Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez (Read 47419 times)
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2050
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #24 - 01/27/08 at 05:52:35
Post Tools
Yes you are quite right, this ending is highly unpleasant for black.

Nice piece of analysis, well done.

Tops Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Matemax
God Member
*****
Offline


Chesspub gives you strength!

Posts: 1302
Joined: 11/04/07
Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #23 - 01/25/08 at 08:11:41
Post Tools
Quote:
Is this clearly winning for White? After 20.Bxd5+ it looks like he remains the exchange down for a pawn and the game continues.
What am I missing?

The line I suggest goes:
20...Be6 21.Qf3 (its important to exchange queens on f6 as seen later) Qf6 (if Kg7 then Qc3 with the same position following) 22.Qf6 Kf6 23.Re6 Kf5 (now it looks as white has problems) 24.g4 Kg4 25.Ba8 Ra8 26.Rh6 (Re7 is also a possibility) - DIAGRAMM

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

White will win a pawn (it should not be taken immediatly  Smiley). According to Marin (Learning from the legends) I would estimate this position as 2:1 for white, which means black has some chances for a draw ("All rook endgames are draw" - OK, but here you have to suffer a lot). I am still analysing this rook endgame (which improves my endgame play  Wink) and I dont have the final conclusion that white is winning in all the lines. But this may also be a problem of myself - a very strong endgame player would certainly be a better analyst here.

If you ask "clearly" winning I have to admit: "No" - but the winning chances are high and as it looks this is at the moment blacks best and only way in the hole line (!) with 8.Bg5  Smiley

I would be very happy about the evaluation of the diagramm!  Roll Eyes
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2050
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #22 - 01/25/08 at 03:48:08
Post Tools
Matemax wrote on 01/23/08 at 11:51:29:
19.Qh5

a) 19...Qg6 20.Bd5 (white remains at least a pawn up with a better position)

b) 19...Kf6 20.Kg1! - and I hope I made this move work, there are many branches ...

I got in contact with NIC about 2 weeks ago and they are interested to bring it in the "forum" of YB 86 (even with a photograph of me  Shocked)). Until now they did not come up with additional questions to the analysis but promised me to have a critical look.


Is this clearly winning for White? After 20.Bxd5+ it looks like he remains the exchange down for a pawn and the game continues.
What am I missing?

Toppy Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GMTonyKosten
YaBB Administrator
*****
Offline


Mr Dynamic?

Posts: 3100
Location: Clermont-Ferrand
Joined: 12/19/02
Gender: Male
Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #21 - 01/24/08 at 00:51:49
Post Tools
Yes, that looks good, and after 18...Qf5 and ...Be6 I guess you take the queen? All-in-all it looks like Black is in real trouble in both 8 Bg5 and the mainline endgame. Cry
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Matemax
God Member
*****
Offline


Chesspub gives you strength!

Posts: 1302
Joined: 11/04/07
Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #20 - 01/23/08 at 11:51:29
Post Tools
19.Qh5

a) 19...Qg6 20.Bd5 (white remains at least a pawn up with a better position)

b) 19...Kf6 20.Kg1! - and I hope I made this move work, there are many branches ...

I got in contact with NIC about 2 weeks ago and they are interested to bring it in the "forum" of YB 86 (even with a photograph of me  Shocked)). Until now they did not come up with additional questions to the analysis but promised me to have a critical look.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GMTonyKosten
YaBB Administrator
*****
Offline


Mr Dynamic?

Posts: 3100
Location: Clermont-Ferrand
Joined: 12/19/02
Gender: Male
Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #19 - 01/23/08 at 11:29:40
Post Tools
Matemax wrote on 12/27/07 at 08:29:54:
You dont believe me? Well you dont have to - but give 16.Re1 yourself a try - I have no problem posting my analysis, if wanted Wink

Presumably your winnning line goes: 16. Re1 fxg5 17. Qh6+ Kf7 18. Bxc6 Qd6:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

and then what? Undecided
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
GMTonyKosten
YaBB Administrator
*****
Offline


Mr Dynamic?

