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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C18: winawer poisoned pawn books (Read 73655 times)
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Re: C18: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #62 - 02/02/18 at 10:26:03
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Keano wrote on 02/01/18 at 19:56:44:
When Magnus plays the Winawer Poisoned Pawn the world should take note Smiley


If he plays it again, be afraid, be very afraid  Smiley
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: C18: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #61 - 02/01/18 at 19:56:44
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Indeed. check  Giri, A - Carlsen, M, Wijk aan Zee 2018, in John Watsons January update.

When Magnus plays the Winawer Poisoned Pawn the world should take note Smiley

  
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Re: C18: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #60 - 01/19/16 at 18:35:43
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Thanks Jon for sharing ...  Smiley
one more useful experience in this line
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I browsed one book quickly (Berg's book about french and PP ?? I am not sure) last december in another french chessclub...and have read that giving the d pawn as Black (d5-d4) is now the "main line" in the PP ... maybe you have a point of view about it . Usually "main" or "modern" qualifier is a way to suggest to play it.
  

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Re: C18: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #59 - 01/19/16 at 10:13:26
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Another game with 16...f6 from last night:



24 Be3? and 25 Be2?? were losing moves – of course I missed the tactic. Instead, the king should have gone to f2, when White may well be winning. Even so, the game is a nice addition to the theory.
  

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Re: C18: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #58 - 01/12/13 at 14:12:38
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bump
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #57 - 03/03/11 at 03:59:04
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Gambit wrote on 03/03/11 at 03:23:31:
I should be able to find some games with 6...c5 and 6...Bd7. Also, you may research before the game, but what if your opponent plays a different opening? Grin


Well, if the opponent doesn't play the Winckelmann-Reimer Gambit then Black is guaranteed easy equality.  Wink
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #56 - 03/03/11 at 03:23:31
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I should be able to find some games with 6...c5 and 6...Bd7. Also, you may research before the game, but what if your opponent plays a different opening? Grin
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #55 - 03/02/11 at 20:31:37
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It's no use pointing this out to LDZ. He will only endlessly repeat his mantra. It's better to ask him a question:

Gambit wrote on 03/02/11 at 17:25:23:
the Winckelmann-Reimer Gambit, 1 d4 d5 2 e4 e6 3 Nc3 Bb4 4 a3 Bxc3+ 5 bxc3 dxe4 6 f3!
looks good to me.

Have you already found good ways to meet 6...c5 and especially 6...Bd7? It was nice how you showed White's compensation after 6...b6 7.Bb5+, but this obviously doesn't work after 6...Bd7. I am looking forward to your answer in that WRG-thread.
This one is about the Winawer Poisoned Pawn, which doesn't begin with 4.a3, and especially about books on the WPP.
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #54 - 03/02/11 at 18:58:54
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Gambit wrote on 03/02/11 at 17:25:23:
Fritz this, Rybka that... Pfft... You can't use a computer to help you in an online or over-the-board game.


This is done all the time. The work with the computer was done before the game and you remember your research during play.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #53 - 03/02/11 at 17:25:23
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Fritz this, Rybka that... Pfft... You can't use a computer to help you in an online or over-the-board game. And the Winckelmann-Reimer Gambit, 1 d4 d5 2 e4 e6 3 Nc3 Bb4 4 a3 Bxc3+ 5 bxc3 dxe4 6 f3!
looks good to me. It creates interesting play.  In OTB chess, where you cannot use a computer to help, it certainly offers good chances.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #52 - 02/22/11 at 20:15:57
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Thanks Jon.
Your ideas or games are very much useful.
My stockfish chess engine likes to play Kf2 ( near 19th or 20th move)...
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #51 - 02/22/11 at 17:11:56
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Thanks for sharing so generously, Jon.  Yes, a lot more practice is needed before all this can be clarified, which could be said of the Winawer in general!
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #50 - 02/22/11 at 09:23:45
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Returning to this...

Markovich wrote on 07/16/10 at 00:08:24:
I did encounter this, however:

[Event "Cto. de Espańa Individual Absoluto"]
[Date "2009.09.28"]
[White "Vehi Bach Victor Manuel"]
[Black "Vallejo Pons Francisco"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2381"]
[BlackElo "2696"]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 Ne7 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 c5 7.Qg4 cxd4 8.Qxg7 Rg8 9.Qxh7 Qc7 10.Ne2 Nbc6 11.f4 dxc3 12.Qd3 Bd7 13.h4 Nf5 14.Rb1 d4 15.h5 O-O-O 16.Rg1 Kb8 17.g4 Nh6 18.g5 Nf5 19.Bg2 Na5 20.Rb4 Nc6 21.Rb1 b6 22.Be4 Nce7 23.Kf2 Qc5 24.Ng3 Ba4 25.Kg2 Ne3+ 26.Bxe3 dxe3 27.Qa6 Bc6 28.Kh3 Rd2 29.Rbe1 Nd5 30.Kg4 Bb5 0-1

Big difference in rating.  20.Bh3!.  But Black had better in 19...Bc8, which was played in an amateur game in my data base. This appears critical.  I notice in passing that 16...Kb8 wasn't considered by Tait in the linked material.


Actually I did struggle against this sort of idea in the recent online thematic:

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2010.??.??"]
[White "tsmenace"]
[Black "pdchessvamp"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C18"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. Qg4 Qc7 8. Qxg7 Rg8 9. Qxh7 cxd4 10. Ne2 dxc3 11. f4 Bd7 12. Qd3 Nbc6 13. Rb1 d4 14. h4 Nf5 15. h5 O-O-O 16. Rg1 Rg4 17. g3 Kb8 18. Bh3 Rgg8 19. g4 Nfe7 20. h6 b6 21. Ng3 Bc8 22. Ne4 Ng6 23. g5 Bb7 24. Nf6 Ncxe5 25. fxe5 Nxe5 26. Qg3 d3 27. Bf4 Nf3+ 28. Qxf3 e5 29. Qxb7+ Kxb7 30. Be3 dxc2 31. Rc1 Rd1+ 32. Rxd1 cxd1Q+ 33. Kxd1 Rd8+ 34. Ke2 Qc4+ 35. Kf2 Qh4+ 36. Kg2 Rd3 37. Rh1 Qc4 38. Kf2 Qa2+ 39. Kf3 Qd2 40. Ng4 c2 41. h7 Qd1+ 42. Kg3 Qxh1 43. Bg2+ Qxg2+ 44. Kxg2 Rxe3 45. h8Q Re2+ 46. Kf3 Re1 0-1

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2010.??.??"]
[White "tsmenace"]
[Black "tarby"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C18"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. Qg4 Qc7 8. Qxg7 Rg8 9. Qxh7 cxd4 10. Ne2 Nbc6 11. f4 Bd7 12. Qd3 dxc3 13. Rb1 O-O-O 14. h4 Nf5 15. h5 d4 16. Rg1 Rg4 17. g3 Kb8 18. Bh3 Rgg8 19. g4 Nh4 20. Kf2 Bc8 21. Ng3 b6 22. Ne4 Bb7 23. Nf6 Rh8 24. Kg3 Nf3 25. Rf1 Nd2 26. Bxd2 cxd2 27. Qxd2 Na5 28. Qxa5 bxa5 29. Bg2 Qb6 30. Rfd1 Bxg2 31. Kxg2 Qxb1 32. Rxb1+ Ka8 33. Rd1 Rc8 34. Rd2 Rc3 35. Rxd4 Rxc2+ 36. Kg3 Rc3+ 37. Kh4 Rxa3 38. Kg5 a4 39. Nd7 Rg8+ 40. Kf6 Rxg4 41. Nc5 Kb8 42. Kxf7 Rf3 43. Rd8+ Kc7 44. Nxe6+ Kb6 45. Kf6 Rh3 46. Rd6+ Ka5 47. Rd5+ Kb6 48. Rd6+ 1/2-1/2

The line 16...Rg4 17 g3 Kb8 18 Bh3 Rgg8 19 g4 is a bit odd. If Black is going to play this way then why not 16...Kb8 at once, since it's basically the same position minus the extra Bh3 for White.

