ChessPub Forum - Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez

NeverGiveUp Full Member Offline Never despair in a lost position Posts: 221 Joined: 11/18/09	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #54 - 04/15/12 at 06:51:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	and worse - there is 16.Re1!! fg5 17.Kg1! when black is just lost. White's attack is too strong. Not published in NIC, but published in this forum.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #53 - 04/15/12 at 00:23:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks.

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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #52 - 04/14/12 at 16:35:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	Matemax in the Yearbook: 25. Qe7 Qe6 26. Qc7 Kf6 27. Qf4 Rg8 28. g4 with a decisive advantage.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #51 - 04/14/12 at 14:43:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	Matemax wrote on 01/23/08 at 11:51:29: 19.Qh5 a) 19...Qg6 20.Bd5 (white remains at least a pawn up with a better position) b) 19...Kf6 20.Kg1! - and I hope I made this move work, there are many branches ... I got in contact with NIC about 2 weeks ago and they are interested to bring it in the "forum" of YB 86 (even with a photograph of me )). Until now they did not come up with additional questions to the analysis but promised me to have a critical look. Although it means running two concurrent Riga threads, I thought it best to post here a question I have about Matemax's analysis. I'm in Maryland right now and don't have access to my NIC Yearbooks. So after 19.Qh5+ Kf6 20.Kg1, would someone please explain White's winning procedure after 20...h6? I looked at 21.Rf1+ Bf5 22.Bxa8 Rxa8 23.Qxh6+ Ke5 24.Qxg5 Qg6 25.Qf4+ Ke6 26.Qxc7 Rg8 27.g3 Qg5 after which it appears that, in view of his kingside color weakness, White's game will be extremely difficult to win. I suppose I am missing something, but I would like to know what.

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NeverGiveUp Full Member Offline Never despair in a lost position Posts: 221 Joined: 11/18/09	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #50 - 11/18/09 at 13:10:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	The verdict of the riga now really hangs on Matemax' brilliant analysis. It goes very deep and one may wonder how relevant it is for a practical game ... but then it's not nice to play a variation that is busted. The endgame is not much for white and in the long term he may be in serious risk of losing. My results with it have been excellent. Sufficient replies against white's major tries here have been given in YB85. Same for 8.c4 which isn't much after 8. ... dc3 9.Nc3 Bb4 and black is OK. So it has to be 8.Bg5 - a move hardly ever played! (I never had it in a game) The whole analysis of Matemax is pretty forced so all depends on the endgame after 8.Bg5 f6 9.Nd4 Bc5 10.Nc6 Bf2 11.Kf1 Qd7 12.Nc3 bc6 13.Ne4 Be1 14.Nf6 gf6 15.Qh5 Kf8 16.Re1!! fg5 17.Qh6 Kf7 18.Bc6 Qd6 19.Qh5 Qg6 20.Bd5 Be6 21.Qf3 Qf6 22.Qf6 Kf6 23.Re6 Kf5 24.g4 Kg4 25.Ba8 Ra8 26.Rh6. If any white would ever get this far, do we really believe this rook endgame would be lost for black?! I don't. Black's king is very well placed (strongly supporing any future K-size past pawn[s]) he only needs to activate his rook ... so there goes ... 26. ... Rf8+ 29.Ke2 (29.Kg2 Rd8=) Re8+ 30.Kd3 Re7 31.a4 Rf7! threatening Rf3-h3 with an about equal position. (32.Ra6 h5 or 32. ... Rf3+-h3 both about equal) The ending is admittely complex but there are loads of rook endings worse than this one which are drawn. Which places the riga right back in the set of playable lines!


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Matemax God Member Offline Chesspub gives you strength! Posts: 1302 Joined: 11/04/07	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #49 - 05/08/08 at 18:59:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: So, it looks like the Spanish game is done for, then. Dear me, what to do? Play it again, Sam?


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #48 - 05/08/08 at 17:30:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	Matemax wrote on 05/08/08 at 06:38:11: Quote: White is simply better in the endgame with Tarrasch's 15.c3, and probably also in other endgames. The endgame may be slightly better for White - but Black playing Riga usually knows better what he is doing (who wants to prepare Riga endgame with White if there are Marshalls and Co around ?) and therefore I would say the chances are equal. So, it looks like the Spanish game is done for, then. Dear me, what to do?

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Matemax God Member Offline Chesspub gives you strength! Posts: 1302 Joined: 11/04/07	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #47 - 05/08/08 at 06:38:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: White is simply better in the endgame with Tarrasch's 15.c3, and probably also in other endgames. The endgame may be slightly better for White - but Black playing Riga usually knows better what he is doing (who wants to prepare Riga endgame with White if there are Marshalls and Co around ?) and therefore I would say the chances are equal. 8.Bg5 is an attempt of a direct refutation - probably not suitable for OTB cause of his complexity. OTB I think 8.c4 is an annoying move for Black.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #46 - 05/07/08 at 17:35:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	CheckMate wrote on 05/07/08 at 15:55:55: I see many references here to 8. Bg6 Be7 9. Bxe7 Qxe7 10. c4! +- That's true! However many Ruy Lopez books claims that black equalizes with Krause's 9 ... Kxe7! White is simply better in the endgame with Tarrasch's 15.c3, and probably also in other endgames. It's not such difficult chess; at best Black can grovel for a long time and draw. It's hard for me to understand why anyone would want to play into that. In part I think many here simply overestimate the rook and pawns versus the two minor pieces. I mean, think about it. If the Riga were adequate, the Spanish would be a big bust. How likely is that?
	« Last Edit: 05/07/08 at 23:53:28 by Markovich »
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CheckMate Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 168 Location: Uppsala Joined: 07/18/06 Gender:	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #45 - 05/07/08 at 15:55:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	I see many references here to 8. Bg6 Be7 9. Bxe7 Qxe7 10. c4! +- That's true! However many Ruy Lopez books claims that black equalizes with Krause's 9 ... Kxe7!


