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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C03: Tarrasch - Guimard variation (3...Nc6) game (Read 30903 times)
Stigma
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Re: C03: Tarrasch - Guimard variation (3...Nc6) game
Reply #21 - 10/27/15 at 00:05:13
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fling wrote on 10/26/15 at 19:09:49:
I can find 58 games at Chesspub. Seems like a pretty decent coverage Wink

Bauer and Goh Wei Ming have three games each annotated.

Yes, ChessPublishing must be easily the best source for the Guimard.

As for books, the most recent one I'm aware of that covered it from a Black perspective was a chapter in Dangerous Weapons: The French by John Watson. Some of his book reviews also turn into something like an opening article, for example this one, where among other lines he discussed Tzermiadianos' repertoire suggestion for White based on 6.c3 f6 7.Bb5 http://www.theweekinchess.com/john-watson-reviews/opening-books-en-masse-part-3

Btw. 6.Be2 was also supposed to be critical last time I heard about it, with Yevseev covering it in his otherwise IQP-based repertoire book. I believe Ntirlis has also hinted that it might be the choice in the upcoming White 1.e4 book by John Shaw.
  

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Keano
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Re: C03: Tarrasch - Guimard variation (3...Nc6) game
Reply #20 - 10/26/15 at 21:10:24
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kylemeister wrote on 10/26/15 at 20:33:46:
I noticed that in the latest update Watson considered 6. Bd3 f6 7. ef Qxf6 8. Nf1 to be somewhat favorable for White.  I suppose the fact that 6...Nb4 (the other old book move) can transpose to the Universal System would be enough to put off a lot of Guimard folk.


That does look a decent practical choice for White players
  
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Re: C03: Tarrasch - Guimard variation (3...Nc6) game
Reply #19 - 10/26/15 at 20:33:46
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I noticed that in the latest update Watson considered 6. Bd3 f6 7. ef Qxf6 8. Nf1 to be somewhat favorable for White.  I suppose the fact that 6...Nb4 (the other old book move) can transpose to the Universal System would be enough to put off a lot of Guimard folk.
  
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fling
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Re: C03: Tarrasch - Guimard variation (3...Nc6) game
Reply #18 - 10/26/15 at 19:09:49
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I can find 58 games at Chesspub. Seems like a pretty decent coverage Wink

Bauer and Goh Wei Ming have three games each annotated.

The latest try seems to be 6. Bd3 instead of c3. Can't tell if Black is holding up. White seems a bit better, but Black will for sure have chances.
  
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Re: C03: Tarrasch - Guimard variation (3...Nc6) game
Reply #17 - 10/25/15 at 23:42:23
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Bibs wrote on 10/25/15 at 13:45:14:
Bump!

So, guys, what indeed is happening in the Guimard?
I do find it curious that this has never been a repertoire recommendation. In the dangerous/tricky type repertoire approach.
Black holding up?
Problem lines?
Black 'hero' to follow?
Recent decent coverage anywhere (in any language)? Book?

Thanks comrades.

Cheers,
B


hmm, after consulting my considerable library of French Defence books the only one I can see that gives any decent mention is my old childhood favourite RHM Press book - Gligoric and Uhlmann - the French Defence 1975 (!!!!!)  Surprisingly, given the publication date, this book has proved a minefield of ideas in other lines, however it is obviously out of date. They give 6.Nb3! as best with 6.Be2 leading to a slight edge also.

I recall some strong cuban players playing this line as Black in team matches but I can't recall their names atm. With more time -I can check but over-all the line seems to make sense as a sound way to escape mainstream theory. Recall Nick Pert also trying out ...Nc6 after both 3.Nc3 and 3.Nd2
  
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Bibs
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Re: C03: Tarrasch - Guimard variation (3...Nc6) game
Reply #16 - 10/25/15 at 13:45:14
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Bump!

So, guys, what indeed is happening in the Guimard?
I do find it curious that this has never been a repertoire recommendation. In the dangerous/tricky type repertoire approach.
Black holding up?
Problem lines?
Black 'hero' to follow?
Recent decent coverage anywhere (in any language)? Book?

Thanks comrades.

Cheers,
B
  
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Re: C03: Tarrasch - Guimard variation (3...Nc6) game
Reply #15 - 08/07/15 at 05:09:16
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It's been 4 years since the last update on this post. Interestingly, I came back to India and stopped playing chess in last 4 years. Planning to start again next weekend. Wanted to know what is the latest verdict on the Guimard variation now. I won't have all recent literature available to find it out myself in such a short time and wanted to seek help from this group who always supported me in the past. Thanks in advance.
  