In the first game 24 Nf6?? was a bit embarrassing, since Fritz throws up 24...Ncxe5! (and 26...d3! etc) in 0.03 seconds. 24 Rg3 was correct. In the second game 28 Qxa5!? didn't quite work out either. But I have to admit that it's not easy for White to make progress in any case.

15...Kb8!? is interesting too:

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2010.??.??"]
[White "tsmenace"]
[Black "samurai"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C18"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. Qg4 Qc7 8. Qxg7 Rg8 9. Qxh7 cxd4 10. Ne2 Nbc6 11. f4 dxc3 12. Qd3 Bd7 13. Rb1 O-O-O 14. h4 Nf5 15. h5 Kb8 16. Qxc3 Rc8 17. Bd2 Ka8 18. g3 Qd8 19. Qd3 f6 20. exf6 Qxf6 21. Bh3 Nd6 22. Bc3 Qf8 23. Bb2 Na5 24. Bd4 Nac4 25. Bg2 Nf5 26. Bf2 Nxa3 27. Rb2 Nc4 28. Ra2 a6 29. h6 Nxh6 30. Qd4 Kb8 31. Qa7+ Kc7 32. Bc5 Qf7 33. Rxa6 Nf5 34. Bb6+ Kd6 35. Qxb7 Ke7 36. Bf2 Nfd6 37. Qb1 Qg6 38. Nd4 Rb8 39. Qc1 Rh8 40. Rxh8 Rxh8 41. Ra7 Rc8 42. Qa1 Ke8 43. Nf3 Nf7 44. Kf1 Qxc2 45. Qg7 Qc1+ 46. Ne1 Ncd6 47. Bf3 Qc3 48. Qg6 Rc7 49. Rxc7 Qxc7 50. Kg2 Kf8 51. Nd3 1/2-1/2

I don't really want to play Qxc3 in these positions (at least not before White has consolidated), but what else is there? If 16 Rg1 then 16...Nh6!? and White's kingside play has stalled. The rest of the game was just a mess in which I had little idea what was going on. It would take a lot more test games before any sort of conclusions might be drawn here I think.
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #49 - 10/07/10 at 12:05:02
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Markovich wrote on 07/21/10 at 17:06:02:
But remember that if you want to play the Poisoned Pawn, 7...cxd4 is more precise.


Thats another thing Vitiugov said in his book which I disagree with. Its a matter of personal preference which way to go, and I prefer 7...Qc7 myself after which 8.Qxg7 is still the best move.

After 7...cxd4 8.cxd4!? (8.Qxg7 is again best) Qc7 White has a choice between 9.Ra2, 9.Kd1, 9.Bd2!? none of which are trivial. Like I said I think its personal preference, check if you prefer to play these positions or the ones after 7...Qc7 8.Bd3
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #48 - 09/28/10 at 02:13:12
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The thread started out with a question about books on the Winawer PP.

A source which was not mentioned at all is CBM 129. Knut Neven did a thorough article on the PP. It is not ment to be a reference work but it is comprehensive and introduces new ideas - very interesting.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #47 - 08/26/10 at 16:03:28
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I should correct myself:  7...cxd4 8.Bd3 leads to a game that is fine for Black, but not necessarily to an endgame.
« Last Edit: 08/27/10 at 13:59:59 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #46 - 08/24/10 at 13:35:05
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gewgaw wrote on 08/23/10 at 18:30:48:
"But remember that if you want to play the Poisoned Pawn, 7...cxd4 is more precise."

1.why?
2. Kasimdschanov recommended in beating the french 1 after 12. ...Bd7 13. Nc3 with the idea 14.h4 and Rh3 to protect the Nc3 "and practise has shown, that white has better prospects"  In his opinion 7.Qg4 0-0 is better, but he cant give any improvements for black in the game Karjakin - yussupov Cheesy Tongue
---> the french seems busted  Roll Eyes


The first has just been answered by ReneDescartes.  As to the second, is your opinion informed by any acquaintance with Vitiugov or with Watson's updates?  According to Watson, the stock of the Poisoned Pawn is pretty high right now.

One thing I observe is that Shulman keeps  playing it.
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #45 - 08/23/10 at 21:03:40
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(1) I think Markovich was reminding me that if you  want to induce White to enter the classic Poison Pawn tabiya then current theory says you should not allow White the option of  7...Qc7 8.Bd3.  7...cxd4 8.Bd3 is thought to lead to a favorable endgame for Black.

(2) Well, no surprise there: you should have known that the French was busted as soon as you saw that there exist books with the title "Beating the French." Or read the first third of this thread.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #44 - 08/23/10 at 18:30:48
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But remember that if you want to play the Poisoned Pawn, 7...cxd4 is more precise. [/quote]

1.why?
2. Kasimdschanov recommended in beating the french 1 after 12. ...Bd7 13. Nc3 with the idea 14.h4 and Rh3 to protect the Nc3 "and practise has shown, that white has better prospects"  In his opinion 7.Qg4 0-0 is better, but he cant give any improvements for black in the game Karjakin - yussupov Cheesy Tongue
---> the french seems busted  Roll Eyes
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #43 - 07/22/10 at 19:48:22
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@Tolotos:

Thanks very much for those ideas, which I'll take a serious look at.  I've fiddled with the pieces some along your lines, and Black does indeed seem to have some play, though I think White's game in general should be easier.

Papageno wrote on 07/21/10 at 21:48:21:
Markovich wrote on 07/20/10 at 19:43:09:
(...) the older 16...f6 17.g4 Nh4 18.exf6 e5 19.f7 Rg7 and claims that Black has great compensation.  Who am I to disagree with an IM, but I can't see it after 20.f5 Rxf7 21.Rg3 e4 22.Qb3 Ne5 23.Bf4 Re7(...)

A recent corr game finished this way instead:
22... e3 23. Qxf7 Ne5 24. Qd5 Bc6 25. Qe6+ Bd7 26. Qd5 Bc6 27. Qe6+ Bd7 28. Qd5 Bc6 29. Qe6+ 1/2-1/2 Jirku,J (2332)-Volek,S (2308)/ICCF 2009
Nice improvement, I think.


Brilliant.  Thanks for that!
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #42 - 07/22/10 at 11:11:19
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Markovich wrote on 07/20/10 at 19:43:09:
I am really pissed off at Vitiugov now, noticing not only that he fails to treat the Tait Variation, but also that, after
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 Qc7 8.Qxg7 Rg8 9.Qxh7 cxd4 10.Ne2 Nbc6 11.f4 dxc3 12.Qd3 Bd7 13.Qxc3 Nf5 14.Rb1 O-O-O 15.Rg1 d4 16.Qd3 Na5  17.g4 Ba4 he gives only 18.c3 and blithely ignores 18.gxf5, for example 18...Bxc2 19.Qb5 Rxg1 20.Nxg1 was Smirnov-Arslanov, 2009.  Arslanov chose 20...a6 21. Qb6 Bxb1 22. Qxb1 Nb3 23. Kd1 Qc3 and lost; Goh Wei Ming (update May 2009) suggests 23...Nc5 but I still think White's game is easier.  Maybe I'm wrong because Black has drawn a couple of games, including Colastri-Cornette, Cap d'Agde 2008, which oddly enough isn't cited by Goh Wei Ming.


1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 Qc7 8.Qxg7 Rg8 9.Qxh7 cxd4 10.Ne2 Nbc6 11.f4 dxc3 12.Qd3 Bd7 13.Qxc3 Nf5 14.Rb1 O-O-O 15.Rg1 d4 16.Qd3 Na5  17.g4 Ba4 18.gxf5 Bxc2 19.Qb5 Rxg1 20.Nxg1 a6 21.Qb6 Bxb1 22.Qxb1 Nb3 23.Kd1 Nc5
My first impression was also that white is better here (R vs B+N ;h pawn) but the black pieces are well placed and coordinated,specially the knight on c5!

