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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern (Read 13434 times)
flaviddude
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #35 - 12/27/07 at 12:57:39
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cma6 wrote on 12/06/07 at 16:57:33:
parisestmagique wrote on 12/06/07 at 16:35:33:
Do you plan with white to play 1.d4 g6 2.c4 or 1.d4 g6 2.e4


I would much prefer to play 2 c4, as I know and like White side of KID.

However, I have to keep in mind the warning given to me by strong Pirc/Modern players, including IM Larry Kaufman, that after 1 d4, d6; 2 c4?, Black equalizes; and they showed why.  After 1 d4, d6; they convinced me that White must play either 2 e4 or 2 Nf3. I would play 1 d4, d6; 2 e4


There is one other almost unknown move that you could look at.

1. d4 d6 2. f4 (I play 1. e4 d6 when 2. f4? is answered by 2.d5 when the move 2. f4 is not good versus the centre counter.) However in the position  after 1.d4 d6 2. f4 you are into largely unexplored territory.
  

I am hopelessly addicted to the King's Gambit
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MNb
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #34 - 12/25/07 at 02:09:11
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According to Euwe Steinitz already claimed equality before White's first move .... In fact that is another reason to maintain that 1.d4 d6 2.c4?! is an absurd evaluation.
  

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Bibs
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #33 - 12/24/07 at 08:24:42
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yawn.
the game has just started. nobody knows. talking of equality or otherwise at move 2 has little meaning. what random punter here or random IM says doesnt matter too much at this early stage to you or to anyone.

make some more moves. see what happens.

chess is played on the board in front of you. you cannot simply claim equality thus the draw and go'n watch footie on the telly. has exi.exe returned?
  
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #32 - 12/24/07 at 03:36:09
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But according to cma6 and Kaufman, it is 2.c4?! and that black equalises.
  
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Bibs
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #31 - 12/22/07 at 14:18:35
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sss,all
No, nothing wrong with e4. White is happy there.

Black neednt oblige however with immediate f5.

Black can Fianchetto or  Be7-g5. Standard moves. Played plenty of games myself online with both setups.

Its move 3. Both have played sensible moves. Its a game.
  
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #30 - 12/22/07 at 14:04:01
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LeeRoth wrote on 12/07/07 at 02:56:17:
At the risk of heading off-topic, is there something wrong with the line that Palliser gives in Play 1.d4?

1.d4 d6 2.c4 e5 3.d5 f5 4.e4 . . .



Don't think that anyone has answered this. Can someone tell me what is wrong with this line, because I play this line as white
  
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Dragan Glas
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #29 - 12/21/07 at 23:41:23
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Greetings,

I found this one in my database...

[Event "10th It"]
[Site "Lippstadt GER"]
[Date "2000.07.15"]
[Round "10"]
[White "PCONNERS"]
[Black "McShane, L"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "2480"]
[ECO "B10"]
[EventDate "2000.07.06"]

1.e4 c6 2.c4 d6 3.d4 e5 4.dxe5 dxe5 5.Qxd8+ Kxd8 6.Nf3 f6 7.Be2 Bb4+ 8.Nc3
Be6 9.Be3 Nd7 10.O-O Ne7 11.Na4 Ng6 12.c5 Ba5 13.b4 Bc7 14.Nc3 Ke7 15.Rad1
Bf7 16.Nd2 Nf4 17.Bc4 Bh5 18.f3 Rhd8 19.b5 Be8 20.Rf2 Ba5 21.bxc6 bxc6 22.
Na4 Nf8 23.Rb1 Rab8 24.Nb3 Bc7 25.Bf1 Bf7 26.Rfb2 Ke8 27.Nd2 Rxb2 28.Rxb2
Rb8 29.Rxb8+ Bxb8 30.g3 N4e6 31.Nb3 g6 32.Kf2 Bc7 33.Nb2 Nd8 34.h4 Be6 35.
Bc4 Bc8 36.a4 Nde6 37.Nd3 h5 38.Nb4 Kd7 39.Na6 Bd8 40.Kf1 Be7 41.Nb4 Nd8
42.Ke1 Nfe6 43.Kd1 Kc7 44.Kc1 Bd7 45.Kc2 Be8 46.Na6+ Kc8 47.Bf2 Bf7 48.Nb4
Kd7 49.Kc3 Bf8 50.Be3 Be7 51.g4 Be8 52.Nd3 Nf7 53.gxh5 gxh5 54.a5 Bd8 55.
a6 Bc7 56.Nb4 Ned8 57.Nd2 Nh8 58.Bb3 Ng6 59.Nc4 Bb8 60.Bf2 Bf7 61.Nb6+ Ke7
62.Ba4 Be8 63.Nc8+ Kd7 64.Nd6 Ne7 65.Nd5 Ng8 66.Nb6+ Ke7 67.Bb3 Nh6 68.Be3
Nhf7 69.Nf5+ Kf8 70.Ng3 Nb7 71.axb7 axb6 72.cxb6 Nd6 73.Bc5 Bg6 74.Ba4 Ke7
75.Bxc6 Ke6 76.Kb4 f5 77.exf5+ Nxf5 78.Nxf5 Bxf5 79.Be8 e4 80.Bxh5 Kd5 81.
Bg4 Bh7 82.Kb5 Bf4 83.h5 Bb8 84.h6 Bf4 85.fxe4+ Bxe4 86.Bf3 1-0