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Matemax God Member Offline Chesspub gives you strength! Posts: 1302 Joined: 11/04/07	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #44 - 04/26/08 at 16:15:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	JEH wrote on 04/26/08 at 15:12:17: Patzel wrote on 04/26/08 at 11:40:07: I1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Nxe4 6. d4 exd4 7. Re1 d5 8. Bg5! f6 (Be7!? 89.Bxe7 Qxe7 10.c4! ) 9.Nxd4 Bc5 (Bd7 10.Nc3!) 10.Nxc6 Bxf2 11.Kf1! Qd7 12.Nc3! How about 12. ...0-0 e.g. 13. Nxd5 Kh8 14. Rxe5 fxg5, with an infinity symbol? Possible continuation is 15. Ne5 Qd6 16. Bb3 Bc5+ 17. Ke1 Bf5. and the White King isn't looking too safe. I suggest to have a look at 13.Re4 de4 and now either 14.Qd7 or 14.Bf4


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JEH God Member Offline "Football is like Chess, only without the dice." Posts: 1456 Location: Reading Joined: 09/22/05 Gender:	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #43 - 04/26/08 at 15:12:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	Patzel wrote on 04/26/08 at 11:40:07: I1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Nxe4 6. d4 exd4 7. Re1 d5 8. Bg5! f6 (Be7!? 89.Bxe7 Qxe7 10.c4! ) 9.Nxd4 Bc5 (Bd7 10.Nc3!) 10.Nxc6 Bxf2 11.Kf1! Qd7 12.Nc3! How about 12. ...0-0 e.g. 13. Nxd5 Kh8 14. Rxe5 fxg5, with an infinity symbol? Possible continuation is 15. Ne5 Qd6 16. Bb3 Bc5+ 17. Ke1 Bf5. and the White King isn't looking too safe.

	Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Patzel YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 9 Location: Recklinghausen, Germany Joined: 04/24/08 Gender:	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #42 - 04/26/08 at 11:40:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think the Riga Variation isn´t playable, because of 8.Bg5! : 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Nxe4 6. d4 exd4 7. Re1 d5 8. Bg5! f6 (Be7!? 89.Bxe7 Qxe7 10.c4! ) 9.Nxd4 Bc5 (Bd7 10.Nc3!) 10.Nxc6 Bxf2 11.Kf1! Qd7 12.Nc3! bxc6 13.Nxe4 Bxe1 14.Nxf6+ gxf6 15.Qh5 Kf8 16.Re1! fxg5 (Qf5+ 17.Kg1 Qg6 18.Qe2) 17.Qh6+ Kf7 18.Bxc6 Qd6 (Qf5+ 19.Kg1 Be6 20.Rf1) 19.Qh5+ Qg6 20.Bxd5+ Be6 21.Qf3+ Qf6 22.Qxf6+ Kxf6 23.Rxe6+ Kf5 24.g4+ Kxg4 25.Bxa8 Rxa8 26.Rh6 This endgame should be winning for White. For example: 26...Rf8+ 27.Ke2 Rf7 28.Rxa6 h5 29.Ra3 Re7+ 30.Kf2 Rf7+ 31.Kg2 +- I analyse the rook endgame a bit and White should win without any problems with the queenside passed pawn So I wouldn´t play the Riga Varíation, because of Bg5! and I think the main variation is bettert for White, too, because of the two peaces.


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Anonymous Ex Member	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #41 - 04/15/08 at 20:45:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	CheckMate wrote on 04/14/08 at 14:31:01: @ Anonymous: Mr Khalifman does analyze the Riga endgame. It's interesting that he almost considers it playable for Black with the best lines leading to a small advantage for White (doesn't he come to the same conclusion about every line in the Ruy Lopez?). @ TopNotch: While I agree with you in principle I feel some sympathy towards our anonymous "bad guy". Such small details as how to face the Riga variation and other offbeat lines may influence my decision to buy the book in the first place. Let's say that I would buy the book if he treats 8. Bg5 against the Riga but not if he only treats the endgame variation. Personally I never buy a book without knowing exactly what it contains. I invariably looks through the book at the book shop or discuss it with a friend who also have it before I buy anything. Such an attitude is essential these days with so much trash out on the market. A related question is: If I would to review a book how much of the content is I allowed to expose without infringing copyright law? I think the reader deserves to know some about what theoretical lines are covered. For instance if an important line is missing it's my responsibility as a reviewer to report this fact. The published list of content is usually too coarse grained to be really useful. Good book reviews are unfortunately very rare. Thank you CheckMate for sticking up for me and taking my side but i do not like your comment that labels me as a "bad boy"!


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CheckMate Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 168 Location: Uppsala Joined: 07/18/06 Gender:	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #40 - 04/14/08 at 14:31:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	@ Anonymous: Mr Khalifman does analyze the Riga endgame. It's interesting that he almost considers it playable for Black with the best lines leading to a small advantage for White (doesn't he come to the same conclusion about every line in the Ruy Lopez?). @ TopNotch: While I agree with you in principle I feel some sympathy towards our anonymous "bad guy". Such small details as how to face the Riga variation and other offbeat lines may influence my decision to buy the book in the first place. Let's say that I would buy the book if he treats 8. Bg5 against the Riga but not if he only treats the endgame variation. Personally I never buy a book without knowing exactly what it contains. I invariably looks through the book at the book shop or discuss it with a friend who also have it before I buy anything. Such an attitude is essential these days with so much trash out on the market. A related question is: If I would to review a book how much of the content is I allowed to expose without infringing copyright law? I think the reader deserves to know some about what theoretical lines are covered. For instance if an important line is missing it's my responsibility as a reviewer to report this fact. The published list of content is usually too coarse grained to be really useful. Good book reviews are unfortunately very rare.


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drkodos God Member Offline I see....stars. Posts: 778 Location: Jupiter, and beyond Joined: 03/29/07	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #39 - 04/12/08 at 23:48:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	TopNotch wrote on 04/12/08 at 23:21:10: 8...f6 is well met by 9.Nxd4 with complications that seem to favor White. Yes, they do SEEM to favor white, but 9. ...Bc5 and Black still has a playable game. Playable. I do not see any forced win for White, and in fact have won from this position as Black. I am not arguing it would stand up to the scrutiny of a 20 day look, only that it is indeed playable OTB and often sets white problems they are not expecting (trying to remember that >95% of all Chessplayers are not GM's and do not posess encyclopaedic memories of all these positions and their supposed refutations). Matemax analysis is excellent, and I look forward to seeing more of it when the YB finally swims across the pond to me, but I am not fully convinced that the Riga is on death watch. All I know (from anecdotal evidence) is that I've been using it more and more and even many masters are not able to fully navigate it on the fly without suffering a few nicks or a black eye. If you insist on putting everything under the microscope of the very best CC players in the world, that's cool, but that ain't the world in which I am currently living. With due respect, ~ drkodos.