A) 24.Bd2 Kb8 (24...Dc6 25.fxe6 fxe6 26.Qc2 b6     27.Bxa6  Kb8 28.Bf1 Rg8 29.Nh3 Rg2!) 25.fxe6 fxe6 26.Ke1 Qc6 27.Qb4 (27.Qc2 Farkas-Weber ICCF 2009 1/2) Qh1 28.Qxc5 Qxg1 29.Qb6 Rh8=

B)24.Qc2 Qc6 25.fxe6 (25.Bg2 Calistri-Cornette 2008 1/2) fxe6 26.f5 Tg8 27.Nh3 d3 28.Qc4 Th8=

C)24.fxe6 fxe6 25.Nh3 Qc6 26.Bd2 Qf3+ 27.Ke1 Qxa3 28.Qb4 Qa1+ 29.Ke2 d3+ 30.Kf2 b6 31.Qxb6 Ne4+ 32.Kg2 Nxd2 33.Qc5+ Kb7 34.Qb4+ Kc8 35.Qxd2 Qb1=
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #41 - 07/21/10 at 21:48:21
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Markovich wrote on 07/20/10 at 19:43:09:
(...) the older 16...f6 17.g4 Nh4 18.exf6 e5 19.f7 Rg7 and claims that Black has great compensation.  Who am I to disagree with an IM, but I can't see it after 20.f5 Rxf7 21.Rg3 e4 22.Qb3 Ne5 23.Bf4 Re7(...)

A recent corr game finished this way instead:
22... e3 23. Qxf7 Ne5 24. Qd5 Bc6 25. Qe6+ Bd7 26. Qd5 Bc6 27. Qe6+ Bd7 28. Qd5 Bc6 29. Qe6+ 1/2-1/2 Jirku,J (2332)-Volek,S (2308)/ICCF 2009
Nice improvement, I think.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #40 - 07/21/10 at 17:06:02
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ReneDescartes wrote on 07/20/10 at 22:10:27:
Re: 16..f6: sorry, I didn't connect the dots. In the Harding game, maybe White can improve with 20.Kd1, preventing ...Qh4 (for the moment), but it does look like Black gets good compensation for the piece, with a huge flotilla of central pawns. Well, that's good news as far as I'm concerned.

In fact, the upshot of the latter part of this thread overall (no bust) is good news for me, since 7...Qc7 is in my repertoire and a real bust to it would be distressing, to say the least.


But remember that if you want to play the Poisoned Pawn, 7...cxd4 is more precise.
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #39 - 07/21/10 at 07:36:44
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Markovich wrote on 07/20/10 at 19:43:09:
I am really pissed off at Vitiugov now, noticing not only that he fails to treat the Tait Variation, but also that, after
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 Qc7 8.Qxg7 Rg8 9.Qxh7 cxd4 10.Ne2 Nbc6 11.f4 dxc3 12.Qd3 Bd7 13.Qxc3 Nf5 14.Rb1 O-O-O 15.Rg1 d4 16.Qd3 Na5  17.g4 Ba4 he gives only 18.c3 and blithely ignores 18.gxf5, for example 18...Bxc2 19.Qb5 Rxg1 20.Nxg1 was Smirnov-Arslanov, 2009.  Arslanov chose 20...a6 21. Qb6 Bxb1 22. Qxb1 Nb3 23. Kd1 Qc3 and lost; Goh Wei Ming (update May 2009) suggests 23...Nc5 but I still think White's game is easier.  Maybe I'm wrong because Black has drawn a couple of games, including Colastri-Cornette, Cap d'Agde 2008, which oddly enough isn't cited by Goh Wei Ming.

Goh Wei Ming also mentions 20... Bxf5 21.Bd2 Bxb1 22.Qxa5 b6 23.Qb4 Be4, and Black did draw two cc games after 20.Nh3, but to me it looks difficult for Black. 

Goh Wei Ming further mentions the older 16...f6 17.g4 Nh4 18.exf6 e5 19.f7 Rg7 and claims that Black has great compensation.  Who am I to disagree with an IM, but I can't see it after 20.f5 Rxf7 21.Rg3 e4 22.Qb3 Ne5 23.Bf4 Re7 as played in a CC game and now (instead of 24.f7) 24.Nxd4 Nhf3+ 25.Rxf3 exf3 26.Kf2 and White is much better, I opine.

Anyway I think that anyone who expects to be able to use Vitiugov as a basic resource for Black in the Winawer should think again, in view of his omission of at least two quite critical lines.


He fails to mention a lot of stuff does good ol' Vitiugov - a nice chap with a high rating no doubt but as I said before this book is not really what French players were looking for: 5/10.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #38 - 07/20/10 at 22:10:27
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Re: 16..f6: sorry, I didn't connect the dots. In the Harding game, maybe White can improve with 20.Kd1, preventing ...Qh4 (for the moment), but it does look like Black gets good compensation for the piece, with a huge flotilla of central pawns. Well, that's good news as far as I'm concerned.

In fact, the upshot of the latter part of this thread overall (no bust) is good news for me, since 7...Qc7 is in my repertoire and a real bust to it would be distressing, to say the least.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #37 - 07/20/10 at 19:43:09
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I am really pissed off at Vitiugov now, noticing not only that he fails to treat the Tait Variation, but also that, after
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 Qc7 8.Qxg7 Rg8 9.Qxh7 cxd4 10.Ne2 Nbc6 11.f4 dxc3 12.Qd3 Bd7 13.Qxc3 Nf5 14.Rb1 O-O-O 15.Rg1 d4 16.Qd3 Na5  17.g4 Ba4 he gives only 18.c3 and blithely ignores 18.gxf5, for example 18...Bxc2 19.Qb5 Rxg1 20.Nxg1 was Smirnov-Arslanov, 2009.  Arslanov chose 20...a6 21. Qb6 Bxb1 22. Qxb1 Nb3 23. Kd1 Qc3 and lost; Goh Wei Ming (update May 2009) suggests 23...Nc5 but I still think White's game is easier.  Maybe I'm wrong because Black has drawn a couple of games, including Colastri-Cornette, Cap d'Agde 2008, which oddly enough isn't cited by Goh Wei Ming.

Goh Wei Ming also mentions 20... Bxf5 21.Bd2 Bxb1 22.Qxa5 b6 23.Qb4 Be4, and Black did draw two cc games after 20.Nh3, but to me it looks difficult for Black. 

Goh Wei Ming further mentions the older 16...f6 17.g4 Nh4 18.exf6 e5 19.f7 Rg7 and claims that Black has great compensation.  Who am I to disagree with an IM, but I can't see it after 20.f5 Rxf7 21.Rg3 e4 22.Qb3 Ne5 23.Bf4 Re7 as played in a CC game and now (instead of 24.f7) 24.Nxd4 Nhf3+ 25.Rxf3 exf3 26.Kf2 and White is much better, I opine.

Anyway I think that anyone who expects to be able to use Vitiugov as a basic resource for Black in the Winawer should think again, in view of his omission of at least two quite critical lines.
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #36 - 07/20/10 at 19:26:36
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ReneDescartes wrote on 07/20/10 at 18:56:04:
Well, Mr. Tait is to be commended for posting his analysis, but not for his bluster (the "corollary") at the beginning of this thread. The reaction when you and others called his bluff sets my mind at ease about any hidden busts.

Unfortunately 16 ...f6 has scored an abysmal 18% from 11 games in my database.  The problem seems to be

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 Qc7 8.Qxg7 Rg8 9.Qxh7 cxd4 10.Ne2 Nbc6 11.f4 dxc3 12.Qd3 d4 13.Rb1 Bd7 14.h4 Nf5 15.h5 0-0-0 16.Rg1 f6 17.g4 Nh6 18.exf6 Rxg4 19.Rxg4 Nxg4 and now 20.f7 and 20.Qg6 with the idea of f7 have scored well for White. If White has the nerve to do it, he could make things even sharper with 20.Nxd5 and it doesn't look that easy to me for Black to exploit the opening of the center with a7 hanging.


I don't think we need to belabor the whole politeness thing, since Tait evidently took some unintended offense to the way I expressed myself.  Apparently he doesn't want to share his private conclusions, which I respect.

