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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) The Delayed Schlieman (Read 18678 times)
Templare2
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Re: The Delayed Schlieman
Reply #20 - 02/21/08 at 12:00:51
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I have another hint in this variation (only one move, to be honest!)

14. Ne5!  Bd4   15. Nf7 Bxc3+  16. bxc3 Qf6  17. 0-0 Rf8  18. Ne5 Bb5  19. c4 Bd7  20. Nxd7
Kd7  21. Rfd1+ Bc8  22. Ba4 Nc6  23. Rab1 ( with sufficient play for the pawn- Kosten) Rd8!? with the idea of Kb8-a7 and Black is OK.
  

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Templare2
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Re: The Delayed Schlieman
Reply #19 - 02/15/08 at 16:45:07
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Oooops!  Angry
  

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Re: The Delayed Schlieman
Reply #18 - 02/15/08 at 10:05:36
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How many 1. e4 players know what to do in this variation?

I know it now - and you are to blame, cause you started this thread  Grin
  
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Templare2
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Re: The Delayed Schlieman
Reply #17 - 02/15/08 at 09:38:08
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The answer is "Yes". How many 1. e4 players know what to do in this variation?

By the way, Tony analysis can be usefull for Black players.
  

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Re: The Delayed Schlieman
Reply #16 - 12/19/07 at 12:55:21
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In my opinion, Black has  varius possible counters to the plan starting with 14. Ne5

1) 14. Ne5 Qf6 ( my post above)
2) 14.Ne5 Bd4 15.Nf7 Bxc3  16. bxc3 Qf6 ( this is better than line 1)
3) 14.Ne5 , 0-0-0  15. Nf7 Qg6!?
4) 14. Ne5, Rf8  15. 0-0 Bd4

2) looks like a good suggestion - I missed your strong Qf6

for the other ones:
1) 14. ... Qf6 15.O-O Bd4 16.Nxd7 Kxd7 17.Rfe1 (or 17.Rfd1)
3) 14. ... O-O-O 15.Rd1 with idea 15...Qf6 ? 16.Nxd7 Rxd7 17.Be6
4) 14. ... Rf8 15.Rd1 Bd4 16.Nxd7 Kxd7 17.Be6+ Ke8 18.O-O

in these three variations I think Black will be lost sooner or later

for 2): Bd4 15.Nf7 Bxc3+ 16.bxc3 Qf6  I suggest 17.O-O and I'm not sure if Black can solve all his problems (first of all the h8-rook is hanging, Black King is still unsafe,  whites rooks will come to d and e files,...)

I am sure you can find antidotes against an immediate loss of the game in most variations (chess is wonderful!) - but it looks like a very narrow path. Is playing this variation worth all this trouble?
  
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Templare2
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Re: The Delayed Schlieman
Reply #15 - 12/19/07 at 12:00:38
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Matemax wrote on 12/17/07 at 06:41:18:
Quote:
but seems that Black have a decent position in a neglected system

NO! - Just a little run through the comp:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 f5 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 Bc5 7.Bg5 Nge7 8.c3 dxc3 9.Nxc3 h6 10.Bxe7 Nxe7 11.Bb3 d5 12.exd6 e.p. Qxd6 13.Qe2 Bd7

and now a better lane (line): 14.Ne5 Bd4 15.Nf7 Qc5 16.O-O Rf8 17.Rac1

looks really bad for black (more than +2 for white) Wink


In my opinion, Black has  varius possible counters to the plan starting with 14. Ne5

1) 14. Ne5 Qf6 ( my post above)
2) 14.Ne5 Bd4 15.Nf7 Bxc3  16. bxc3 Qf6 ( this is better than line 1)
3) 14.Ne5 , 0-0-0  15. Nf7 Qg6!?
4) 14. Ne5, Rf8  15. 0-0 Bd4

Lines 1-2-4 are playable lines against 14. Ce5
Line 3 is a bit speculative.
  

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Templare2
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Re: The Delayed Schlieman
Reply #14 - 12/17/07 at 22:52:08
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Matemax wrote on 12/17/07 at 06:41:18:
Quote:
but seems that Black have a decent position in a neglected system

NO! - Just a little run through the comp:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 f5 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 Bc5 7.Bg5 Nge7 8.c3 dxc3 9.Nxc3 h6 10.Bxe7 Nxe7 11.Bb3 d5 12.exd6 e.p. Qxd6 13.Qe2 Bd7

and now a better lane (line): 14.Ne5 Bd4 15.Nf7 Qc5 16.O-O Rf8 17.Rac1

looks really bad for black (more than +2 for white) Wink


Just offhand I would like to propose 14.. Qf6 but I must control this with my silicon friend when I'll retourn at home.