No doubt, it's one that McShane would rather forget! Wink

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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belaji
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #28 - 12/21/07 at 22:10:32
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[Event "Gibtelecom Masters"][Site "Gibraltar"][Date "2006.01.25"][Round "2.15"][White "Guerrero, Carlos"][Black "Georgiev, Kiril"][Result "0-1"][ECO "B07"][WhiteElo "2160"][BlackElo "2645"][PlyCount "70"][EventDate "2006.01.24"]
1. e4 d6 2. d4 e5 3. dxe5 dxe5 4. Qxd8+ Kxd8 5. Bc4 f6 6. Nc3 c6 7. Be3 Kc7 8.O-O-O Nd7 9. a4 b6 10. Nge2 Bc5 11. Rd3 Ne7 12. Rhd1 a5 13. Kb1 Bxe3 14. Rxe3 Nc5 15. Nc1 g5 16. g3 Ng6 17. Nd3 Nb7 18. Bb3 Nd6 19. f3 h5 20. Rf1 Ba6 21. Rf2 Rad8 22. Re1 h4 23. g4 Nb7 24. Bf7 Ne7 25. Nc1 Rhf8 26. Bb3 Nc5 27. Rd1 Rd4 28.Rfd2 Rfd8 29. Rxd4 exd4 30. N3e2 Nxb3 31. cxb3 d3 32. Ng1 d2 33. Nce2 Bd3+ 34.Ka2 Bc2 35. Nc3 Rd3 0-1
  
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Dragan Glas
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #27 - 12/21/07 at 16:23:54
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Greetings,

Willempie wrote on 12/07/07 at 07:17:48:
cma6 wrote on 12/06/07 at 16:57:33:
I would much prefer to play 2 c4, as I know and like White side of KID.

However, I have to keep in mind the warning given to me by strong Pirc/Modern players, including IM Larry Kaufman, that after 1 d4, d6; 2 c4?, Black equalizes; and they showed why.  After 1 d4, d6; they convinced me that White must play either 2 e4 or 2 Nf3. I would play 1 d4, d6; 2 e4

I am unaware of a line that gives black equality after 2.c4. Check some games by Glek after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3. He got his behind wooped by various white players.

Another option for White, as MarinFan pointed out, is Mednis's recommendation in From the Opening to the Endgame:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1154137596/11#9

Quote:
3) A line in the Modern with c4, 1.e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. c4 d6 4.Nc3 e5, white plays f4 after exchange of queens. This still looks quite good for white.


I normally play 1. d4, d6; 2. c4, and if 2..., e5 transpose to the above anyway, if Black plays the other moves.

Or if 1. d4, d6; 2. c4, e5; 3. de, de; 4. Qxd8+, Kxd8; 5. Nf3, Nc6; - if Black plays 5..., e4; then 6. Ng5 - 6. Nc3, Nf6; 7. Bg5. (Edited - I was at work when I posted this - I seem  to have missed out move 6 and put Bb5 instead of Bg5.  Embarrassed )

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
« Last Edit: 12/21/07 at 22:59:29 by Dragan Glas »  
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #26 - 12/10/07 at 01:44:35
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cma6: Additional information would be highly appreciated.
- Do you like tactical or strategical positions best
- Would you be ok with a draw
Would be my first two questions.

a) If you like tactical struggles and would accept/like a draw, i would highly recommend the Austrian Attack.
In the Bb5/e5/e6 line, Black has
8. ... Bb5: which is a very risky move and leads to an easy += and
8. ... fe6: where you are able to force the draw.
b) If you like tactical struggles but need/want a win, i'd go for 4.Bg5
c) If you are more into the positional type of play, go for 4.g3

Well and I would recommend Pirc Alert! (Lev Alburt / Alex Chernin). The plan behind the opening wont help you very much, but the second part of the book (theoretical variations) helps players of the white side as well.
  