In the line you quote Black has 17...fxe5 18.gxf5 exf5 with quite a bit of play, as shown in a Harding game quoted above by Tait.
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #35 - 07/20/10 at 18:56:04
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Well, Mr. Tait is to be commended for posting his analysis, but not for his bluster (the "corollary") at the beginning of this thread. The reaction when you and others called his bluff sets my mind at ease about any hidden busts.

Unfortunately 16 ...f6 has scored an abysmal 18% from 11 games in my database.  The problem seems to be

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 Qc7 8.Qxg7 Rg8 9.Qxh7 cxd4 10.Ne2 Nbc6 11.f4 dxc3 12.Qd3 d4 13.Rb1 Bd7 14.h4 Nf5 15.h5 0-0-0 16.Rg1 f6 17.g4 Nh6 18.exf6 Rxg4 19.Rxg4 Nxg4 and now 20.f7 and 20.Qg6 with the idea of f7 have scored well for White. Though I don't see that it has been played, if White has the nerve to do it he could make things even sharper with 20.Nxd5 Nxd5 21.Qxd5 and with a7 hanging it doesn't look that easy to me for Black to exploit the opening of the center.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #34 - 07/20/10 at 17:23:38
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Fascinating, thanks!  After 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 Qc7 8.Qxg7 Rg8 9.Qxh7 cxd4 10.Ne2 Nbc6 11.f4 dxc3 12.Qd3 d4 13.Rb1 Bd7 14.h4 Nf5 15.h5 0-0-0 16.Rg1 Be8 17.g4 Qe7!? 18.g5 Qc7!? 19.Bg2 f6, White also has 20.g6 fxe5 21.Be4 (or perhaps some other move) with a chaotic situation.  I'm not sure, but I think I might rather be White then, whose pawns look so formidable.

In the mean time I can't see why 16...f6 isn't satisfactory for Black, handicapped as I am by not having access to reams of private analysis.   These perhaps are settled questions, but I'll be hanged if I know where to go to find the answers.
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #33 - 07/20/10 at 17:05:38
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up to now the following move hasn´t been mentioned

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 Qc7 8.Qxg7 Rg8 9.Qxh7 cxd4 10.Ne2 Nbc6 11.f4 dxc3 12.Qd3 d4 13.Rb1 Bd7 14.h4 Nf5 15.h5 0-0-0 16.Rg1 Be8 17.g4 Qe7!?

In my database I found two games with Qe7

Matei(2585)-Dorner(2377) ICCF 2008:
18.g5 Qc5 19.Rb5 Qf8 20.Bh3 a6 21 Rb1 Qc5 22.Bxf5 exf5 23.Qxf5 Bd7 24.Qe4 Be6 25.h6 Bd5 26.Qf5 Be6 27.Qe4 Ba2 1/2

Necula (2341)-Dorner (2372) ICCF 2009:
18.g5 Qc5 19.Bg2 a6 20.Kf2 Rh8 21.h6 Na5 22.Be4 Bb5 23.Rxb5 axb5 24.Bxf5 exf5 25.Qxf5 Kb8 26.Qd3 Nc4 27.Ng3 Qc6 28.Ne4 Qe6 29.Rf1 Nb2 30.Qf3 Nc4 31.f4 Qc8 32.Nd6 Qd7 33.Nxc4 bxc4 34.g6 fxg6 35.e6 Qe7 36.fxg6 Ka7 37.Qh5 Qxe6 38.Qa5+  Qa6
39.Qxa6+ Kxa6 40.g7 Rh7 41.Rd1 1-0

First I wondered what happened after 18.gxf5:
18.gxf5 Rxg1 19.Nxg1 Qh4+ 20.Kd1 f6! =

So 18.g5 is best;I think black has a good alternative  to 18...Qc5: 18...Qc7!? 19.Bg2 f6!?

A) 20.gxf6 Bxh5 21.Qc4 Bxe2 22.Kxe2(22.Dxe6 Kb8 23.f7 Rxg2 24.Rxg2 d3 25.Qxf5 d2 26.Bxd2 cxd2+ 27.Kf2 Ne7) d3+ 23.cxd3 Rxg2 24.Rxg2 Qh7=

B) 20.Bxc6 Bxc6! 21.exf6 Qf7 22.h6 (22.Qc4 Rge8 23.Rh1 Nd6=;22.Qh3 Rd7 23.h6 Rgd8 24.g6 Qxf6 25.g7 Nxg7=) Qh5 23.Rb4 Qh4+ 24.Kd1 Qf2=

C) 20.exf6 Bxh5

C1) 21.Rh1 Bg6 22.Be4 Th8 23.Rxh8 Rxh8 24.Qc4 (24.Kf1 Qh7 25.Qc4 Ne3+;24.Rb5 Qh7 25.Qc4 Kd8) Qd7 25.Kf2 Ne3+ 26.Bxc6 ( 26.Bxe3 Bxe4 27.Bxd4 e5) Rh2+ 27.Kg1 Rh1 28.Bxh1 Nxc4 29.Rxb7
(29.Bxb7 Kd8 30.Bf3 Qd6 31.Rb4 Nd2;29.f5 d3 30.Bxb7 Kd8 21.cxd3 Qxd3;29.f5 d3 30.cxd3 Qxd3 31.fxg6 Nd2)Qa4 30.Rb4 Qxc2 31.Rxc4 Kb8 32.Rb4+ (32.Bf3 d3 33.Rb4+ Kc7) Kc7=

C2) 21.Be4 Bg6 22.a4 (22.Ng3 Qd7 23.Kf2 Rh8 24.Nxf5 exf5 25.Bg2 Rde8 26.Kg3 Qh7 27.Rh1 Qxh1 28.Bxh1 Rxh1 29.Qb5 Reh8 30.Qxb7 Kd8 31.Qxc6 R8h3+ 32.Kf2 R3h2+ 33.Qg2 Bf7=) Rh8 23.Qc4 Rd6 24.Ba3 Rd5 25.Bxd5 exd5 26.Qxd5 Qh7 27.Qb3 Nd8 28.Be7 Ne3 29.Bxd8 Qh4 30.Rg3 Qh1 31.Ng1 Rh2=

C3) 21.Qc4 Nd6 22.Qa4 Nf5 23.Be4 (23.Bxc6 Qxc6 24.Qxc6 bxc6 25.a4 Bg6 ) Bxe2 24.Kxe2 d3+ 25.Bxd3 Ncd4+ 26.Kf1 Qh7 27.Qc4+ Kb8 28.Be4 Ng3+ 29.Rxg3 Qxe4=

18...Qc7!? 19.Bh3 Nce7 ( Niessen-Smithers IECG 1997 1/2 )

18... Qc7!? 19.Qc4 a6 20.Bg2 (20.a4 a5) b5 21.Qc5 Na5 22.Qxc7 Kxc7 unclear
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #32 - 07/17/10 at 19:06:08
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 07/17/10 at 15:05:06:
.

Friendly and constructive? Okay, so maybe it wasn't, but your own posts hardly prompt friendly replies. The whole "Killer Line" post was needlessly sarcastic. And here you are at it again.


I'm completely mystified by this.  I can't see what in my post would fail to engender a normal chess-related, let us leave aside friendly, reply. Sarcastic about what?  I'm just trying to talk chess, with particular emphasis on understanding the value of the "Tait Variation" and the viability of the Poisoned Pawn.

I want to talk about the theory of this variation.  It's interesting that you have purported answers to my questions in your notes, and I would be most happy to know what they are.  Does this line challenge the Poisoned Pawn?  Is the Poisoned Pawn being upheld at high levels?  These questions interest me, and since they were raised by you, I would have hoped to be able to have a discussion on these subjects. 