Posts: 3100
Location: Clermont-Ferrand
Joined: 12/19/02
Gender: Male
Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #18 - 01/23/08 at 11:25:25
Post Tools
Matemax wrote on 01/22/08 at 18:38:13:
Quote:
regarding 8. Bg5!?, is there anything wrong with 8...Be7 9. Bxe7 Qxe7!


10.c4 could be a problem

You're right, that looks very strong.
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Matemax
God Member
*****
Offline


Chesspub gives you strength!

Posts: 1302
Joined: 11/04/07
Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #17 - 01/22/08 at 18:38:13
Post Tools
Quote:
regarding 8. Bg5!?, is there anything wrong with 8...Be7 9. Bxe7 Qxe7!


10.c4 could be a problem

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GMTonyKosten
YaBB Administrator
*****
Offline


Mr Dynamic?

Posts: 3100
Location: Clermont-Ferrand
Joined: 12/19/02
Gender: Male
Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #16 - 01/22/08 at 17:20:04
Post Tools
Matemax wrote on 12/27/07 at 08:29:54:
In the game analyses to Mate-Pinter they give the following moves:
15.c3 f5 16.Be3 g6 (Ke7?! was played in the game) 17.Nd2 Kc8 18.f3 exf3 19.Nxf3 b5 20.Bc2 Re8 21.Bd4 Bd5 with equality:

Just one point: White can play 19. Bd4 before capturing on f3 as then the black rook can't go to e8 and after, say, 18. f3 exf3 19. Bd4 Rd8 20. Nxf3 b5 21. Bc2 Bd5 there is no threat of ...Re2 to worry about, so White can simply play the immediate 22. Kg3, gaining a tempo should Black play 22...Re8.
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
GMTonyKosten
YaBB Administrator
*****
Offline


Mr Dynamic?

Posts: 3100
Location: Clermont-Ferrand
Joined: 12/19/02
Gender: Male
Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #15 - 01/22/08 at 17:00:03
Post Tools
Firstly, regarding 8. Bg5!?, is there anything wrong with 8...Be7 9. Bxe7 Qxe7! 10. Nxd4 O-O 11. Bxc6 bxc6 12. f3 c5 13. Nc6 Qf6! 14. Qxd5 Bb7 - Black is ahead in development, and looks at least equal?
In the mainline, I like the idea (from Markovich) of keeping the bishop pair on the board by 15.c3 f5 16.Be3 g6 17.Nd2 Kc8 18. Bd1 as White has all the chances with zero risk.
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10512
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #14 - 01/19/08 at 20:25:34
Post Tools
Not according to my sources (Euwe and Pachman). After 4.0-0 Nxe4 5.d4 exd4 6.Re1 d5 the latter recommends the extra option 7.Qxd4 +- but I don't find that too convincing.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2050
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #13 - 01/19/08 at 14:44:22
Post Tools
Pop Quiz:

Does playing the Riga without a6 change things significantly, and if so how so?

Topster Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
drkodos
God Member
*****
Offline


I see....stars.

Posts: 778
Location: Jupiter, and beyond
Joined: 03/29/07
Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #12 - 01/17/08 at 18:29:07
Post Tools
In the YB column the authors state: "With the new defensive ideas presented here, the endgame doesn't seem to promise White much."  And they are correct, for they basically neglected to show White's most critical moves.  They do not mention it in their notes, but they include it in game Nispeanu-Dumittrache, the key area of neglect being found in the old "Capablanca line" at white move #17:

15. Be3 f5
16. Nc3 Ke7
17. Bb3  

Which is very strong for white to play the Bishop move BEFORE playing g4.  This forces Black King to a white square to avoid the bone-crunching, piece activating move N check on d5.

From my own games (as Black) I have not been able to hold this position against humans or computers and have found it to be much easier to win as white.  

17. .... Kf7  (perhaps Bxb3 should be played here and this is the first place to look for ways to improve Black's (slim) chances.)

18. Bxe6  Kxe6  
19. g4  g6 (?!)

Another move where Black needs find something better, but what are the alternmatives, taking on g4?.  Also, here White has options to play the B to f4 forcing Black's rook passively defend the c pawn.  Once those White minor pieces get into play, they are stronger than the rook.  