Thanks for Your answer


  

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Re: The Delayed Schlieman
Reply #13 - 12/17/07 at 06:41:18
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but seems that Black have a decent position in a neglected system

NO! - Just a little run through the comp:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 f5 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 Bc5 7.Bg5 Nge7 8.c3 dxc3 9.Nxc3 h6 10.Bxe7 Nxe7 11.Bb3 d5 12.exd6 e.p. Qxd6 13.Qe2 Bd7

and now a better lane (line): 14.Ne5 Bd4 15.Nf7 Qc5 16.O-O Rf8 17.Rac1

looks really bad for black (more than +2 for white) Wink
  
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Re: The Delayed Schlieman
Reply #12 - 12/17/07 at 00:27:35
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What's decent about it?

Tops Smiley
  

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Templare2
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Re: The Delayed Schlieman
Reply #11 - 12/17/07 at 00:17:04
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kylemeister wrote on 12/04/07 at 19:23:42:
Indeed it's often given in the opening encyclopedias as "±".  I seem to recall Kortchnoi playing it against Karpov in 1974 (maybe the last top-level game with it?).



Karpov-Kortchnoi 1974: 1. e4 e5  2. Nf3 Nc6  3. Bb5 a6  4. Ba4 f5  5. d4 exd4  6. e5 Bc5  7. 0-0 Nge7  8. Bb3 d5  9. exd6 Qxd6  10. Re1 h6  11. Nbd2 b5?!  better is 11.., Qf6

W.Watson-Nunn London 1984: 8. c3 dxc3  9. Nxc3 d5? 10. Bg5 Kf8 +-

Mortensen -Lilija Copenhagen 1998: 8. c3 dxc3  9. Nxc3 d5? 10. Bg5 Be6 +-   if 10.., 0-0 11. Nxd5   or  10.., b5  11. Nxb5

Black must play 9.., h6!
Playable is 9.., d6?! with +/=

Almasi, Z-Shirov Amber-rapid 2003: 7. Bg5 Nge7  8. c3!? dxc3  9. Nxc3 h6  10. Bxe7 Nxe7  11. Bb3 d5  12. exd6 Qxd6  13. Qe2 Bd7  14. Rd1 Qb6'  15. Bf7+!! +-

But Lane in "THe Ruy LOpez explained" Batsford 2005 suggests 14.., Qf6!

I don't think we can expect to see the popularity of 4.., f5 grow, but seems that Black have a decent position in a neglected system

  

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Re: The Delayed Schlieman
Reply #10 - 12/08/07 at 14:03:32
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Well, I must think that the Janisch with 4.., f5  seems like a dangerous move.   

Conventional wisdom states that White doesen't need to worry about 4.., f5

5. d4 is White's main line (maybe the only move to fight for an advantage) but  if Blak knows he'doing, his chances are promising.
  

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Re: The Delayed Schlieman
Reply #9 - 12/05/07 at 00:14:18
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alumbrado wrote on 12/04/07 at 23:11:07:
linksspringer wrote on 12/04/07 at 23:01:40:
Templare2 wrote on 12/04/07 at 22:08:32:
I know that Khalifman suggests 5. d4 in his book Openings for White according to Anand and the main line follows the path of tbe game Roossmann-Goldberg >Rostock 1984. In this game Black played  17.., g5?! but this move is a mistake. Instead 17.., Ne5! is better and Black reaches an even game.

Just for information, this is the game Rossmann, Helmut - Goldberg, Alexander C70 Rostock-B 10th

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 f5 5. d4 exd4 6. e5 Bc5 7. O-O Nge7 8. Bb3 d5 9. exd6 Qxd6 10. Re1 h6 11. Nbd2 Qf6 12. Nc4 Be6 13. Rxe6 Qxe6 14. Nb6 Qd6 15. Nxa8 Kd7 16. Nxc7 Kxc7 17. Ne1 g5 18. Nd3 Bb6 19. Bd2 Ng6 20. Qh5 Nce5 21. Re1 Qf6 22. f4 Nxd3 23. cxd3 Nxf4 24. Bxf4+ gxf4 25. Re6 Qd8 26. Qg6 Ba5 27. Qg7+ Kb8 28. Re7 Qc8 29. Qe5+ 1-0

What is the Italian book you referred to earlier? Thanks!


