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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Classical Berlin - critical lines? (Read 12022 times)
GMTonyKosten
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Re: Classical Berlin - critical lines?
Reply #13 - 01/30/12 at 12:32:02
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Markovich wrote on 01/30/12 at 03:00:48:
Is it so bad for Black after 14.Ne4 Rb8?

I think White is just getting on with it on the kingside, 15.Rf3 etc. - my Rybka seems to think White is already winning after 15...h6 16.Nf6+ Kh8 17.Raf1, and it does look pretty dire. Sad
  
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Markovich
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Re: Classical Berlin - critical lines?
Reply #12 - 01/30/12 at 03:00:48
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/29/12 at 14:53:08:
I was just having a look at a line Mark analysed in his Hard Chess column (http://correspondencechess.com/campbell/hard/h990517b.htm, back in 1999), 7...Ba7 8.dxe5 Nxe4 9.Qd5! Qh4!?, but instead of 10.g3 my computer wants to play the odd-looking 10.Be3. Unfortunately, the more I look at this the stronger it appears to be, e.g. 10...Bxe3 11.fxe3 0-0 12.Bd3 Ng5 13.Nd2 Ne6 14.Ne4.
I couldn't find any games on Megabase 2012, is there something I'm missing here? Undecided


Is it so bad for Black after 14.Ne4 Rb8?
  

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Vass
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Re: Classical Berlin - critical lines?
Reply #11 - 01/29/12 at 18:17:09
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One game I've found in my Opening Master database OM Golem 2011


Cool
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Classical Berlin - critical lines?
Reply #10 - 01/29/12 at 14:53:08
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I was just having a look at a line Mark analysed in his Hard Chess column (http://correspondencechess.com/campbell/hard/h990517b.htm, back in 1999), 7...Ba7 8.dxe5 Nxe4 9.Qd5! Qh4!?, but instead of 10.g3 my computer wants to play the odd-looking 10.Be3. Unfortunately, the more I look at this the stronger it appears to be, e.g. 10...Bxe3 11.fxe3 0-0 12.Bd3 Ng5 13.Nd2 Ne6 14.Ne4.
I couldn't find any games on Megabase 2012, is there something I'm missing here? Undecided
  
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Dzambus
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Re: Classical Berlin - critical lines?
Reply #9 - 01/26/08 at 11:57:27
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MNb wrote on 01/25/08 at 20:37:24:
Same with me. So I usually just browse through the pages. This is what I found:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1188083828
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1176224268/0#0
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1149281149

As Markovich suffers from unjustified modesty, I will also mention the excellent column Hard Chess. Mark Morss has done some fine analysis on the Classical Berlin/Cordel.


Thanks for links to related subjects Smiley I will work hard trying to repair this line .
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Classical Berlin - critical lines?
Reply #8 - 01/25/08 at 21:49:11
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Markovich wrote on 01/25/08 at 19:27:45:
I was trying just now to search back for some of my old posts on this subject, but I find the search mechanism here intensely frustrating, and I could make nothing good happen with it.


Yes, they seem to have changed the 'By User' search in this version of the software, as now there is a 'Click here to select user to search for.' link which brings up a popup list of members. Not very intuitive, in my opinion, and not very fast, either. Still, it does work ... eventually!
  
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MNb
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Re: Classical Berlin - critical lines?
Reply #7 - 01/25/08 at 20:37:24
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Same with me. So I usually just browse through the pages. This is what I found:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1188083828
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1176224268/0#0
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1149281149

As Markovich suffers from unjustified modesty, I will also mention the excellent column Hard Chess. Mark Morss has done some fine analysis on the Classical Berlin/Cordel.
  

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Markovich
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Re: Classical Berlin - critical lines?
Reply #6 - 01/25/08 at 19:27:45
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Dzambus wrote on 01/25/08 at 12:44:59:
GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/25/08 at 11:47:58:
5 Nxe5 leads to an unpleasant endgame for Black with best play.



I suppose you mean 5...Nxe4 leading to an unpleasant endgame.

But after 5...Nxe5 6.d4 are both 6...a6 and 6...c6 forced wins for White?


Actually it looks rather grim for Black in both those variations.  "Forced win," I don't know, but decidely unappealing for Black.

I was trying just now to search back for some of my old posts on this subject, but I find the search mechanism here intensely frustrating, and I could make nothing good happen with it.
  

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Dzambus
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Re: Classical Berlin - critical lines?
Reply #5 - 01/25/08 at 12:44:59
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/25/08 at 11:47:58:
5 Nxe5 leads to an unpleasant endgame for Black with best play.



I suppose you mean 5...Nxe4 leading to an unpleasant endgame.

But after 5...Nxe5 6.d4 are both 6...a6 and 6...c6 forced wins for White?
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Classical Berlin - critical lines?
Reply #4 - 01/25/08 at 11:47:58
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I think both moves lead to a white advantage, but at least after 5 c3 Black has an interesting position to play. 5 Nxe5 leads to an unpleasant endgame for Black with best play. Black can try 5...Nd4?!, for a laugh, as I once analysed 6 Bc4 d6 7 Nxf7!? Qe7 to an almost forced win for Black in a couple of lines! 7 Nf3 is a little bit annoying though! Sad
  
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Re: Classical Berlin - critical lines?
Reply #3 - 01/24/08 at 19:06:36
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CheckMate wrote on 01/24/08 at 18:12:12:
I find this amusing! The old books all asserted that 5. Nxe5 is completely harmless only leading to simplifications and an early draw (e.g. Keres: Klassisches Spanisch bis Französisch) and 5. c3 is the way to go for an advantage. It seems that the last decades have overturned assessments in this line 180 degrees.  Maybe Classical defense devotees should turn their efforts towards 4 ... Nd4 instead.



I don't know the extent to which my own opinion is also held by the big boys.
  

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Re: Classical Berlin - critical lines?
Reply #2 - 01/24/08 at 18:12:12
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I find this amusing! The old books all asserted that 5. Nxe5 is completely harmless only leading to simplifications and an early draw (e.g. Keres: Klassisches Spanisch bis Französisch) and 5. c3 is the way to go for an advantage. It seems that the last decades have overturned assessments in this line 180 degrees.  Maybe Classical defense devotees should turn their efforts towards 4 ... Nd4 instead.

  
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Re: Classical Berlin - critical lines?
Reply #1 - 01/23/08 at 20:21:27
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Dzambus wrote on 01/23/08 at 18:56:04:
Hi, I want to ask about that one:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5

Is that line currently under pressure or is it playable for Black?

Is 5.Nxe5 best try for White or 5.c3  ?



My own view, which I've expressed here in one or two places, is that 5.Nxe5 is the most dangerous for Black.  There, some of the lines that formerly seemed to offer Black counterchances have been analyzed to White advantage.  You can check back to former threads and find some of this.
  

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Classical Berlin - critical lines?
01/23/08 at 18:56:04
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Hi, I want to ask about that one:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5

Is that line currently under pressure or is it playable for Black?

Is 5.Nxe5 best try for White or 5.c3  ?

  
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