	I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #38 - 04/12/08 at 23:21:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	drkodos wrote on 04/12/08 at 14:24:12: [quote author=TopNotch link=1198625060/30#36 date=1208009695 Perhaps you could have shown her: 8. Bg5!? Be7 9. Bxe7 Qxe7 10. c4 with an excellent position for White as discussed earlier in this thread. It appears to me that 8. Bg5!? is quite an exciting alternative to the Riga endgame, that offers White dangerous attacking chances. In fact this 8.Bg5!? line would have made a worthy addition to the new Dangerous Weapons: 1.e4 e5 book, but alas one can't have everything. Toppy Quote: Black needs to try f6 instead of Be7 in that position. Matemax left some compelling clues on page one of this thread as to why the Riga is in trouble and after some investigation of my own I tend to agree with him. 8...f6 is well met by 9.Nxd4with complications that seem to favor White. And after the surprisingly rare 8.c4!? also mentioned by Matemax, its again unclear how Black equalises. My impression is if the Riga were ever to become fashionable then these little known gems would quickly become common knowledge and the Riga would again quickly fade into obscurity. So long as the Riga remains a rare guest in international competition it can retain its usefulness as an effective surprise weapon. On the flip side however, I can hardly wait for someone to, ahem, surprise me with it. Topalot
	« Last Edit: 04/13/08 at 02:51:13 by TopNotch »
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drkodos God Member Offline I see....stars. Posts: 778 Location: Jupiter, and beyond Joined: 03/29/07	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #37 - 04/12/08 at 14:24:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	TopNotch wrote on 04/12/08 at 14:14:55: 8. Bg5!?[/highlight] Be7 9. Bxe7 Qxe7 10. c4 with an excellent position for White as discussed earlier in this thread. It appears to me that 8. Bg5!? is quite an exciting alternative to the Riga endgame, that offers White dangerous attacking chances. In fact this 8.Bg5!? line would have made a worthy addition to the new Dangerous Weapons: 1.e4 e5 book, but alas one can't have everything. Toppy Black needs to try f6 instead of Be7 in that position.

	I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #36 - 04/12/08 at 14:14:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: TopNotch, GM Tony Kosten answered my questions that I had about the Dangerous Weapons book. If the boss of Chesspublishing.com answers my questions, than I think it is alright to ask questions like this! Stop getting on my case for asking questions like this! The reason I asked what does Alexander Khalifman recommend against the Riga Variation in his book Opening for White According to Anand is to see if we could come to a final verdict on the Riga Variation and find out if it is really better for white like most people think it is because several sources hint that it might be underrated for black. Your post, getting on me for asking these questions, is even stupider than me asking these questions! You abuse the privelege Anon, and must learn that sometimes if you want the milk you have to buy the cow. John Hall wrote on 04/11/08 at 14:59:31: Story from an OTB club game I played last night. My opponent is a shade over 2200. A quite young junior girl- very promising player- who is currently the #3 female player in my country. Anways the complete game was: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. 0-0 Nxe4 6. d4 exd4 7. Re1 d5 8. Nxd4 Bd6 9. Nxc6 Bxh2+ 10. Kxh2 Qh4+ 11. Kg1 Qxf2+ 1/2 - 1/2 Please no flames- I know this post does not contribute theoretically to the theory of the Riga!!! The funny thing was she asked me to show her the main line after the game- so I showed her to the starting point of the endgame- and then showed a few ideas. She looked thoroughly un-impressed. "Is there anything else???" She asked disappointedly!! Perhaps you could have shown her: 8. Bg5!? Be7 9. Bxe7 Qxe7 10. c4 with an excellent position for White as discussed earlier in this thread. It appears to me that 8. Bg5!? is quite an exciting alternative to the Riga endgame, that offers White dangerous attacking chances. In fact this 8.Bg5!? line would have made a worthy addition to the new Dangerous Weapons: 1.e4 e5 book, but alas one can't have everything. Toppy

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #35 - 04/11/08 at 20:38:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: TopNotch, GM Tony Kosten answered my questions that I had about the Dangerous Weapons book. If the boss of Chesspublishing.com answers my questions, than I think it is alright to ask questions like this! Maybe, maybe not. I am pretty sure though you won't stop if GM Kosten expresses his disapproval. Anyhow, if it's OK for you to ask questions like this it is OK for us to point at your laziness and suggest you to buy these works. This site is a matter of taking and giving (analysis). You are only aware of the first half. So I have decided a few months ago not to answer questions like this anymore and strongly advise Bibs and TN to do the same. I haven't read often enough "can anybody please answer my questions" lately.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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drkodos God Member Offline I see....stars. Posts: 778 Location: Jupiter, and beyond Joined: 03/29/07	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #34 - 04/11/08 at 16:21:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	John Hall wrote on 04/11/08 at 14:59:31: 10. Kxh2 Qh4+ 11. Kg1 Qxf2+ 1/2 - 1/2 Please no flames- I know this post does not contribute theoretically to the theory of the Riga!!! This is one downside to the variation that White can take a forced draw very early in this variation. johnhall: I like your ideas in your longer post where you detail some plans for black in these endgames, and I agree that with some decent study, the endgame does hold some promise for black to play for some winning chances. A recent OTB Riga game of mine vs opponent 2300+ saw him play 10. Kh1 Qh4 11. Rxe5+ dxe 12. Qd8+ Qxd8 13. Nxd8 Kxd8 14.Kxh2 Be6 15. Be3 f5 16. Nc3 Ke7 17. g4 g6 18.gxf5 gxf5 and then a new move I have not seen previously 19. Rd1 Black cannot yet contest the d file so I played 19. ...Kf7 20. Ne2 Rad8 and here I think Black has solved most of the serious issues and has good winning chances along the line of reasoning expressed in the previous post by johnhall. In these Capablanca "endgame" lines, I think White needs to find a better plan.