It is here in the Nispeanu game that the authors suggest:

18.  ...  fg4
19 Ne4  Bb3
20. ab   b6
21. Ra4 h5
22. Rc4 c5
23. b4   cb
24. Bb6 a5
and claim equality.

First off, move 22, white can improve with 22 Nc3.  Second, their resulting claim of equality seems hard to prove after White plays 25. Kg3.  I just do not see it, nor can I hold this position against players of equal strength.  The fact that White has THREE pieces against Black's TWO means that White can bring more fire-power to bear on weaknesses and at some point Black cannot mathematically defend.


Another critical idea for white is to not exchange the g pawn, but instead push it to g5 as shown in the recent J. Benjamin column:

http://main.uschess.org/content/view/8112/341/

Why open the file for the Black rook?  Better is to get the White King active in the center before making any exchanges that could leave his majesty stuck on the h-file if that rook gets to g8.

And lastly, as stated above, 8.Bg5 is a most promising line for white, and is somewhat annoying because it is not at all what Black has in mind when (s)he plays the Riga.  


Caveat: Despite all this, I play the Riga regularly as Black and have excellent results with it but I believe it is only because I am taking advantage of White's ingnorance of how to maintain their winning chances/advantage.  I have no doubt that some improvements can be found for both sides and I think this opening can remain "playable" and very fun, but I do not think it will ever be proved to be "safe" or "solid" or lead to equality.

  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #11 - 12/27/07 at 16:10:32
Post Tools
Matemax wrote on 12/27/07 at 08:29:54:
Its hard to believe white has serious winning chances here - I would feel very comfortable with black


Of course White has winning chances.  For one thing, ultimately, he can try to get in amongst Black's kingside pawns, e.g. Kg3-f4.  I suppose I would start out with 22.Bd3.

Also, White is under no obligation to play 18.f3. Perhaps he can precede this with 18.Bd1. Slow perhaps, but what is time in the ending? 

He is under no obligation to play 16.c3, for that matter; it is merely that I think this move is good.  Black has a great deal to prove in this ending.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Matemax
God Member
*****
Offline


Chesspub gives you strength!

Posts: 1302
Joined: 11/04/07
Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #10 - 12/27/07 at 08:29:54
Post Tools
Quote:
To that end, Tarrasch's 15.c3 seems like a good move from the tabiya.  Talsma and Boll then advocate 15...f5 16.Be3 (they don't mention 16.Bg5, which is also strong) 16..g6 17.Nd2 Kc8 18.f3 b5 (18...exf3!?)19.Bc2 exf3 20.Nxf3 Re8 "followed by ...Kb7, with equality."

In the game analyses to Mate-Pinter they give the following moves:
15.c3 f5 16.Be3 g6 (Ke7?! was played in the game) 17.Nd2 Kc8 18.f3 exf3 19.Nxf3 b5 20.Bc2 Re8 21.Bd4 Bd5 with equality:



Its hard to believe white has serious winning chances here - I would feel very comfortable with black

Playing 16.Bg5 doesnt change much - it just looks like a useless check, as black will play Kc8 anyway. Wink

I think the endgame is overestimated for white and tends to equality - I think 8.Bg5 ist much more a threat to blacks ambitions - Here the recommendations of Boll/Talsma are probably on very thin ice. At last dont forget 8.c4.

TO ADD (!):

I took some time to analyse 8.Bg5 (game Avrum-Medveski or may I say Comp1-Comp2 with support? Wink) and think the RIGAER is BUSTED! - The refutation starts with 16.Re1 (instead of 16.Bh6 as played in the game) - I am also a bit shocked that Boll/Talsma dont give anything to 16.Re1  Shocked - they also only follow the comp-lines. Somehow we have a connection to the discussion "OTB vs CORR": http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1197833426 - and this practical example does not favour the corr players  Cry

You dont believe me? Well you dont have to - but give 16.Re1 yourself a try - I have no problem posting my analysis, if wanted Wink
« Last Edit: 12/27/07 at 11:22:41 by Matemax »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo