrong because Black has drawn a couple of games, including Colastri-Cornette, Cap d'Agde 2008, which oddly enough isn't cited by Goh Wei Ming.

Goh Wei Ming also mentions 20... Bxf5 21.Bd2 Bxb1 22.Qxa5 b6 23.Qb4 Be4, and Black did draw two cc games after 20.Nh3, but to me it looks difficult for Black. 

Goh Wei Ming further mentions the older 16...f6 17.g4 Nh4 18.exf6 e5 19.f7 Rg7 and claims that Black has great compensation.  Who am I to disagree with an IM, but I can't see it after 20.f5 Rxf7 21.Rg3 e4 22.Qb3 Ne5 23.Bf4 Re7 as played in a CC game and now (instead of 24.f7) 24.Nxd4 Nhf3+ 25.Rxf3 exf3 26.Kf2 and White is much better, I opine.

Anyway I think that anyone who expects to be able to use Vitiugov as a basic resource for Black in the Winawer should think again, in view of his omission of at least two quite critical lines.


He fails to mention a lot of stuff does good ol' Vitiugov - a nice chap with a high rating no doubt but as I said before this book is not really what French players were looking for: 5/10.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #38 - 07/20/10 at 22:10:27
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Re: 16..f6: sorry, I didn't connect the dots. In the Harding game, maybe White can improve with 20.Kd1, preventing ...Qh4 (for the moment), but it does look like Black gets good compensation for the piece, with a huge flotilla of central pawns. Well, that's good news as far as I'm concerned.

In fact, the upshot of the latter part of this thread overall (no bust) is good news for me, since 7...Qc7 is in my repertoire and a real bust to it would be distressing, to say the least.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #37 - 07/20/10 at 19:43:09
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I am really pissed off at Vitiugov now, noticing not only that he fails to treat the Tait Variation, but also that, after
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 Qc7 8.Qxg7 Rg8 9.Qxh7 cxd4 10.Ne2 Nbc6 11.f4 dxc3 12.Qd3 Bd7 13.Qxc3 Nf5 14.Rb1 O-O-O 15.Rg1 d4 16.Qd3 Na5  17.g4 Ba4 he gives only 18.c3 and blithely ignores 18.gxf5, for example 18...Bxc2 19.Qb5 Rxg1 20.Nxg1 was Smirnov-Arslanov, 2009.  Arslanov chose 20...a6 21. Qb6 Bxb1 22. Qxb1 Nb3 23. Kd1 Qc3 and lost; Goh Wei Ming (update May 2009) suggests 23...Nc5 but I still think White's game is easier.  Maybe I'm wrong because Black has drawn a couple of games, including Colastri-Cornette, Cap d'Agde 2008, which oddly enough isn't cited by Goh Wei Ming.

Goh Wei Ming also mentions 20... Bxf5 21.Bd2 Bxb1 22.Qxa5 b6 23.Qb4 Be4, and Black did draw two cc games after 20.Nh3, but to me it looks difficult for Black. 

Goh Wei Ming further mentions the older 16...f6 17.g4 Nh4 18.exf6 e5 19.f7 Rg7 and claims that Black has great compensation.  Who am I to disagree with an IM, but I can't see it after 20.f5 Rxf7 21.Rg3 e4 22.Qb3 Ne5 23.Bf4 Re7 as played in a CC game and now (instead of 24.f7) 24.Nxd4 Nhf3+ 25.Rxf3 exf3 26.Kf2 and White is much better, I opine.

Anyway I think that anyone who expects to be able to use Vitiugov as a basic resource for Black in the Winawer should think again, in view of his omission of at least two quite critical lines.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #36 - 07/20/10 at 19:26:36
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ReneDescartes wrote on 07/20/10 at 18:56:04:
Well, Mr. Tait is to be commended for posting his analysis, but not for his bluster (the "corollary") at the beginning of this thread. The reaction when you and others called his bluff sets my mind at ease about any hidden busts.

Unfortunately 16 ...f6 has scored an abysmal 18% from 11 games in my database.  The problem seems to be

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 Qc7 8.Qxg7 Rg8 9.Qxh7 cxd4 10.Ne2 Nbc6 11.f4 dxc3 12.Qd3 d4 13.Rb1 Bd7 14.h4 Nf5 15.h5 0-0-0 16.Rg1 f6 17.g4 Nh6 18.exf6 Rxg4 19.Rxg4 Nxg4 and now 20.f7 and 20.Qg6 with the idea of f7 have scored well for White. If White has the nerve to do it, he could make things even sharper with 20.Nxd5 and it doesn't look that easy to me for Black to exploit the opening of the center with a7 hanging.


I don't think we need to belabor the whole politeness thing, since Tait evidently took some unintended offense to the way I expressed myself.  Apparently he doesn't want to share his private conclusions, which I respect.

In the line you quote Black has 17...fxe5 18.gxf5 exf5 with quite a bit of play, as shown in a Harding game quoted above by Tait.
  
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