	I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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John Hall YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 44 Joined: 01/23/08	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #33 - 04/11/08 at 14:59:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	Story from an OTB club game I played last night. My opponent is a shade over 2200. A quite young junior girl- very promising player- who is currently the #3 female player in my country. Anways the complete game was: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. 0-0 Nxe4 6. d4 exd4 7. Re1 d5 8. Nxd4 Bd6 9. Nxc6 Bxh2+ 10. Kxh2 Qh4+ 11. Kg1 Qxf2+ 1/2 - 1/2 Please no flames- I know this post does not contribute theoretically to the theory of the Riga!!! The funny thing was she asked me to show her the main line after the game- so I showed her to the starting point of the endgame- and then showed a few ideas. She looked thoroughly un-impressed. "Is there anything else???" She asked disappointedly... !


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Bibs God Member Offline Posts: 2345 Joined: 10/24/06	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #32 - 04/11/08 at 06:55:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	Anonymous Can you really not see a problem? Honestly? Do you request expensive presents for Christmas, but have no intention of reciprocating in the smallest, cheapest way? Just wondering if it was a behavioural trait resulting from some form of personality dysfunction. And no, TN appears a sensible sort, a worthy contributor and from what one can judge herein, quite a capable player. You, however, are merely an irritant. Do behave. To take things forward, ask for less book-chunk quoting and you will get more favourable responses. Best, Bibs
	« Last Edit: 04/11/08 at 09:27:46 by Bibs »

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Anonymous Ex Member	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #31 - 04/11/08 at 05:26:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	TopNotch, GM Tony Kosten answered my questions that I had about the Dangerous Weapons book. If the boss of Chesspublishing.com answers my questions, than I think it is alright to ask questions like this! Stop getting on my case for asking questions like this! The reason I asked what does Alexander Khalifman recommend against the Riga Variation in his book Opening for White According to Anand is to see if we could come to a final verdict on the Riga Variation and find out if it is really better for white like most people think it is because several sources hint that it might be underrated for black. Your post, getting on me for asking these questions, is even stupider than me asking these questions!


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #30 - 04/11/08 at 00:30:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/30/08 at 00:10:54: [quote author=johnhall link=1198625060/15#27 date=1201631593] Some books (I believe Flear's on the Open Lopez?!) only give up until 14. Kxh2 and declare that white is known to be better in this position. So I guess that was the extent of the prep that I had to face! No, Glenn Flear in his book Open Ruy Lopez feels that the position after 14 Kxh2 is ok for black and that the Riga Variation as a whole is ok for black. How does Alexander Khalifman try to refute the Riga Variation in his book, Opening for White According to Anand volume 2? How does he try to refute it? well before we answer that question lets ponder another. I was just wondering whether anyone else finds this shameless repeated pandering for published analysis not only a bit annoying, but also more than a bit vulgar not to mention disrespectful to the authors of these works who gave of their time and energy. Ok, one can argue that we discuss, dissect, analyse and critique books and their contents here all the time. However there is a genuine sense that we do so in the interest of enhancing and adding value to these published works as well as each others understanding of them. In your case however, the impression is created that you would enjoy nothing more than if we could scan entire books, and post them on the forum for you to download for free. Possibly I have misjudged and criticised you too harshly, so lets examine a small sample of your posts which I culled from a quick search shall we: 1) Chess Publishing Openings / d-Pawn Specials / Re: Opening for Black According to Karpov What does Alexander Khalifman recommend against the London System in his book Opening for Black According to Karpov? (Just tell me! I don't want any sarcastic, stupid, or mean responses) . 2) Chess Publishing Openings / 1. e4 e5 / Re: Dangerous Weapons 1.e4 e5 In the chapter on Calming the Romantics, after 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Bc5 4 c3 Nf6 5 d4 exd4 6 cxd4 Bb4+ 7 Bd2 Nxe4 8 Bxb4 Nxb4 9 Bxf7 + Kxf7 10 Qb3, Does Gleen Flear recommend 10...d5, 10...Kf8, or does he analyze both moves? Also, how does he bring the Dangerous Weapons idea to the Evan's Gambit? Also, what is the chapter on the Max Lange Gambit, 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Bc5 4 0-0 Nf6 5 d4 Bxd4, like? Do they think white can get an edge in this line? 3) Chess Publishing Openings / 1. e4 e5 / Re: Dangerous Weapons 1.e4 e5 on: 03/08/08 at 19:46:38 After 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Qxd4 Nc6 4.Qe3 Nf6 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 O-O 7.O-O-O Re8 8.Qg3 Rxe4 9.a3, what does IM Andrew Greet recommend against the move 9...Bd6? This move is recommended by Larry Kaufman in his book The Chess Advantage in Black and White. Also, after 1 e4 e5 2 d4 exd4 3 Qxd4 Nc6 4 Qe3 Nf6 5 Nc3 Be7 6 Bc4 0-0 7 Bd2 d6, what does IM Andrew Greet recommend? 4) Flank Openings / Re: A Strategic Opening Repertoire For White, 2nd ed on: 03/07/08 at 22:44:56 After 1 Nf3 d5 2 c4 c6 3 g3, what does the book recommend against 3...Bg4 and 3...Bf5. Also, after 3...Nf6 4 Bg2 what does the book recommend against 4...dxc4, 4...Bg4, and 4...Bf5? 5) Chess Publishing Openings / d-Pawn Specials / How to Succeed in the Queen's Pawn Openings on: 11/21/07 at 03:08:20 Started by Anonymous \| Post by Anonymous What do John Watson and Eric Schiller recommend against the accelerated London System, 1 d4 d5 2 Bf4, in their book How to Succeed in the Queen's Pawn Openings? 6) Chess Publishing Openings / Flank Openings / Re: A Strategic Opening Repertoire For White, 2nd ed on: 03/07/08 After 1 Nf3 d5 2 c4 c6 3 g3, what does the book recommend against 3...Bg4 and 3...Bf5. Also, after 3...Nf6 4 Bg2 what does the book recommend against 4...dxc4, 4...Bg4, and 4...Bf5? 7) Chess Publishing Openings / Flank Openings / 1 Nc3 Dunst Opening on: 01/01/08 at 21:47:01 Started by Anonymous \| Post by Anonymous After 1 Nc3 Nf6, What does Bill Wall recommend in his his book, 1 Nc3 Dunst Opening? 8) Chess Publishing Openings / Flank Openings / Re: 1 Nc3 on: 12/22/07 at 00:22:18 Started by Anonymous \| Post by Anonymous After 1 Nc3 d5 2 e4, what does Gary Lane recommend in his book? 9) Chess Publishing Openings / 1. e4 e5 / Re: Opening for White according to Anand volume 2 on: 11/22/07 at 03:00:54 Started by Anonymous \| Post by Anonymous After 9 Nbd2 in the Open Variation, what does Khalifman recommend agaisnt 9...Be7, 9...Nc5 10 c3 Nxb3, and 9...Nc5 10 c3 d4 11 Ng5 Bd5 and Qxg5. After 12 Nbd2 in the Keres Variation, what does Khalifman recommend agaisnt 12...exd4 13 cxd4 Nc6? 10) Chess Publishing Openings / 1. e4 e5 / Re: Italian Game question on: 02/29/08 at 16:35:19 Started by Anonymous \| Post by Anonymous The new book Dangerous Weapons: 1 e4 e5 covers both 5...Bxd4 and 5...exd4. If anyone has the book, can you tell us what they think about this line and what move they recommend black should play? Need I say more, and ohh my look at that, we are out of time and I didn't even get to answer your question as promised. That's a real bummer, but on the bright side although there are some things money can't buy, for everthing else there is Mastercard. Topper