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #25 - 12/08/07 at 20:39:39
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I recall that 1. e4 d6 2. d4 e5 was played (successfully) by Emanuel Lasker against Janowsky.  I too would have thought it inferior to the version with ...Nf6 and Nc3 added (at least since White's QN is not "misplaced" in a line like 3. de de 4. Qxd8+ Kxd8 5. Bc4 Be6 6. Bxe6 fe), but maybe that's not clear.
  
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #24 - 12/07/07 at 22:29:03
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Bibs wrote on 12/07/07 at 15:15:35:
Just wondering - do you know of any decent strength IMs or GMs who punt this regularlyas black? Interested at looking at some games in this. Hope you can give some pointers.
Useful to punt this as an avoid-the-theory outplay-the-weakie system.

cheers
Bibs



I saw Georgiev beat a 2100 player with this in Gibraltar 2006 if you can fish that game out.

The Explosive repetoire book has some stuff on it, a whole chapter on varieties of these endings. Hmm, yes, very explosive  Roll Eyes


  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #23 - 12/07/07 at 20:28:10
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Meat wrote on 12/07/07 at 14:30:53:
Quote:
3. dxe5 dxe5 4. Qxd8+ Kxd8 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. Bc4 also looks good to me.


I know quite a few players who specialized in this endgame and think it gives them at least equal chances. As a matter of fact, they even have a positive score as black here, so maybe this line is not so clear at all.


I used to crush opponents in the days I still played the Danish Gambit: 1.e4 e5 2.d4 d6 3.dxe5. I think this version is inferior to 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.dxe5.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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cma6
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #22 - 12/07/07 at 16:30:45
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JEH wrote on 12/07/07 at 09:39:35:
There are a lot of decent lines against the Pirc/Modern, but nothing that really stands out as best. Just pick something that suits your style.

If you play the Saemisch against the KID and want to  avoid the Pirc, there is

1. d4 d6 2. e4 Nf6 3. f3

Also there is the mildly annoying 1. d4 d6. 2. Bg5 if you want to wangle with move orders.


Here is the simplest idea of all for White if he like the KID NF3 lines and is comfortable against the Leningrad Dutch:
  1 d4, d6; 2 Nf3
  
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #21 - 12/07/07 at 15:40:40
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Meat wrote on 12/07/07 at 14:30:53:
Quote:
3. dxe5 dxe5 4. Qxd8+ Kxd8 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. Bc4 also looks good to me.


I know quite a few players who specialized in this endgame and think it gives them at least equal chances. As a matter of fact, they even have a positive score as black here, so maybe this line is not so clear at all.

6.Bb5 is stronger I think. On 6.Bc4 black can play f6.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #20 - 12/07/07 at 15:15:35
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Meat,

Your comments are interesting. I tend to agree - after being squashed some years ago as an unknowing white.
Bauer has some good stuff on this in his book.

e4 d6 d4 e5 de5 de5 Qd8: Kd8: ...

Just wondering - do you know of any decent strength IMs or GMs who punt this regularlyas black? Interested at looking at some games in this. Hope you can give some pointers.
Useful to punt this as an avoid-the-theory outplay-the-weakie system.

cheers
Bibs

  
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #19 - 12/07/07 at 14:30:53
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Quote:
3. dxe5 dxe5 4. Qxd8+ Kxd8 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. Bc4 also looks good to me.


I know quite a few players who specialized in this endgame and think it gives them at least equal chances. As a matter of fact, they even have a positive score as black here, so maybe this line is not so clear at all.
  
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #18 - 12/07/07 at 13:04:26
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cma6 wrote on 12/06/07 at 23:42:43:
Antillian wrote on 12/06/07 at 23:02:25:
Note, after 1. d4 d6 2. e4, you are not bound to get a Pirc, you  also have to be prepared for 2...e5


In this case, what do you think White's best is?