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Re: Tarrasch - Guimard variation (3...Nc6) game
Reply #14 - 08/30/11 at 13:44:51
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Paul Cumbers wrote on 07/19/11 at 18:26:39:
dom wrote on 07/17/11 at 19:33:42:
@Paul Cumbers: yes, not easy line to play this line as Black.
True, but I'm thinking more about whether Black can actually reach a playable position! I don't see it yet.

Don't over-react, Paul. Black has options. Roll Eyes

Paul Cumbers wrote on 07/19/11 at 18:26:39:
Joe Gallagher (2534) - Nicolas Curien (2285)
Switzerland 2007
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nc6 4.Ngf3 Nf6 5.e5 Nd7 6.c3 f6 7.Bb5 fxe5 8.dxe5 Be7 9.Nd4 Ndxe5 10.f4 0–0!? 11.fxe5 Nxe5 12.N2f3 Ng4 13.Qe2 e5 14.Nxe5 Rf2 15.Qxg4 Bxg4 16.Kxf2 Bd6 17.Nxg4 Qh4+ 18.g3 Qxg4 unclear, drawn in 49 moves.

Black gets 2 central pawns for the piece sac, with White's king in the centre for the time being. Is that enough comp? Curien did well, but White could search for improvements (e.g. 12.Qe2).

I've had a look at 12.Qe2. Instinctively, I feel White should be able to gain the advantage, but in reality it's not so easy. I haven't found anything clear-cut yet:

12.Qe2 a6!

(12...Bh4+ softens up White's king-side, but after 13.g3 Bf6 14.0–0 c6 15.Ba4 Nf7 16.Nxe6! Qb6+ 17.Kg2 Re8 18.Ne4!, White turns the tables with a counter-sacrifice.)

13.Ba4

(probably better than giving Black the half-open a-file with 13.Qxe5 Bd6 followed by 14…axb5)

13...Bd6 14.Bb3

(The idea behind 12...a6 is revealed after 14.N2f3 Nxf3+ 15.Nxf3 Rxf3! 16.Qxf3 Qh4+, when Black picks up the bishop and catches up on points.)

14...Qh4+ 15.Kd1 Rf2 16.N4f3

(Alternatively 16.N2f3 Rxe2 17.Nxh4 Rf2 18.Bc2 Bd7 [18...Be7!?] intending ...Raf8, or else 19.Be3 Ng4. Black seems to have compensation, despite the exchange of queens.)

16...Rxe2 17.Nxh4 Rf2 18.Rf1 Rxf1+ 19.Nxf1 Bd7 20.Nd2 Rf8 21.Nhf3 Ng4 22.Ke2 Nxh2 23.Nxh2 Bxh2 24.Nf3 Bd6 and Black can be satisfied with 3 pawns for the piece.

Can anyone find anything better for White? Undecided Maybe 10...0-0!? deserves more attention. Shocked

P.S. In the Gallagher-Curien game, 16...Bh4+!? was an interesting possibility, e.g. 17.Kg1 Qe7 18.Nxg4 Qe1+ 19.Bf1 Rf8 20.Nf3 Rxf3 21.gxf3 h5 22.Bg5 Qxa1 23.Bxh4 hxg4
  
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Re: Tarrasch - Guimard variation (3...Nc6) game
Reply #13 - 07/19/11 at 18:26:39
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dom wrote on 07/17/11 at 19:33:42:
@Paul Cumbers: yes, not easy line to play this line as Black.
True, but I'm thinking more about whether Black can actually reach a playable position! I don't see it yet. Maybe your 7...Be7 is the way forward, although OrangeCounty has suggested some promising ideas for White.

One other thought is to try something radical, i.e.

Joe Gallagher (2534) - Nicolas Curien (2285)
Switzerland 2007
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nc6 4.Ngf3 Nf6 5.e5 Nd7 6.c3 f6 7.Bb5 fxe5 8.dxe5 Be7 9.Nd4 Ndxe5 10.f4 0–0!? 11.fxe5 Nxe5 12.N2f3 Ng4 13.Qe2 e5 14.Nxe5 Rf2 15.Qxg4 Bxg4 16.Kxf2 Bd6 17.Nxg4 Qh4+ 18.g3 Qxg4 unclear, drawn in 49 moves.

Black gets 2 central pawns for the piece sac, with White's king in the centre for the time being. Is that enough comp? Curien did well, but White could search for improvements (e.g. 12.Qe2).
« Last Edit: 07/19/11 at 20:09:57 by Paul Cumbers »  
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dom
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Re: Tarrasch - Guimard variation (3...Nc6) game
Reply #12 - 07/17/11 at 19:33:42
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@Paul Cumbers: yes, not easy line to play this line as Black.
  

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Re: Tarrasch - Guimard variation (3...Nc6) game
Reply #11 - 07/17/11 at 18:54:08
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dom wrote on 07/13/11 at 07:55:42:
I had easy draw vs IM I know very well yesterday:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nc6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5 Nfd7 6.c3 f6 7.Bb5 Be7 8.exf6 Bxf6 9.oo oo 10.Re1 Re8 11.Nb3 a5 12.Bf4 a4 13.Nc1 a3 14.b3 Ncb8=

7...Be7 could turn out to be useful, as I'm having doubts about the alternative 7...fxe5:

Roger Williamson (2184) - Paul Cumbers (2177)
ICC, 16.06.2011

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nc6 4.Ngf3 Nf6 5.e5 Nd7 6.c3 f6 7.Bb5 fxe5 8.dxe5 Be7 9.Nd4 Nxd4 10.cxd4 0–0 11.Bd3 Rf7 (So far so good - my last move seems to have the backing of various French experts, but...) 12.h4!? c5 (if this natural move is a mistake, then I question Black's entire set-up) 13.Nf3 cxd4? (weak, but it's hard to see a good move for Black. 13...g6 14.h5 g5 looks suspicious - Godat v Narkun, LSS email 2009) 14.Bxh7+? (Tweaking the move order with 14.Ng5! Bxg5 15.Bxh7+! gives White the advantage) 14...Kxh7 15.Ng5+ Bxg5?? (Black survives after 15...Kg8 16.Qh5 Bb4+ 17.Kf1 Nxe5) 16.hxg5+ Kg8 17.Qh5 Kf8 18.g6 with a winning position, etc. 1–0

White's h4 idea looks strong to me. Watson's recommendation of 9...Ndxe5 would avoid it (see http://www.chess.co.uk/twic/jwat92.html if you're not a ChessPublishing subscriber), but I'm unconvinced as Black ends up with a passive position.
  
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dom
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Re: Tarrasch - Guimard variation (3...Nc6) game
Reply #10 - 07/14/11 at 22:42:36
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@SF: yes you are right
  

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Re: Tarrasch - Guimard variation (3...Nc6) game
Reply #9 - 07/14/11 at 20:45:17
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I'll bite:  Black claims equality since White can't go Nd3 because it hangs the Bb5, so I guess White tries 14 Bxd7 or 14 Bf1.  14 b4 might be interesting too (hence 13 b4!), although in either case, maybe Nb6-c4 is useful to Black in some lines.

14 Bf1 c5 (I assume?) 15 Nd3 Nc6 16 Nde5 is an idea, although it doesn't look like a huge edge.
14 Bxd7 Nxd7 15 Nd3 planning to occupy e5 might be more serious, as if the Bf6 is exchanged, Black is looking at a serious disadvantage.  Which means...
14 Be5 may work, planning to take the second knight when it arrives on e7 or c6.

In other words, even without fancy tactics or real analysis, I see a lot of positive ideas for White.  Compared to the Tarrasch mainlines, isn't Black a little bit less active (No Rook on f8, no Bd6xh2 threats, etc.)?
  
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Re: Tarrasch - Guimard variation (3...Nc6) game
Reply #8 - 07/14/11 at 14:38:42
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dom, is the following game right?

(I wasn't trying to be intentionally thick about 3...Nc6, there were a couple other issues with the original text and I wanted to be sure I got it right.)

  
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dom
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Re: Tarrasch - Guimard variation (3...Nc6) game
Reply #7 - 07/14/11 at 10:19:52
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BPaulsen wrote on 07/13/11 at 13:48:58:
Since it's a Guimard presumably his game score doesn't make sense because 3...Nf6 should be 3...Nc6.


Yes BPaulsen, ... sorry  ...: 3...Nc6
@SF: can you modify my first post and delete this one (useless) ?
Next time, I will use the pgn tag to check a little when I type raw moves Smiley
  

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