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Anonymous Ex Member	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #29 - 04/10/08 at 22:01:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/30/08 at 00:10:54: [quote author=johnhall link=1198625060/15#27 date=1201631593] Some books (I believe Flear's on the Open Lopez?!) only give up until 14. Kxh2 and declare that white is known to be better in this position. So I guess that was the extent of the prep that I had to face! No, Glenn Flear in his book Open Ruy Lopez feels that the position after 14 Kxh2 is ok for black and that the Riga Variation as a whole is ok for black. How does Alexander Khalifman try to refute the Riga Variation in his book, Opening for White According to Anand volume 2?


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GMTonyKosten YaBB Administrator Online Mr Dynamic? Posts: 3207 Location: Clermont-Ferrand Joined: 12/19/02 Gender:	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #28 - 01/30/08 at 00:10:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	John Hall wrote on 01/29/08 at 18:33:13: Some books (I believe Flear's on the Open Lopez?!) only give up until 14. Kxh2 and declare that white is known to be better in this position. So I guess that was the extent of the prep that I had to face! Yes, I am sure that some books do stop here, but to be fair to Glenn he gives 15 Be3 and 16 Nd2 and a complete game where Black gets horribly crushed (but had a big improvement at some point). Maybe 15 Nd2 is not so bad, but it is certainly a lot worse, as White has difficulty playing g4 or f3, and cannot easily develop his c1-bishop.


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John Hall YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 44 Joined: 01/23/08	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #27 - 01/29/08 at 18:33:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/29/08 at 18:05:25: John Hall wrote on 01/29/08 at 16:57:58: He started thinking on move 15 ... And he immediately blundered! 15 Nd2 looks like a terrible move to me, probably a 'novelty'. Was this really preparation? haha- fair enough!! From a theoretical perspective and at an international level or corr game, it's a blunder. But for a club game at fairly quick time controls for two players in the 2100's I probably wouldn't call it a blunder! Anyways, I'm sure 15. Nd2 was not a part of the "prep"- because he took a good think on that move. I believe he saw that I play the Riga sometimes, and looked up the line. Some books (I believe Flear's on the Open Lopez?!) only give up until 14. Kxh2 and declare that white is known to be better in this position. So I guess that was the extent of the prep that I had to face! 15. Nd2 and the bishop maneuvres put black under less pressure than he would be by better play- but the character of the position was still fairly typical for the endgame.


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GMTonyKosten YaBB Administrator Online Mr Dynamic? Posts: 3207 Location: Clermont-Ferrand Joined: 12/19/02 Gender:	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #26 - 01/29/08 at 18:05:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	John Hall wrote on 01/29/08 at 16:57:58: He started thinking on move 15 ... And he immediately blundered! 15 Nd2 looks like a terrible move to me, probably a 'novelty'. Was this really preparation?