Very useful, Mr McLinksspringer, thank you!  That's a very long line, Signor Templare - is there some further analysis to back up your claim that Black has equality after 17...Ne5(!)?  How do you propose to meet 18.Nd3 (as in the game)?



17. Ne1 Ne5  18. Nd3 Nxd3  19. cxd3 g5  20. Bd2 Nc6 Weinitschke-Tischer DDR 1980. In my opinion  the position is = .
  

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Re: The Delayed Schlieman
Reply #8 - 12/05/07 at 00:05:33
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Many thanks for "Signor Templare".  Are You just pulling my leg? If my forum is not interesting I can stop writing. I do not want to bore anyone.


"Without having the Greet book readily to hand I'm not sure exactly what variation you're referring to but I wuld imagine you mean 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 f5 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 Bc5 7.0-0 Nge7 8.c3 dxc3 9.Nxc3 and now 9...h6!?

Well, it might be an improvement but it (a) does nothing to aid Black's development; and (b) slightly but perceptibly weakens the light squares around the Black king.  I like the idea 10.Bb3 for White and if 10...Na5 then simply 11.Re1 Nxb3 12.Qxb3"

After 11. Te1 Black can play 11.., b5!?
  

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Re: The Delayed Schlieman
Reply #7 - 12/04/07 at 23:11:07
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linksspringer wrote on 12/04/07 at 23:01:40:
Templare2 wrote on 12/04/07 at 22:08:32:
I know that Khalifman suggests 5. d4 in his book Openings for White according to Anand and the main line follows the path of tbe game Roossmann-Goldberg >Rostock 1984. In this game Black played  17.., g5?! but this move is a mistake. Instead 17.., Ne5! is better and Black reaches an even game.

Just for information, this is the game Rossmann, Helmut - Goldberg, Alexander C70 Rostock-B 10th

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 f5 5. d4 exd4 6. e5 Bc5 7. O-O Nge7 8. Bb3 d5 9. exd6 Qxd6 10. Re1 h6 11. Nbd2 Qf6 12. Nc4 Be6 13. Rxe6 Qxe6 14. Nb6 Qd6 15. Nxa8 Kd7 16. Nxc7 Kxc7 17. Ne1 g5 18. Nd3 Bb6 19. Bd2 Ng6 20. Qh5 Nce5 21. Re1 Qf6 22. f4 Nxd3 23. cxd3 Nxf4 24. Bxf4+ gxf4 25. Re6 Qd8 26. Qg6 Ba5 27. Qg7+ Kb8 28. Re7 Qc8 29. Qe5+ 1-0

What is the Italian book you referred to earlier? Thanks!


Very useful, Mr McLinksspringer, thank you!  That's a very long line, Signor Templare - is there some further analysis to back up your claim that Black has equality after 17...Ne5(!)?  How do you propose to meet 18.Nd3 (as in the game)?
  

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Re: The Delayed Schlieman
Reply #6 - 12/04/07 at 23:01:40
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Templare2 wrote on 12/04/07 at 22:08:32:
I know that Khalifman suggests 5. d4 in his book Openings for White according to Anand and the main line follows the path of tbe game Roossmann-Goldberg >Rostock 1984. In this game Black played  17.., g5?! but this move is a mistake. Instead 17.., Ne5! is better and Black reaches an even game.

Just for information, this is the game Rossmann, Helmut - Goldberg, Alexander C70 Rostock-B 10th

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 f5 5. d4 exd4 6. e5 Bc5 7. O-O Nge7 8. Bb3 d5 9. exd6 Qxd6 10. Re1 h6 11. Nbd2 Qf6 12. Nc4 Be6 13. Rxe6 Qxe6 14. Nb6 Qd6 15. Nxa8 Kd7 16. Nxc7 Kxc7 17. Ne1 g5 18. Nd3 Bb6 19. Bd2 Ng6 20. Qh5 Nce5 21. Re1 Qf6 22. f4 Nxd3 23. cxd3 Nxf4 24. Bxf4+ gxf4 25. Re6 Qd8 26. Qg6 Ba5 27. Qg7+ Kb8 28. Re7 Qc8 29. Qe5+ 1-0

What is the Italian book you referred to earlier? Thanks!
  
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