Seems no-one answered this yet? 2...e5 just transposes to a Philidor, so 3. Nf3 and White is doing fine. 3. dxe5 dxe5 4. Qxd8+ Kxd8 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. Bc4 also looks good to me.
  
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #17 - 12/07/07 at 09:39:35
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There are a lot of decent lines against the Pirc/Modern, but nothing that really stands out as best. Just pick something that suits your style.

If you play the Saemisch against the KID and want to  avoid the Pirc, there is

1. d4 d6 2. e4 Nf6 3. f3

Also there is the mildly annoying 1. d4 d6. 2. Bg5 if you want to wangle with move orders.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #16 - 12/07/07 at 07:17:48
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cma6 wrote on 12/06/07 at 16:57:33:
I would much prefer to play 2 c4, as I know and like White side of KID.

However, I have to keep in mind the warning given to me by strong Pirc/Modern players, including IM Larry Kaufman, that after 1 d4, d6; 2 c4?, Black equalizes; and they showed why.  After 1 d4, d6; they convinced me that White must play either 2 e4 or 2 Nf3. I would play 1 d4, d6; 2 e4

I am unaware of a line that gives black equality after 2.c4. Check some games by Glek after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3. He got his behind wooped by various white players.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #15 - 12/07/07 at 03:35:01
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[quote author=nmga link=1196956996/0#13 date=1196994242]It should perhaps be said that not everyone agrees that after 1 d4 d6 2 c4 is tantamount to an inaccuracy because of 2 ...e5. Markovich and parisestmagique, for instance, think 3 Nc3 ed 4 Qd4 favours White. I don't myself have a view on the matter, but I just thought I'd point this out.

Kasparov showed how to play this in Huebner-Kasparov, Hamburg, 1985, where K won in 28 moves. 4 Qd4, Nf6; 5 g3, Nc6; 6 Qd2, Be6;
7 Nd5, Ne5; 8 b3, Ne4; 9 Qe3, Nc5. Black looks at least equal.

Again, quoting IM Kaufman, "From a theoretical point of view after 1 d4, d6; 2 c4, e5; 3 Nf3 only3...e4 is of interest, otherwise White would be happy to enter this line. "
  
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #14 - 12/07/07 at 02:56:17
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At the risk of heading off-topic, is there something wrong with the line that Palliser gives in Play 1.d4?

1.d4 d6 2.c4 e5 3.d5 f5 4.e4 . . .
  
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #13 - 12/07/07 at 02:24:02
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It should perhaps be said that not everyone agrees that after 1 d4 d6 2 c4 is tantamount to an inaccuracy because of 2 ...e5. Markovich and parisestmagique, for instance, think 3 Nc3 ed 4 Qd4 favours White. I don't myself have a view on the matter, but I just thought I'd point this out.

Actually, I've just invented a completely new move in this position: 3 Nc3 Qe7!!, so chk was right all along!
  
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #12 - 12/07/07 at 02:00:01
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cma6 wrote on 12/07/07 at 01:11:47:
Be3/150 - well, any repertoire book really. Emms, Summerscale, Kaufman.
For how black players may respond - check Vigus' bible. The Dr James rather than St James version. An excellent and very thorough work.
Also Davies' DVD.
Are you referring to "The Pirc in Black and White" - James Vigus?

As far as I know, those repertoire books only investigate the 150, that is with an early Nf3. As I have argued many times most dangerous is 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 (0-0 6.0-0-0 7.f3 c6 8.h4!) 6.Bh6. After 6.Nf3 Qa5 7.h3 Nbd7 8.Bd3 0-0 9.0-0 e5 play is like the Classical.
4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be3 0-0 6.Qd2 e5 7.0-0-0 Qe7 is another reason to leave the knight on g1 for a couple of moves.
James Vigus' books seems the best source, also for 4.Be3 c6 (eg the Archbishop Attack 5.h3 Bg7 6.g4).
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #11 - 12/07/07 at 01:37:01
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cma6

Vigus: 'Pirc in Black and white'
yes, that's right.

Apologies - made a religious slip earlier - King James rather than St James naturally. Amended. Forgive - am at work.
  
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #10 - 12/07/07 at 01:11:47
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For anti-Pirc I suggest Austrian, Be3/150, or Bg5.

Austrian - sources More than enough in Khalif.

Be3/150 - well, any repertoire book really. Emms, Summerscale, Kaufman. Some good analysis earlier here on cpub.
For Bg5 - Collins has a little. But too little. But best check Nakamura games. He slaughtered me in this a few months back. Not cricket to reveal post mortem discussion, but Bg5 is more dangerous than some books indicate. Needs careful treatment.