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John Hall YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 44 Joined: 01/23/08	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #25 - 01/29/08 at 16:57:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	My experiences with the Riga have been extremely positive. My rating is 2115. I have played the Riga 5 times at slow time controls in the last year and a half with the following results: Opp. Rating Result 2210 Win 2005 Win 2275 (FM) Draw 2380 (IM) Win 2100 Win I believe the endgame line holds chances for black if he is better prepared (and surely he will be!). You need to bear in mind the guidelines for Rook vs 2 minor piece endgames. You want to trade rooks and light squared bishops if you can. The fact that white cant really trade rooks causes him positional difficulties. Black can occupy the d-file. Although there are no points of penetration at the beginning, this is a long term headache for white. Indeed, contrary to popular opinion, I believe the ending may be easier for black to play. White's plan is usually to undermine black's k-side pawns with g4 and f3 strikes. These are effective, but they must be timed properly- or black will just get dangerous passed pawns. But even if implemented expertly, it is hard for white to win. Even if he manages to win outright the 2 remaining black pawns on the k-side, it means he has to try to win with his q-side pawns- but black's king will be much closer to the action there (white's king will be needed to win the pawns on the k-side)- so black has great drawing chances just by jamming his pawns forward on the q-side and trying to infiltrate with his king - or trade off the remaining pawns. Here is a game I played fairly recently at Game/90 time control OTB. My opponent had a very similar rating to me. I believe this game shows that black has good chances in the endgame OTB at strong club level: White: Opponent (2100) Black: Me (2115) 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. 0-0 Nxe4 6. d4 exd4 7. Re1 d5 I have a database game with the Riga var. (The game vs the IM) When he played Re1 instantly, I sensed that I was playing into his preparation. 8. Nxd4 Bd6 9. Nxc6 Bxh2+ 10. Kh1 Qh4 11. Rxe4+ dxe4 12. Qd8+ Qxd8 13. Nxd8+ Kxd8 14. Kxh2 Be6 15. Nd2 f5 He started thinking on move 15- and I really was hoping he'd fall into the "trap" (15. Nc3?? c5 -/+) 16. c3 Ke7 I dont have as much practice with the "c3" idea. A lot of the same themes still apply of course- but with the light squared bishops still on, it's too risky (IMO) to play the "King on the q-side" plan of ...b5, ...Kc8, ...Kb7. So I decided to move my king over to support my k-side pawns instead. Normally, I like to put my king on b7 though. 17. Nf1 Kf7 I had to be careful. I wanted to occupy the d-file and get my k-side pawns mobile- but I had to watch out for creating weaknesses by advancing too quickly. I also didn't want his dark squared bishop to settle in a dominating position. 18. Bc2 Rad8 I think he should have played 18. Bf4- to make my life more difficult. I was planning 18 ... Rac8 followed by 19 ...Rhd8. But the way he played it, I was able to defend the c-pawn at less of an inconvenience. 19. Bf4 Rd7 20. Ba4 c6 21. Be3 Rg8 22. Bc2 g5 White's play over the last 5 moves seems a little planless. The Ba4-c2-a4-c2 and Bc1-f4-e3 maneauvres don't make a strong impression. I think he was trying to probe my position for weaknesses. I think Black has equalized here, and has the easier position to play- there is an active plan of moving the k-side pawn mass forward. It's hard to suggest an active plan for white. He decides to shoot his a pawn forward- I guess trying to fix my structure... 23. a4 h6 24. a5 Re8 25. Rd1 Rxd1 White really can't trade rooks in this endgame. I think black is slightly better positionally now. It's a small edge- but now the remaining rook has a better chance to infiltrate and dominate! I think white should have proceeded passively instead. 26. Bxd1 Kg6 27. Bc2 Bc4 28. Kg1 Bd3 29. Bxd3 exd3 30. g3 Re4 Now black is surely better. Not winning yet, but I was enjoying my position. 31. f4 Ra4 32. b4 Ra3 33. fxg5 hxg5 34. Bd2 f4 35. gxf4 gxf4 36. Nh2 Kf5 37. Kf2 Ke4 38. Nf3 Ra2 39. c4 Rc2 40. c5 Rb2 White is almost in Zugswang! 41. Ng5+ Kd5 42. Ke1 (24 minutes left) Kc4 (15 minutes left) 43. Ne4 Kb3 44. Nd6 Kc2 45. Nc4 Rb1+ 46. Kf2 Kb3 47. Nd6 Rb2 48. Ne4 Rxd2+ 49. Nxd2 Kxb4 50. Ne4 Kxa5 51. Nd6 Kb4 52. Nxb7 a5 53. Nd6 Kxc5 So it was 4 pawns against knight. It was played out at blitz, but I won very easily. Of course- not a high enough level game to be important from a theoretical sense- but I think very illustrative of what black can hope for in this ending. I have some other ideas about this line that I can post if there are others interested in this opening. Thanks! John


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #24 - 01/27/08 at 05:52:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes you are quite right, this ending is highly unpleasant for black. Nice piece of analysis, well done. Tops

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Matemax

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Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #23 - 01/25/08 at 08:11:41

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Quote:

Is this clearly winning for White? After 20.Bxd5+ it looks like he remains the exchange down for a pawn and the game continues.
What am I missing?

The line I suggest goes:
20...Be6 21.Qf3 (its important to exchange queens on f6 as seen later) Qf6 (if Kg7 then Qc3 with the same position following) 22.Qf6 Kf6 23.Re6 Kf5 (now it looks as white has problems) 24.g4 Kg4 25.Ba8 Ra8 26.Rh6 (Re7 is also a possibility) - DIAGRAMM

White will win a pawn (it should not be taken immediatly

). According to Marin (Learning from the legends) I would estimate this position as 2:1 for white, which means black has some chances for a draw ("All rook endgames are draw" - OK, but here you have to suffer a lot). I am still analysing this rook endgame (which improves my endgame play Wink

) and I dont have the final conclusion that white is winning in all the lines. But this may also be a problem of myself - a very strong endgame player would certainly be a better analyst here.

If you ask "clearly" winning I have to admit: "No" - but the winning chances are high and as it looks this is at the moment blacks best and only way in the hole line (!) with 8.Bg5

I would be very happy about the evaluation of the diagramm! Roll Eyes

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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #22 - 01/25/08 at 03:48:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	Matemax wrote on 01/23/08 at 11:51:29: 19.Qh5 a) 19...Qg6 20.Bd5 (white remains at least a pawn up with a better position) b) 19...Kf6 20.Kg1! - and I hope I made this move work, there are many branches ... I got in contact with NIC about 2 weeks ago and they are interested to bring it in the "forum" of YB 86 (even with a photograph of me )). Until now they did not come up with additional questions to the analysis but promised me to have a critical look. Is this clearly winning for White? After 20.Bxd5+ it looks like he remains the exchange down for a pawn and the game continues. What am I missing? Toppy

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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GMTonyKosten YaBB Administrator Online Mr Dynamic? Posts: 3207 Location: Clermont-Ferrand Joined: 12/19/02 Gender:	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #21 - 01/24/08 at 00:51:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, that looks good, and after 18...Qf5 and ...Be6 I guess you take the queen? All-in-all it looks like Black is in real trouble in both 8 Bg5 and the mainline endgame.


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Matemax God Member Offline Chesspub gives you strength! Posts: 1302 Joined: 11/04/07	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #20 - 01/23/08 at 11:51:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	19.Qh5 a) 19...Qg6 20.Bd5 (white remains at least a pawn up with a better position) b) 19...Kf6 20.Kg1! - and I hope I made this move work, there are many branches ... I got in contact with NIC about 2 weeks ago and they are interested to bring it in the "forum" of YB 86 (even with a photograph of me )). Until now they did not come up with additional questions to the analysis but promised me to have a critical look.


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GMTonyKosten

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Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #19 - 01/23/08 at 11:29:40

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Matemax wrote on 12/27/07 at 08:29:54:

You dont believe me? Well you dont have to - but give 16.Re1 yourself a try - I have no problem posting my analysis, if wanted Wink

Presumably your winnning line goes: 16. Re1 fxg5 17. Qh6+ Kf7 18. Bxc6 Qd6:

and then what? Undecided

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GMTonyKosten YaBB Administrator Online Mr Dynamic? Posts: 3207 Location: Clermont-Ferrand Joined: 12/19/02 Gender:	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #18 - 01/23/08 at 11:25:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	Matemax wrote on 01/22/08 at 18:38:13: Quote: regarding 8. Bg5!?, is there anything wrong with 8...Be7 9. Bxe7 Qxe7! 10.c4 could be a problem You're right, that looks very strong.