If you don't like me, fine, but maybe we could actually talk some chess?  If you want to keep your private analyses under wraps, just say so; I could well understand that.
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #31 - 07/17/10 at 18:08:09
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Fllg wrote on 07/15/10 at 18:12:46:
Paddy wrote on 07/06/10 at 23:45:58:
I assume Bibs was referring to the line 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Qc7 7. Qg4 f5 8. Qg3 cxd4 9. cxd4 Ne7 and now instead of the old 10.Bd2 etc White plays 10. Ne2 O-O 11. c3, e.g. 11...b6 12. Nf4 Qd7 13. a4 Ba6 14. Bb5! and Black's game is difficult. He probably has to change plan and play 11...Nc6, or Moskalenko's 8...Nc6. The Qc7 line has not been seen much in recent years, probably owing to this line and to the fact that even the old main lines of the Qc7 system are not exactly a bed of roses for Black.

If you are a subscriber to the French section of Chess Publishing, the quoted line, analysed by Neil McDonald, should be available to you in the archives.

If you have improvements, please post them here, since I am sure that there are many Winawer fans who would like to see the Qc7 line become a viable option once more!


I have already stated elsewhere in this forum that I had this in a game with White in 2005 which continued after 14.Bb5 Nec6 15.h4 Bxb5 16.axb5 Na5 17.h5 and now instead of 17... Nb3? analysed by Khalifman my opponent played the far superior 17... Qf7! and White seems to have no advantage. This has also been played by german GM Arik Braun vs. Zude in 2009 where Black won. I haven´t found anything really promising for White so as far as I can say Black is in good shape after 6... Qc7.


Thank you for this. I had actually noticed Zude-Braun, but since I (and my engines) still preferred White after 17...Qf7 I paid it little attention. I agree that it is a useful improvement from the black point of view - so many thanks!  Smiley

However, it does not seem to change the fundamentals of the position, with White having the safer king, more space, dark-square weaknesses to exploit, a weak black pawn at e6 and a potentially game-winning unopposed bishop. So White still looks better to me, and I  suggest that he also has more more ideas to work with; I think White should castle quickly to connect the rooks, rather than mess around with Rh3 ideas; it is probably better to postpone h5-h6 and keep it hanging over Black's head; White's queen can be a nuisance on g5; White's rooks can double on the a-file in some lines; the Ba3 may go to b4, to guard c3 and allow the rooks to press on the a-file, or to d6; if the bishop is threatened on d6, White is often just able to leave it there, since ...Nxd6 exd6 opens up new possibilities for White's pieces.

Black's possible a7-a6 break is double edged, but otherwise there seems little possibility of activity, since it is quite easy for White to stem any pressure on the c-file.

These are the impressions of an experienced 2140 player after investigating the position after 17...Qf7 with the help of various strong engines for a couple of hours; much as I would like the Qc7 line to be restored to full health, I have to say that even after this valuable improvement I would still rather be White.

I also note that so far in 2010 there has not exactly been a rush of GMs trying to repeat Braun's success - which is not firm evidence, of course, but is perhaps worth bearing in mind.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #30 - 07/17/10 at 15:05:06
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Markovich wrote on 07/17/10 at 13:26:15:
I was using "Killer Line" to refer to the "Tait Variation."  I apologize for the unintended confusion resulting from the hyperbole, but am I mistaken that you do indeed uphold this line as killing the Poisoned Pawn?   You seem to.


Not really. I called my article "A Bust to the 7...Qc7 Winawer" in a nod towards Fischer's King's Gambit piece, and because my record with 16 Rg1 was so enormous that it equated to a bust in practical terms for me, if not necessarily a theoretical bust (busts are never so straightforward in such complicated positions; also, the analysis in that article was done without computer assistance, so there's quite a few mistakes in it). All the same, I'm naturally going to try to defend it from the White side if possible.

Markovich wrote on 07/17/10 at 13:26:15:
Should I be familiar with analysis that you and unnamed others worked out ten years ago?  In what readily available source am I expected to discover this?  But it hardly seems constructive, or friendly even, to say "Yes, yes, I have already looked at all that long ago," rather than simply to share the relevant chess ideas.  What are we discussing here if not the specifics of some chess positions?


Friendly and constructive? Okay, so maybe it wasn't, but your own posts hardly prompt friendly replies. The whole "Killer Line" post was needlessly sarcastic. And here you are at it again.

As for 24...Rxg5 (etc) in Simmelink-Oomen. No, there's no way you could be familiar with analysis we ("we" being me and various chessfriends) did ten years or so ago. Then again, what else could you expect? Obviously we analysed this since Fritz throws it out in a few seconds, doesn't it. But before sharing anything beyond the cursory reference to other 24th moves (and 22...Qxc3), as I said, I'd need to go back and look at it all again.
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #29 - 07/17/10 at 13:26:15
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I was using "Killer Line" to refer to the "Tait Variation."  I apologize for the unintended confusion resulting from the hyperbole, but am I mistaken that you do indeed uphold this line as killing the Poisoned Pawn?   You seem to.

Should I be familiar with analysis that you and unnamed others worked out ten years ago?  In what readily available source am I expected to discover this?  But it hardly seems constructive, or friendly even, to say "Yes, yes, I have already looked at all that long ago," rather than simply to share the relevant chess ideas.  What are we discussing here if not the specifics of some chess positions?
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #28 - 07/17/10 at 07:48:53
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Markovich wrote on 07/16/10 at 18:58:57:
Well I am experiencing cognitive dissonance at this point, since Watson has been saying that the Winawer Poison Pawn has been showing up more frequently these days at high levels.  I have sixteen 2009 games in my data base where the position after 12...dxc3 showed up and both players were 2400+ (that compares to seventeen analogous occurrences of the Winawer with 6...Qa5, eighteen of the Classical after 6...Qxe7 and twenty of the MacCutcheon after 5...h6). Poison Pawn Blacks included Grishuk, Ivanchuk, Shulman, Stellwagen and Vitiugov.  Further strangely, the Killer Line shows up in none of these sixteen games.

So either all these 2400+ Whites are ignorant of the Killer Line, or they know something we don't know.  Which it is, I have no idea.

Maybe if Watson sees this discussion he'll take up the Killer Line in an update.  That sure would be nice.


"Killer Line"? Which line are you talking about? Huh

Markovich wrote on 07/16/10 at 18:58:57:
@JT:  It seems to me that 20...d3, as played in Simmelink-Oomen, Corr 1998(!) is better than 20...Bf5 as played by Botterill against you.  The cited game continued 21.Nxc3 Nd4 22.cxd3 Nf3+ 23.Kf2 Nxg1 24.Be3, when Black missed 24...Rxg5!! after which he would have been fine.  24.Be3 may not be best, and White also has alternatives to 21.Nxc3, but in brief investigations, haven't been able to find anything convincing for White.


Yes, we looked at all that 10 years or so ago (including 24...Rxg5). I can't remember what the conclusion was now, I'd have to go back and look at it again. But yes, there are other moves than 24 Be3. And for Black 22...Qxc3 is interesting as well.
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #27 - 07/16/10 at 23:54:41
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #26 - 07/16/10 at 22:27:02
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Fllg wrote on 07/15/10 at 18:12:46:
Paddy wrote on 07/06/10 at 23:45:58:
I assume Bibs was referring to the line 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Qc7 7. Qg4 f5 8. Qg3 cxd4 9. cxd4 Ne7 and now instead of the old 10.Bd2 etc White plays 10. Ne2 O-O 11. c3, e.g. 11...b6 12. Nf4 Qd7 13. a4 Ba6 14. Bb5! and Black's game is difficult. He probably has to change plan and play 11...Nc6, or Moskalenko's 8...Nc6. The Qc7 line has not been seen much in recent years, probably owing to this line and to the fact that even the old main lines of the Qc7 system are not exactly a bed of roses for Black.

If you are a subscriber to the French section of Chess Publishing, the quoted line, analysed by Neil McDonald, should be available to you in the archives.

If you have improvements, please post them here, since I am sure that there are many Winawer fans who would like to see the Qc7 line become a viable option once more!


I have already stated elsewhere in this forum that I had this in a game with White in 2005 which continued after 14.Bb5 Nec6 15.h4 Bxb5 16.axb5 Na5 17.h5 and now instead of 17... Nb3? analysed by Khalifman my opponent played the far superior 17... Qf7! and White seems to have no advantage. This has also been played by german GM Arik Braun vs. Zude in 2009 where Black won. I haven´t found anything really promising for White so as far as I can say Black is in good shape after 6... Qc7.


