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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C18: winawer poisoned pawn books (Read 73671 times)
JEH
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Re: C18: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #62 - 02/02/18 at 10:26:03
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Keano wrote on 02/01/18 at 19:56:44:
When Magnus plays the Winawer Poisoned Pawn the world should take note Smiley


If he plays it again, be afraid, be very afraid  Smiley
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Keano
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Re: C18: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #61 - 02/01/18 at 19:56:44
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Indeed. check  Giri, A - Carlsen, M, Wijk aan Zee 2018, in John Watsons January update.

When Magnus plays the Winawer Poisoned Pawn the world should take note Smiley

  
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dom
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Re: C18: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #60 - 01/19/16 at 18:35:43
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Thanks Jon for sharing ...  Smiley
one more useful experience in this line
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I browsed one book quickly (Berg's book about french and PP ?? I am not sure) last december in another french chessclub...and have read that giving the d pawn as Black (d5-d4) is now the "main line" in the PP ... maybe you have a point of view about it . Usually "main" or "modern" qualifier is a way to suggest to play it.
  

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Jonathan Tait
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Re: C18: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #59 - 01/19/16 at 10:13:26
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Another game with 16...f6 from last night:



24 Be3? and 25 Be2?? were losing moves – of course I missed the tactic. Instead, the king should have gone to f2, when White may well be winning. Even so, the game is a nice addition to the theory.
  

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Re: C18: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #58 - 01/12/13 at 14:12:38
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bump
  
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Seth_Xoma
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #57 - 03/03/11 at 03:59:04
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Gambit wrote on 03/03/11 at 03:23:31:
I should be able to find some games with 6...c5 and 6...Bd7. Also, you may research before the game, but what if your opponent plays a different opening? Grin


Well, if the opponent doesn't play the Winckelmann-Reimer Gambit then Black is guaranteed easy equality.  Wink
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #56 - 03/03/11 at 03:23:31
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I should be able to find some games with 6...c5 and 6...Bd7. Also, you may research before the game, but what if your opponent plays a different opening? Grin
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #55 - 03/02/11 at 20:31:37
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It's no use pointing this out to LDZ. He will only endlessly repeat his mantra. It's better to ask him a question:

Gambit wrote on 03/02/11 at 17:25:23:
the Winckelmann-Reimer Gambit, 1 d4 d5 2 e4 e6 3 Nc3 Bb4 4 a3 Bxc3+ 5 bxc3 dxe4 6 f3!
looks good to me.

Have you already found good ways to meet 6...c5 and especially 6...Bd7? It was nice how you showed White's compensation after 6...b6 7.Bb5+, but this obviously doesn't work after 6...Bd7. I am looking forward to your answer in that WRG-thread.
This one is about the Winawer Poisoned Pawn, which doesn't begin with 4.a3, and especially about books on the WPP.
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #54 - 03/02/11 at 18:58:54
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Gambit wrote on 03/02/11 at 17:25:23:
Fritz this, Rybka that... Pfft... You can't use a computer to help you in an online or over-the-board game.


This is done all the time. The work with the computer was done before the game and you remember your research during play.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #53 - 03/02/11 at 17:25:23
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Fritz this, Rybka that... Pfft... You can't use a computer to help you in an online or over-the-board game. And the Winckelmann-Reimer Gambit, 1 d4 d5 2 e4 e6 3 Nc3 Bb4 4 a3 Bxc3+ 5 bxc3 dxe4 6 f3!
looks good to me. It creates interesting play.  In OTB chess, where you cannot use a computer to help, it certainly offers good chances.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #52 - 02/22/11 at 20:15:57
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Thanks Jon.
Your ideas or games are very much useful.
My stockfish chess engine likes to play Kf2 ( near 19th or 20th move)...
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #51 - 02/22/11 at 17:11:56
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Thanks for sharing so generously, Jon.  Yes, a lot more practice is needed before all this can be clarified, which could be said of the Winawer in general!
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #50 - 02/22/11 at 09:23:45
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Returning to this...

Markovich wrote on 07/16/10 at 00:08:24:
I did encounter this, however:

[Event "Cto. de Espańa Individual Absoluto"]
[Date "2009.09.28"]
[White "Vehi Bach Victor Manuel"]
[Black "Vallejo Pons Francisco"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2381"]
[BlackElo "2696"]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 Ne7 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 c5 7.Qg4 cxd4 8.Qxg7 Rg8 9.Qxh7 Qc7 10.Ne2 Nbc6 11.f4 dxc3 12.Qd3 Bd7 13.h4 Nf5 14.Rb1 d4 15.h5 O-O-O 16.Rg1 Kb8 17.g4 Nh6 18.g5 Nf5 19.Bg2 Na5 20.Rb4 Nc6 21.Rb1 b6 22.Be4 Nce7 23.Kf2 Qc5 24.Ng3 Ba4 25.Kg2 Ne3+ 26.Bxe3 dxe3 27.Qa6 Bc6 28.Kh3 Rd2 29.Rbe1 Nd5 30.Kg4 Bb5 0-1

Big difference in rating.  20.Bh3!.  But Black had better in 19...Bc8, which was played in an amateur game in my data base. This appears critical.  I notice in passing that 16...Kb8 wasn't considered by Tait in the linked material.