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Matemax God Member Offline Chesspub gives you strength! Posts: 1302 Joined: 11/04/07	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #17 - 01/22/08 at 18:38:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: regarding 8. Bg5!?, is there anything wrong with 8...Be7 9. Bxe7 Qxe7! 10.c4 could be a problem


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GMTonyKosten YaBB Administrator Online Mr Dynamic? Posts: 3207 Location: Clermont-Ferrand Joined: 12/19/02 Gender:	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #16 - 01/22/08 at 17:20:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	Matemax wrote on 12/27/07 at 08:29:54: In the game analyses to Mate-Pinter they give the following moves: 15.c3 f5 16.Be3 g6 (Ke7?! was played in the game) 17.Nd2 Kc8 18.f3 exf3 19.Nxf3 b5 20.Bc2 Re8 21.Bd4 Bd5 with equality: Just one point: White can play 19. Bd4 before capturing on f3 as then the black rook can't go to e8 and after, say, 18. f3 exf3 19. Bd4 Rd8 20. Nxf3 b5 21. Bc2 Bd5 there is no threat of ...Re2 to worry about, so White can simply play the immediate 22. Kg3, gaining a tempo should Black play 22...Re8.


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GMTonyKosten YaBB Administrator Online Mr Dynamic? Posts: 3207 Location: Clermont-Ferrand Joined: 12/19/02 Gender:	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #15 - 01/22/08 at 17:00:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	Firstly, regarding 8. Bg5!?, is there anything wrong with 8...Be7 9. Bxe7 Qxe7! 10. Nxd4 O-O 11. Bxc6 bxc6 12. f3 c5 13. Nc6 Qf6! 14. Qxd5 Bb7 - Black is ahead in development, and looks at least equal? In the mainline, I like the idea (from Markovich) of keeping the bishop pair on the board by 15.c3 f5 16.Be3 g6 17.Nd2 Kc8 18. Bd1 as White has all the chances with zero risk.


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #14 - 01/19/08 at 20:25:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	Not according to my sources (Euwe and Pachman). After 4.0-0 Nxe4 5.d4 exd4 6.Re1 d5 the latter recommends the extra option 7.Qxd4 +- but I don't find that too convincing.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #13 - 01/19/08 at 14:44:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	Pop Quiz: Does playing the Riga without a6 change things significantly, and if so how so? Topster

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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drkodos God Member Offline I see....stars. Posts: 778 Location: Jupiter, and beyond Joined: 03/29/07	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #12 - 01/17/08 at 18:29:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	In the YB column the authors state: "With the new defensive ideas presented here, the endgame doesn't seem to promise White much." And they are correct, for they basically neglected to show White's most critical moves. They do not mention it in their notes, but they include it in game Nispeanu-Dumittrache, the key area of neglect being found in the old "Capablanca line" at white move #17: 15. Be3 f5 16. Nc3 Ke7 17. Bb3 Which is very strong for white to play the Bishop move BEFORE playing g4. This forces Black King to a white square to avoid the bone-crunching, piece activating move N check on d5. From my own games (as Black) I have not been able to hold this position against humans or computers and have found it to be much easier to win as white. 17. .... Kf7 (perhaps Bxb3 should be played here and this is the first place to look for ways to improve Black's (slim) chances.) 18. Bxe6 Kxe6 19. g4 g6 (?!) Another move where Black needs find something better, but what are the alternmatives, taking on g4?. Also, here White has options to play the B to f4 forcing Black's rook passively defend the c pawn. Once those White minor pieces get into play, they are stronger than the rook. It is here in the Nispeanu game that the authors suggest: 18. ... fg4 19 Ne4 Bb3 20. ab b6 21. Ra4 h5 22. Rc4 c5 23. b4 cb 24. Bb6 a5 and claim equality. First off, move 22, white can improve with 22 Nc3. Second, their resulting claim of equality seems hard to prove after White plays 25. Kg3. I just do not see it, nor can I hold this position against players of equal strength. The fact that White has THREE pieces against Black's TWO means that White can bring more fire-power to bear on weaknesses and at some point Black cannot mathematically defend. Another critical idea for white is to not exchange the g pawn, but instead push it to g5 as shown in the recent J. Benjamin column: http://main.uschess.org/content/view/8112/341/ Why open the file for the Black rook? Better is to get the White King active in the center before making any exchanges that could leave his majesty stuck on the h-file if that rook gets to g8. And lastly, as stated above, 8.Bg5 is a most promising line for white, and is somewhat annoying because it is not at all what Black has in mind when (s)he plays the Riga. Caveat: Despite all this, I play the Riga regularly as Black and have excellent results with it but I believe it is only because I am taking advantage of White's ingnorance of how to maintain their winning chances/advantage. I have no doubt that some improvements can be found for both sides and I think this opening can remain "playable" and very fun, but I do not think it will ever be proved to be "safe" or "solid" or lead to equality.

	I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #11 - 12/27/07 at 16:10:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Matemax wrote on 12/27/07 at 08:29:54: Its hard to believe white has serious winning chances here - I would feel very comfortable with black Of course White has winning chances. For one thing, ultimately, he can try to get in amongst Black's kingside pawns, e.g. Kg3-f4. I suppose I would start out with 22.Bd3. Also, White is under no obligation to play 18.f3. Perhaps he can precede this with 18.Bd1. Slow perhaps, but what is time in the ending? He is under no obligation to play 16.c3, for that matter; it is merely that I think this move is good. Black has a great deal to prove in this ending.