That 17...Qf7 looks good. The game basically equalizes in a full-board blockade where neither side can do anything.
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #25 - 07/16/10 at 18:58:57
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Well I am experiencing cognitive dissonance at this point, since Watson has been saying that the Winawer Poison Pawn has been showing up more frequently these days at high levels.  I have sixteen 2009 games in my data base where the position after 12...dxc3 showed up and both players were 2400+ (that compares to seventeen analogous occurrences of the Winawer with 6...Qa5, eighteen of the Classical after 6...Qxe7 and twenty of the MacCutcheon after 5...h6). Poison Pawn Blacks included Grishuk, Ivanchuk, Shulman, Stellwagen and Vitiugov.  Further strangely, the Killer Line shows up in none of these sixteen games. 

So either all these 2400+ Whites are ignorant of the Killer Line, or they know something we don't know.  Which it is, I have no idea.

Maybe if Watson sees this discussion he'll take up the Killer Line in an update.  That sure would be nice.

@JT:  It seems to me that 20...d3, as played in Simmelink-Oomen, Corr 1998(!) is better than 20...Bf5 as played by Botterill against you.  The cited game continued 21.Nxc3 Nd4 22.cxd3 Nf3+ 23.Kf2 Nxg1 24.Be3, when Black missed 24...Rxg5!! after which he would have been fine.  24.Be3 may not be best, and White also has alternatives to 21.Nxc3, but in brief investigations, haven't been able to find anything convincing for White.
« Last Edit: 07/16/10 at 20:53:46 by Markovich »  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #24 - 07/16/10 at 10:39:50
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Papageno wrote on 07/15/10 at 16:01:32:
@Jonathan Tait
Thanks for this upload. The article is very interesting as I was not aware of this white setup at all. (Maybe not entirely my fault as this line was not yet invented and played when I studied the theory of this line with Uhlmann's book etc.) So it was a good overview for me now.

Checking some recent corr games against this, I found one with an idea not mentioned in your paper. The black player had lost a game with 18... Rxg1 in 2007, so he came up here with what seems to me to be a better try.

[Event "WCCC33PR03"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2009.04.10"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Shishkov, Pavel Aleksandrovic"]
[Black "Willigen, Jan Willem van"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C18"]
[WhiteElo "2291"]
[BlackElo "2378"]
[EventDate "2009.??.??"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. Qg4 Qc7 8. Qxg7 Rg8 9. Qxh7 cxd4 10. Ne2 Nbc6 11. f4 Bd7 12. Qd3 dxc3 13. Rb1 O-O-O 14. h4 Nf5 15. h5 d4 16. Rg1 f6 17. g4 fxe5 18. gxf5 exf5 19. Rxg8 Rxg8 20. Qc4 Qd8 21. Kd1 Rg4 22. Qd5 e4 23. Nxd4 Rg1 24. Nxc6 Rxf1+ 1/2-1/2

Enjoy.


Thanks Smiley

This line dates back to the following game:

[Event "corr chW22-sf5"]
[Date "1999.??.??"]
[White "Harding, Tim"]
[Black "Arounopoulos, S."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C18"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. Qg4 Qc7 8. Qxg7 Rg8 9. Qxh7 cxd4 10. Ne2 Nbc6 11. f4 dxc3 12. Qd3 Bd7 13. Rb1 d4 14. h4 Nf5 15. h5 O-O-O 16. Rg1 f6 17. g4 fxe5 18. gxf5 exf5 19. Rxg8 Rxg8 20. Qc4 Qd8 21. fxe5 Qh4+ 22. Kd1 Rg4 23. e6 Be8 24. Qb5 Qf2 25. Qxb7+ Kd8 26. e7+ Nxe7 27. Qa8+ Kd7 28. Qxa7+ Ke6 29. Qa6+ Kf7 30. Bh3 Qf3 31. Qc4+ Kg7 32. Bd2 Qxh3 33. Bxc3 dxc3 34. Qxc3+ Qxc3 35. Nxc3 Rg1+ 0-1

19 Rg5 is perhaps a better try, though that's not clear either. So In a later game I reverted to 17 exf6!?.

[Event "BPCTC"]
[Date "2006.??.??"]
[White "Tait, JA."]
[Black "Botterill, George"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C18"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. Qg4 Qc7 8. Qxg7 Rg8 9. Qxh7 cxd4 10. Ne2 Nbc6 11. f4 Bd7 12. Qd3 dxc3 13. Rb1 O-O-O 14. h4 Nf5 15. h5 d4 16. Rg1 f6 17. exf6 e5 18. g4 Nd6 19. g5 e4 20. Qd1 Bf5 21. Nxd4 Ne8 22. Be3 Nxd4 23. Bxd4 Qxf4 24. Qc1 e3 25. Bxe3 Qh4+ 26. Bf2 Qe4+ 27. Qe3 Nxf6 28. Qxe4 Nxe4 29. Be3 Nd2 30. Rb5 Bxc2 31. Rc5+ Kb8 32. Bf4+ Ka8 33. Rxc3 Rge8+ 34. Be2 Bd1 35. Kxd1 Nf3+ 36. Rd3 Nxg1 37. g6 Nh3 38. Rxd8+ Rxd8+ 39. Bd2 Nf2+ 40. Ke1 Ne4 41. h6 Nxd2 42. g7 1-0

I think that's the last time I had this line. No one seems to play the Winawer much OTB any more. It's all 3...Nf6 nowadays.
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #23 - 07/16/10 at 10:29:52
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Markovich wrote on 07/16/10 at 00:08:24:
But Black had better in 19...Bc8, which was played in an amateur game in my database. This appears critical.


I have two games with that move. White won both; e.g.

[Event "corr BCCS vs BCCA"]
[Date "1997.??.??"]
[White "Hassell, G."]
[Black "Stewart, AM."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C18"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Qc7 7. Qg4 Ne7 8. Qxg7 Rg8 9. Qxh7 cxd4 10. Ne2 Nbc6 11. f4 Bd7 12. Qd3 dxc3 13. h4 Nf5 14. Rb1 d4 15. Rg1 O-O-O 16. h5 Kb8 17. g4 Nh6 18. g5 Nf5 19. Bg2 Bc8 20. Be4 Ka8 21. h6 Rh8 22. a4 Nfe7 23. Ba3 Nd5 24. Qb5 Ne3 25. Rg3 Nf5 26. Rf3 Rhe8 27. a5 a6 28. Qc4 Ne3 29. Rxe3 dxe3 30. Bc5 Rd5 31. Bxe3 Rb5 32. Rxb5 axb5 33. Qxb5 Bd7 34. a6 Rh8 35. Bb6 1-0
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #22 - 07/16/10 at 00:08:24
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Papageno wrote on 07/15/10 at 20:01:15:
@Markovich
Given the Vitiugov move order 13. Rb1 d4, what does he play next after 14. h4!? Because 14... Nf5 15. h5 O-O-O 16. Rg1 brings us back to the Tait line, mentioned in the text there too as a possible move order.


Interesting, thanks.  Vitiugov ignores that possibility.  I searched for some sort of transposition in other sections, but I couldn't find his consideration of this anywhere.  Not very impressive.