Actually I did struggle against this sort of idea in the recent online thematic:

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2010.??.??"]
[White "tsmenace"]
[Black "pdchessvamp"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C18"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. Qg4 Qc7 8. Qxg7 Rg8 9. Qxh7 cxd4 10. Ne2 dxc3 11. f4 Bd7 12. Qd3 Nbc6 13. Rb1 d4 14. h4 Nf5 15. h5 O-O-O 16. Rg1 Rg4 17. g3 Kb8 18. Bh3 Rgg8 19. g4 Nfe7 20. h6 b6 21. Ng3 Bc8 22. Ne4 Ng6 23. g5 Bb7 24. Nf6 Ncxe5 25. fxe5 Nxe5 26. Qg3 d3 27. Bf4 Nf3+ 28. Qxf3 e5 29. Qxb7+ Kxb7 30. Be3 dxc2 31. Rc1 Rd1+ 32. Rxd1 cxd1Q+ 33. Kxd1 Rd8+ 34. Ke2 Qc4+ 35. Kf2 Qh4+ 36. Kg2 Rd3 37. Rh1 Qc4 38. Kf2 Qa2+ 39. Kf3 Qd2 40. Ng4 c2 41. h7 Qd1+ 42. Kg3 Qxh1 43. Bg2+ Qxg2+ 44. Kxg2 Rxe3 45. h8Q Re2+ 46. Kf3 Re1 0-1

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2010.??.??"]
[White "tsmenace"]
[Black "tarby"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C18"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. Qg4 Qc7 8. Qxg7 Rg8 9. Qxh7 cxd4 10. Ne2 Nbc6 11. f4 Bd7 12. Qd3 dxc3 13. Rb1 O-O-O 14. h4 Nf5 15. h5 d4 16. Rg1 Rg4 17. g3 Kb8 18. Bh3 Rgg8 19. g4 Nh4 20. Kf2 Bc8 21. Ng3 b6 22. Ne4 Bb7 23. Nf6 Rh8 24. Kg3 Nf3 25. Rf1 Nd2 26. Bxd2 cxd2 27. Qxd2 Na5 28. Qxa5 bxa5 29. Bg2 Qb6 30. Rfd1 Bxg2 31. Kxg2 Qxb1 32. Rxb1+ Ka8 33. Rd1 Rc8 34. Rd2 Rc3 35. Rxd4 Rxc2+ 36. Kg3 Rc3+ 37. Kh4 Rxa3 38. Kg5 a4 39. Nd7 Rg8+ 40. Kf6 Rxg4 41. Nc5 Kb8 42. Kxf7 Rf3 43. Rd8+ Kc7 44. Nxe6+ Kb6 45. Kf6 Rh3 46. Rd6+ Ka5 47. Rd5+ Kb6 48. Rd6+ 1/2-1/2

The line 16...Rg4 17 g3 Kb8 18 Bh3 Rgg8 19 g4 is a bit odd. If Black is going to play this way then why not 16...Kb8 at once, since it's basically the same position minus the extra Bh3 for White.

In the first game 24 Nf6?? was a bit embarrassing, since Fritz throws up 24...Ncxe5! (and 26...d3! etc) in 0.03 seconds. 24 Rg3 was correct. In the second game 28 Qxa5!? didn't quite work out either. But I have to admit that it's not easy for White to make progress in any case.

15...Kb8!? is interesting too:

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2010.??.??"]
[White "tsmenace"]
[Black "samurai"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C18"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. Qg4 Qc7 8. Qxg7 Rg8 9. Qxh7 cxd4 10. Ne2 Nbc6 11. f4 dxc3 12. Qd3 Bd7 13. Rb1 O-O-O 14. h4 Nf5 15. h5 Kb8 16. Qxc3 Rc8 17. Bd2 Ka8 18. g3 Qd8 19. Qd3 f6 20. exf6 Qxf6 21. Bh3 Nd6 22. Bc3 Qf8 23. Bb2 Na5 24. Bd4 Nac4 25. Bg2 Nf5 26. Bf2 Nxa3 27. Rb2 Nc4 28. Ra2 a6 29. h6 Nxh6 30. Qd4 Kb8 31. Qa7+ Kc7 32. Bc5 Qf7 33. Rxa6 Nf5 34. Bb6+ Kd6 35. Qxb7 Ke7 36. Bf2 Nfd6 37. Qb1 Qg6 38. Nd4 Rb8 39. Qc1 Rh8 40. Rxh8 Rxh8 41. Ra7 Rc8 42. Qa1 Ke8 43. Nf3 Nf7 44. Kf1 Qxc2 45. Qg7 Qc1+ 46. Ne1 Ncd6 47. Bf3 Qc3 48. Qg6 Rc7 49. Rxc7 Qxc7 50. Kg2 Kf8 51. Nd3 1/2-1/2

I don't really want to play Qxc3 in these positions (at least not before White has consolidated), but what else is there? If 16 Rg1 then 16...Nh6!? and White's kingside play has stalled. The rest of the game was just a mess in which I had little idea what was going on. It would take a lot more test games before any sort of conclusions might be drawn here I think.
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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Keano
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #49 - 10/07/10 at 12:05:02
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Markovich wrote on 07/21/10 at 17:06:02:
But remember that if you want to play the Poisoned Pawn, 7...cxd4 is more precise.


Thats another thing Vitiugov said in his book which I disagree with. Its a matter of personal preference which way to go, and I prefer 7...Qc7 myself after which 8.Qxg7 is still the best move.

After 7...cxd4 8.cxd4!? (8.Qxg7 is again best) Qc7 White has a choice between 9.Ra2, 9.Kd1, 9.Bd2!? none of which are trivial. Like I said I think its personal preference, check if you prefer to play these positions or the ones after 7...Qc7 8.Bd3
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #48 - 09/28/10 at 02:13:12
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The thread started out with a question about books on the Winawer PP.

A source which was not mentioned at all is CBM 129. Knut Neven did a thorough article on the PP. It is not ment to be a reference work but it is comprehensive and introduces new ideas - very interesting.
  
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