For how black players may respond - check Vigus' bible. The Dr James rather than St James version. An excellent and very thorough work.
Also Davies' DVD.

Are you referring to "The Pirc in Black and White" - James Vigus?


Bibs, thanks for the very useful post.
  
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #9 - 12/07/07 at 00:52:07
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For anti-Pirc I suggest Austrian, Be3/150, or Bg5.

Austrian - sources are Carpathian Warrior (a3 line) and El Khalif. More than enough in Khalif.

Be3/150 - well, any repertoire book really. Emms, Summerscale, Kaufman. Some good analysis earlier here on cpub.

For Bg5 - Collins has a little. But too little. But best check Nakamura games. He slaughtered me in this a few months back. Not cricket to reveal post mortem discussion, but Bg5 is more dangerous than some books indicate. Needs careful treatment.

For how black players may respond - check Vigus' bible. The Dr James rather than King James version. An excellent and very thorough work.
Also Davies' DVD.

Festive regards

Bibs
  
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #8 - 12/06/07 at 23:42:43
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Antillian wrote on 12/06/07 at 23:02:25:
Note, after 1. d4 d6 2. e4, you are not bound to get a Pirc, you  also have to be prepared for 2...e5


In this case, what do you think White's best is?
  
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #7 - 12/06/07 at 23:02:25
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Note, after 1. d4 d6 2. e4, you are not bound to get a Pirc, you  also have to be prepared for 2...e5
  

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cma6
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #6 - 12/06/07 at 22:52:25
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So do you think that Khalifman's book will give me enough material for White against a booked up GM playing the Pirc or Modern?
  
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #5 - 12/06/07 at 19:19:08
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after d4 d6 you can also play 2. Nf3 ...

I play 1.e4 and do also play according to khalifmann's book the austrian attack.
I like it quite much, but it is really sharp stuff.
you could also consider to play with c3 Nbd2 e4 like carlsen did today in his game against cheparinov ...
  
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cma6
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Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #4 - 12/06/07 at 18:23:03
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I'm getting off topic, but here was the concluding post from the other board on this subject:
"The consensus (if I can use that word for two respondents) about 2 c4 is that after 1 d4,d6; 2 c4, e5; 3 Nf3, e4;  Black has equalized. If that is the case, then I agree that 2 c4 is just bad."
  That was my post, summing up the other posts.
  
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #3 - 12/06/07 at 17:14:16
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cma6 wrote on 12/06/07 at 16:57:33:
However, I have to keep in mind the warning given to me by strong Pirc/Modern players, including IM Larry Kaufman, that after 1 d4, d6; 2 c4?, and they showed why.


2. ... f5! I suppose  Tongue Cheesy (sorry for being a bit corny)
  

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Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #2 - 12/06/07 at 16:57:33
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parisestmagique wrote on 12/06/07 at 16:35:33:
Do you plan with white to play 1.d4 g6 2.c4 or 1.d4 g6 2.e4


I would much prefer to play 2 c4, as I know and like White side of KID.

However, I have to keep in mind the warning given to me by strong Pirc/Modern players, including IM Larry Kaufman, that after 1 d4, d6; 2 c4?, Black equalizes; and they showed why.  After 1 d4, d6; they convinced me that White must play either 2 e4 or 2 Nf3. I would play 1 d4, d6; 2 e4
« Last Edit: 12/06/07 at 18:19:29 by cma6 »  
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Re: Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
Reply #1 - 12/06/07 at 16:35:33
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Do you plan with white to play 1.d4 g6 2.c4 or 1.d4 g6 2.e4
  
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cma6
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Preparation for White against Pirc/Modern
12/06/07 at 16:03:16
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I play 1 d4 and have to prepare against a Pirc or Modern from  GM-level player(s) in correspondence chess.
  My only resource in Larry Kaufman's "The Chess Advantage in Black and White" (2004), where chapters 11-12 cover his recommended lines against the Pirc and Modern.

  I was also thinking of getting "Opening for White According to Anand Vol. 4 - Alexander Khalifman" (2005), which is supposed to have original Khalifman analysis in the Pirc and Modern.

   Would any of your Pirc/Modern specialists have books/CDs/DVDs to recommend to supplement Kaufman's book?
                                  Thanks, CMA
  
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