I did encounter this, however:

[Event "Cto. de Espańa Individual Absoluto"]
[Date "2009.09.28"]
[White "Vehi Bach Victor Manuel"]
[Black "Vallejo Pons Francisco"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2381"]
[BlackElo "2696"]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 Ne7 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 c5 7.Qg4 cxd4 8.Qxg7 Rg8 9.Qxh7 Qc7 10.Ne2 Nbc6 11.f4 dxc3 12.Qd3 Bd7 13.h4 Nf5 14.Rb1 d4 15.h5 O-O-O 16.Rg1 Kb8 17.g4 Nh6 18.g5 Nf5 19.Bg2 Na5 20.Rb4 Nc6 21.Rb1 b6 22.Be4 Nce7 23.Kf2 Qc5 24.Ng3 Ba4 25.Kg2 Ne3+ 26.Bxe3 dxe3 27.Qa6 Bc6 28.Kh3 Rd2 29.Rbe1 Nd5 30.Kg4 Bb5 0-1

Big difference in rating.  20.Bh3!.  But Black had better in 19...Bc8, which was played in an amateur game in my data base.   This appears critical.  I notice in passing that 16...Kb8 wasn't considered by Tait in the linked material.
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #21 - 07/15/10 at 20:01:15
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@Markovich
Given the Vitiugov move order 13. Rb1 d4, what does he play next after 14. h4!? Because 14... Nf5 15. h5 O-O-O 16. Rg1 brings us back to the Tait line, mentioned in the text there too as a possible move order.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #20 - 07/15/10 at 18:12:46
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Paddy wrote on 07/06/10 at 23:45:58:
I assume Bibs was referring to the line 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Qc7 7. Qg4 f5 8. Qg3 cxd4 9. cxd4 Ne7 and now instead of the old 10.Bd2 etc White plays 10. Ne2 O-O 11. c3, e.g. 11...b6 12. Nf4 Qd7 13. a4 Ba6 14. Bb5! and Black's game is difficult. He probably has to change plan and play 11...Nc6, or Moskalenko's 8...Nc6. The Qc7 line has not been seen much in recent years, probably owing to this line and to the fact that even the old main lines of the Qc7 system are not exactly a bed of roses for Black.

If you are a subscriber to the French section of Chess Publishing, the quoted line, analysed by Neil McDonald, should be available to you in the archives.

If you have improvements, please post them here, since I am sure that there are many Winawer fans who would like to see the Qc7 line become a viable option once more!


I have already stated elsewhere in this forum that I had this in a game with White in 2005 which continued after 14.Bb5 Nec6 15.h4 Bxb5 16.axb5 Na5 17.h5 and now instead of 17... Nb3? analysed by Khalifman my opponent played the far superior 17... Qf7! and White seems to have no advantage. This has also been played by german GM Arik Braun vs. Zude in 2009 where Black won. I haven´t found anything really promising for White so as far as I can say Black is in good shape after 6... Qc7.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #19 - 07/15/10 at 17:43:09
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Well, 13...d4 is the best move according to Vitiugov, though the reason he gives is that 13...O-O-O is well met with 14.Nxc3.

There is something of analogue to the linked analysis after 13...d4, namely 14.Rg1 O-O-O 15.g4 (15.Nxd4 Nxd4 16.Qxd4 Bb5 17.Qxa7 Bxf1 18.Kxf1 Qc4+!=) 15...Be8 16.Rg3 Na5!, which is analyzed by Vitiugov and considered equal.

So, is the linked, 1995 analysis relevant anymore?
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #18 - 07/15/10 at 16:01:32
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@Jonathan Tait
Thanks for this upload. The article is very interesting as I was not aware of this white setup at all. (Maybe not entirely my fault as this line was not yet invented and played when I studied the theory of this line with Uhlmann's book etc.) So it was a good overview for me now.

Checking some recent corr games against this, I found one with an idea not mentioned in your paper. The black player had lost a game with 18... Rxg1 in 2007, so he came up here with what seems to me to be a better try.

[Event "WCCC33PR03"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2009.04.10"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Shishkov, Pavel Aleksandrovic"]
[Black "Willigen, Jan Willem van"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C18"]
[WhiteElo "2291"]
[BlackElo "2378"]
[EventDate "2009.??.??"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. Qg4 Qc7 8. Qxg7 Rg8 9. Qxh7 cxd4 10. Ne2 Nbc6 11. f4 Bd7 12. Qd3 dxc3 13. Rb1 O-O-O 14. h4 Nf5 15. h5 d4 16. Rg1 f6 17. g4 fxe5 18. gxf5 exf5 19. Rxg8 Rxg8 20. Qc4 Qd8 21. Kd1 Rg4 22. Qd5 e4 23. Nxd4 Rg1 24. Nxc6 Rxf1+ 1/2-1/2

Enjoy.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #17 - 07/15/10 at 07:43:56
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 07/06/10 at 17:33:24:
here it is Smiley

http://www.sendspace.com/file/9mrree

alternate left/right A5 across each A4 page (I don't know how to extract the relevant 'half pages' from the scan)


total downloads: 35 Shocked

any comments from anybody?
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #16 - 07/06/10 at 23:45:58
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Troilus wrote on 07/06/10 at 16:44:58:
"Had watson 1 and 2 years back, but moving house few times, then country - got left behind. Have PtF3 here but his winawer line is of course busted. Fortunately was shown the bust by a visiting GMelect mate before I played the line (he lost in it)."

What bust is that? Every attempt that I've seen, and there have been several, is flawed. Please be specific. 'Of course' is such a useful phrase when one lacks evidence.


I assume Bibs was referring to the line 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Qc7 7. Qg4 f5 8. Qg3 cxd4 9. cxd4 Ne7 and now instead of the old 10.Bd2 etc White plays 10. Ne2 O-O 11. c3, e.g. 11...b6 12. Nf4 Qd7 13. a4 Ba6 14. Bb5! and Black's game is difficult. He probably has to change plan and play 11...Nc6, or Moskalenko's 8...Nc6. The Qc7 line has not been seen much in recent years, probably owing to this line and to the fact that even the old main lines of the Qc7 system are not exactly a bed of roses for Black.

If you are a subscriber to the French section of Chess Publishing, the quoted line, analysed by Neil McDonald, should be available to you in the archives.

If you have improvements, please post them here, since I am sure that there are many Winawer fans who would like to see the Qc7 line become a viable option once more!
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #15 - 07/06/10 at 17:33:24
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Fllg wrote on 07/06/10 at 16:00:18:
Jonathan Tait wrote on 07/06/10 at 11:30:34:
I can scan the article and post it up for download if anyone is still interested? (Theory has moved on a bit since then.)


That would be great! Thank you in advance.


here it is Smiley

http://www.sendspace.com/file/9mrree

alternate left/right A5 across each A4 page (I don't know how to extract the relevant 'half pages' from the scan)
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #14 - 07/06/10 at 16:44:58
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"Had watson 1 and 2 years back, but moving house few times, then country - got left behind. Have PtF3 here but his winawer line is of course busted. Fortunately was shown the bust by a visiting GMelect mate before I played the line (he lost in it)."

What bust is that? Every attempt that I've seen, and there have been several, is flawed. Please be specific. 'Of course' is such a useful phrase when one lacks evidence.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #13 - 07/06/10 at 16:00:18
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 07/06/10 at 11:30:34:
I can scan the article and post it up for download if anyone is still interested? (Theory has moved on a bit since then.)


That would be great! Thank you in advance.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #12 - 07/06/10 at 15:38:50
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Also a good source of fresh info is NIC Yearbook. I will check at home in which issues this line has been covered recently.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #11 - 07/06/10 at 13:24:07
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Bibs wrote on 11/29/07 at 02:30:27:
Inn2
Thanks for that.

I have Khalif, Psakhis, Pedersen. Khalif naturally very thorough and impressive. Psakhis bit of a phone directory - as noted in previous thread - a shocking format, but fair content. Pedersen - agree - unimpressive. Chess book by numbers.
Have McD's Winawer book too - bit too short frankly, but what is there is reasonable.

Had watson 1 and 2 years back, but moving house few times, then country - got left behind. Have PtF3 here but his winawer line is of course busted. Fortunately was shown the bust by a visiting GMelect mate before I played the line (he lost in it).

Yeah - the real PP book has yet to be written (in English anyhow). Other languages? Mnb may be the expert here...? Anyone?

Agree. Perhaps Neil could pen one - an e4 e6 repertoire book maybe. With Guimard thrown in to boot.

Thanks again Inn2,

Bibs



Sorry, slightly off-topic, but where is Watson's Winawer line busted in PTF 3?