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Matemax God Member Offline Chesspub gives you strength! Posts: 1302 Joined: 11/04/07	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #10 - 12/27/07 at 08:29:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: To that end, Tarrasch's 15.c3 seems like a good move from the tabiya. Talsma and Boll then advocate 15...f5 16.Be3 (they don't mention 16.Bg5, which is also strong) 16..g6 17.Nd2 Kc8 18.f3 b5 (18...exf3!?)19.Bc2 exf3 20.Nxf3 Re8 "followed by ...Kb7, with equality." In the game analyses to Mate-Pinter they give the following moves: 15.c3 f5 16.Be3 g6 (Ke7?! was played in the game) 17.Nd2 Kc8 18.f3 exf3 19.Nxf3 b5 20.Bc2 Re8 21.Bd4 Bd5 with equality: Its hard to believe white has serious winning chances here - I would feel very comfortable with black Playing 16.Bg5 doesnt change much - it just looks like a useless check, as black will play Kc8 anyway. I think the endgame is overestimated for white and tends to equality - I think 8.Bg5 ist much more a threat to blacks ambitions - Here the recommendations of Boll/Talsma are probably on very thin ice. At last dont forget 8.c4. TO ADD (!): I took some time to analyse 8.Bg5 (game Avrum-Medveski or may I say Comp1-Comp2 with support? ) and think the RIGAER is BUSTED! - The refutation starts with 16.Re1 (instead of 16.Bh6 as played in the game) - I am also a bit shocked that Boll/Talsma dont give anything to 16.Re1 - they also only follow the comp-lines. Somehow we have a connection to the discussion "OTB vs CORR": http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1197833426 - and this practical example does not favour the corr players You dont believe me? Well you dont have to - but give 16.Re1 yourself a try - I have no problem posting my analysis, if wanted
	« Last Edit: 12/27/07 at 11:22:41 by Matemax »

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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #9 - 12/27/07 at 02:36:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	drkodos wrote on 12/27/07 at 00:52:04: If you know the theory as Black, it's a great weapon as anyone under 2200 is most unlikely to know the bust (and there is one), that allows white to win easily in the endgame. Most experts and under are shocked when you grab the second pawn as their knowledge in the line is usually limited to the concept that Black shouldn't be able to get away with this. Unless one is 2500+ (elo), against strong players you will be giving them easy points. It's in NIC YB-85. Every few years someone "discovers" that this line is better than it's reputation. The only problem is, it isn't. In the main line, White's minor pieces are worth more than the rook and pawns. I'm not saying that the line isn't worth study or doesn't produce interesting chess, just that White is better. As White, I would like to try to keep both my bishops. To that end, Tarrasch's 15.c3 seems like a good move from the tabiya. Talsma and Boll then advocate 15...f5 16.Be3 (they don't mention 16.Bg5, which is also strong) 16..g6 17.Nd2 Kc8 18.f3 b5 (18...exf3!?)19.Bc2 exf3 20.Nxf3 Re8 "followed by ...Kb7, with equality." But Black also has to reckon with 19.Bd1, which prevents ...exf3. E.g. 19...Re8 20.fxe4 fxe4 21.Bc2 and White is better, I opine.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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drkodos God Member Offline I see....stars. Posts: 778 Location: Jupiter, and beyond Joined: 03/29/07	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #8 - 12/27/07 at 00:52:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	If you know the theory as Black, it's a great weapon as anyone under 2200 is most unlikely to know the bust (and there is one), that allows white to win easily in the endgame. Most experts and under are shocked when you grab the second pawn as their knowledge in the line is usually limited to the concept that Black shouldn't be able to get away with this. Unless one is 2500+ (elo), against strong players you will be giving them easy points.

	I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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dsr YaBB Newbies Offline UNIX Guru Posts: 3 Joined: 12/23/07 Gender:	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #7 - 12/26/07 at 15:25:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	I downloaded the Yearbook 85 games from NIC, and I'm looking over the C80 games right now. I'll be sure to check out the old thread when I'm done. Thanks everyone.


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Matemax God Member Offline Chesspub gives you strength! Posts: 1302 Joined: 11/04/07	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #6 - 12/26/07 at 13:41:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: We discussed the Riga-variation previously This was 2005 - perhaps something has changed...


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Klick God Member Offline Posts: 528 Joined: 01/31/03	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #5 - 12/26/07 at 13:18:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	We discussed the Riga-variation previously in this thread: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1120370989/10#10

	There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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Matemax God Member Offline Chesspub gives you strength! Posts: 1302 Joined: 11/04/07	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #4 - 12/26/07 at 07:22:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	New in Chess Yearbook 85 (brandnew!) has the article titelt "Better than its reputation", Authors: Peter Boll (corr. GM) and Paul Talsma (clubmate of Mr. Boll) - the conclusion is that the "RIGAER" is playable. In the classical endgame the authors propose to exchange the light square bishop and bring the king either via f7 or (and thats new!) via c8 - b7. There are also recommendations against 8.c4 (Euwe) and 8.Bg5 (Berger). This is one of the articles that makes Yearbooks! You can download the games (of course without comments ) from: http://www.newinchess.com/Yearbook/Default.aspx?PageID=223 I have to edit: There is of course a treatment in chesspub: Section "e4e5" - December 2003 - As far as I can see the only one (another "to do" for GM Tony K.? )


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #3 - 12/26/07 at 03:44:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	I assume Bibs either means New In Chess Yearbook 85 or ChessBase Magazine 85. For both one has to pay.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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dsr YaBB Newbies Offline UNIX Guru Posts: 3 Joined: 12/23/07 Gender:	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #2 - 12/26/07 at 03:30:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks, Bibs. I am quite new to the world of online chess theory. This will seem really obvious but (a) what does CB stand for and (b) is a subscription needed? If the answer to the latter is yes, what was the gist of the article? I assume that the Riga is considered favorable to White or else any Black player content with a draw would play it, but why does it favor White? How would I proceed?


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Bibs God Member Offline Posts: 2345 Joined: 10/24/06	Re: Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez Reply #1 - 12/26/07 at 03:01:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	Article in CB Yearbook 85 on this. Just published.


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dsr YaBB Newbies Offline UNIX Guru Posts: 3 Joined: 12/23/07 Gender:	Riga Variation of the Open Ruy Lopez 12/25/07 at 23:24:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	I am just starting to learn to play the Ruy Lopez as White, and I was wondering why the Riga Variation of the Open Defense (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.d4 exd4) is considered inferior to the main 6...b5 line. The position that arises after 7.Re1 d5 8.Nxd4 Bd6 9.Nxc6 Bxh2+ 10.Kh1 (to avoid perpetual check) 10...Qh4 11.Rxe4+ dxe4 12.Qxd8+ Qxd8 13.Nxd8+ Kxd8 14.Kxh2 seems to favor Black if anyone. After all, he is up two pawns and a rook to two minor pieces. Can someone please enlighten me and explain how to proceed as White?


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