Thanks
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #10 - 07/06/10 at 11:30:34
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Paddy wrote on 11/29/07 at 11:34:54:
A few other sources that might be useful;

Much of the "busting" of the PP has been taking place in correspondence chess - check out especially the white games of Jonathan Tait. He wrote an influential article in Correspondence Chess 127 (!995) about his experiences with what has become known in PP circles as the Tait Variation: 13 Rb1 0-0-0 14 h4 Nf5 15 h5 d4 16 Rg1.


It was always known round here as "The Big Line" Smiley
as in: "I got to play The Big Line"
with the usual corollary: "I therefore won very easily"

I can scan the article and post it up for download if anyone is still interested? (Theory has moved on a bit since then.)
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #9 - 12/04/07 at 02:10:51
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Don't forget the Moles book, also there was an book put out by ECO on the French (I think by Victor Kortcinoi), Mastering the French has some stuff in it, oh (man I had a chance to get my hands on it) way back, I think Keres wrote a french book.

Yeah guys, I am waiting for that poison pawn book too. Oh but I think for me, Chess Pub is really the only place now to get some Poision Pawn stuff.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #8 - 12/01/07 at 12:42:47
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Bibs wrote on 12/01/07 at 05:54:47:
Leeroth, Paddy, Inn2 thanks all for your suggestions.

Paddy
Correspondence chess mag - looks worth a look certainly. Tried to google but stumped. How .


"Correspondence chess" is the long-running magazine of the British Correspondence Chess Association, which has a website with contact details at

http://www.bcca.info

For many years under the editorship of Jon Tait it was a great magazine, and it's still a good one.

The French seems still to be quite popular in corres chess (perhaps because the positions can be hard for computers to "understand"!).




  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #7 - 12/01/07 at 08:48:58
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Stigma,

thanks for that. Saves stumping up cash for something I would struggle to read!


  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #6 - 12/01/07 at 08:32:05
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I have both editions of the Uhlmann book (Winning with the French, Batsford 1995 and Französisch richtig gespielt - Ein Leben lang Französisch, Beyer 2004) so might be well-placed to compare them.

[2004] basically contains 15 more games, although not all 15 were played after 1991 (the year of the first german edition). Unfortunately from a Poisoned Pawn perspective, Uhlmann largely switched to 7...0-0 from the late 80s on, so both books have the same 7 main games with 7...Qc7, and probably no really new material (I could do a more detailed comparison later).

One curious glitch in [2004] is the game Short-Uhlmann, 1988 with the line 7.Qg4 0-0 8.Bd3 Nbc6 9.Qh5 h6?, were the book gives a lenghty analysis of 9...Ng6, and then "forgets" to return to the actual Short-Uhlmann game, giving instead the concluding moves (with analysis) of Anand-Lputian, 2000!
  

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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #5 - 12/01/07 at 05:54:47
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Leeroth, Paddy, Inn2 thanks all for your suggestions.

Paddy

The Uhlmann book - is it significantly different to his best games French collection? Enough different stuff to merit purchase?

Correspondence chess mag - looks worth a look certainly. Tried to google but stumped. How to get hold of this publication?
Will rebuy PtF 2.
Other book - later maybe...
Thanks for your help!

LeeRoth

Great source - printed out just now, will put on my wading boots...
V useful biblio too, yes.
Seems he thinks that Winkelman f3 malarckey not as bad as one may expect.

Thanks again, all.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #4 - 12/01/07 at 03:35:35
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CC IM John Knudsen, who used to play the PP with both colors, put out a newsletter devoted to the opening.  I found the first six issues at the links below (I don't know if there were any more of them).  They're a bit dated, but short and sweet, and definitely worth perusing.  Of special interest to this thread, there's usually a section in each discussing the Winawer literature.  (Incl. ChessPub!) 


http://www.correspondencechess.com/knudsen/twr/01.txt
http://www.correspondencechess.com/knudsen/twr/02.txt
http://www.correspondencechess.com/knudsen/twr/03.txt
http://www.correspondencechess.com/knudsen/twr/04.txt
http://www.correspondencechess.com/knudsen/twr/05.txt
http://www.correspondencechess.com/knudsen/twr/06.txt
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #3 - 11/29/07 at 11:34:54
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Bibs wrote on 11/29/07 at 02:30:27:
Inn2
Thanks for that.

I have Khalif, Psakhis, Pedersen. Khalif naturally very thorough and impressive. Psakhis bit of a phone directory - as noted in previous thread - a shocking format, but fair content. Pedersen - agree - unimpressive. Chess book by numbers.
Have McD's Winawer book too - bit too short frankly, but what is there is reasonable.

Had watson 1 and 2 years back, but moving house few times, then country - got left behind. Have PtF3 here but his winawer line is of course busted. Fortunately was shown the bust by a visiting GMelect mate before I played the line (he lost in it).

Yeah - the real PP book has yet to be written (in English anyhow). Other languages? Mnb may be the expert here...? Anyone?

Agree. Perhaps Neil could pen one - an e4 e6 repertoire book maybe. With Guimard thrown in to boot.

Thanks again Inn2,

Bibs



A few other sources that might be useful;

Much of the "busting" of the PP has been taking place in correspondence chess - check out especially the white games of Jonathan Tait. He wrote an influential article in Correspondence Chess 127 (!995) about his experiences with what has become known in PP circles as the Tait Variation: 13 Rb1 0-0-0 14 h4 Nf5 15 h5 d4 16 Rg1.

Französische Verteidigung - richtig gespielt - Ein Leben lang Französisch 2004 by Wolfgang Uhlmann, 2nd expanded edition (75 games). A nice hardback (but inexpensive) published by Joachim Beyer Verlag.

FRENCH POISONED PAWN by Zeuthen & Jarlnaes, Copenhagen 1971 (114pp) (Zeuthen was the co-author with Larsen of the famous ZOOM book). I don't have this but it could be a useful source of earlier material and PP themes.

By the way, Watson 2 is still well worth having.
  
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #2 - 11/29/07 at 02:30:27
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Inn2
Thanks for that.

I have Khalif, Psakhis, Pedersen. Khalif naturally very thorough and impressive. Psakhis bit of a phone directory - as noted in previous thread - a shocking format, but fair content. Pedersen - agree - unimpressive. Chess book by numbers.
Have McD's Winawer book too - bit too short frankly, but what is there is reasonable.

Had watson 1 and 2 years back, but moving house few times, then country - got left behind. Have PtF3 here but his winawer line is of course busted. Fortunately was shown the bust by a visiting GMelect mate before I played the line (he lost in it).

Yeah - the real PP book has yet to be written (in English anyhow). Other languages? Mnb may be the expert here...? Anyone?

Agree. Perhaps Neil could pen one - an e4 e6 repertoire book maybe. With Guimard thrown in to boot.

Thanks again Inn2,

Bibs

  
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lnn2
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Re: winawer poisoned pawn books
Reply #1 - 11/29/07 at 02:00:29
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Psakhis - Best overview I've seen (though fairly short - not more than 10 pages). He thinks Black is quite busted, but the line he recommends for White doesn't look so terrifying.

Pedersen- forget it

Watson 2nd ed - typical Watson book, not much "plans", sold it years ago, at that time suspected most of his lines can't stand the test of time (or Fritz).

Khalifman- have not seen this, but strongly suspect this should be best of the lot, his books tend to contain nice explanations, must be useful for black players even though white repertoire book.

probably your best sources are Chesspub, Khalifman and Psakhis.
am looking for a good Winawer PP book too. Neil if you're reading this, please write one Smiley
  
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C18: winawer poisoned pawn books
11/29/07 at 01:19:27
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All, wonder if you can help please.

This follows on from the previous thread.

Suggestions for decent books for overview of winawer poisoned pawn? Ideas, plans. Am around 2300 I guess but easy and straightforward is good for me.

I looked thru all previous 19 pages of threads but couldn't find anything specific hence the present post.

Have half memory of John Watson's first book doing so, but havent seen it for many years, so memory may fail me.

Other suggested works? Doesnt have to be recent - can use dbase, Neil McD and here for that.

Languages - can manage French, German, English (and Japanese - but that seems unlikely to be of help!)

Much appreciate any help on this front,

regards

Bibs


« Last Edit: 07/21/11 at 19:09:55 by dom »  
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