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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) From Gambit book - query (Read 18648 times)
Latvian1
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Re: From Gambit book - query
Reply #35 - 08/20/19 at 21:07:34
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Georg Deppe Froms Gambit Schachverlag Rudi Schmaus 6900 HeidelbergJuly 1979
  
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Sylvester
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Re: From Gambit book - query
Reply #34 - 07/22/09 at 13:55:36
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I appreciate the confirmation my little discovery Dr. Vigus.

I hope you take it upon yourself to explore the Bird Opening further as your academic training and skill shines powerfully through your work.

To ask me to distill new information on the From or Bird , from the latest Birdbase, accidently reveals my crude understanding of this whole opening system. Your work in this area has merely enabled me an opportunity to press my nose against the theory house window. Even then I can only get a fleeting glimpse of what is happening.

Again, I sincerely appreciate what you have done for me and the other readers of your articles. I'm sorry I can't offer anything of further use to you. Again, I do hope you will find the time to offer us more on the Bird and From in the future.

Maybe you and GM Danielsen could collaborate on something of mutual interest. I'd love to be around to read the results of that kind of broadening in your network.
  
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Re: From Gambit book - query
Reply #33 - 07/19/09 at 11:49:43
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Thanks, Wink! Agreed, moves like Qe2 are a source of hope for even the sub-grandmasterly human brain. It's a shame that Pickard's latest database wasn't yet available when I wrote my articles. Is there much new material there? I was sceptical at first, but amazed how useful the collection of blitz games  is for getting a thematic overview - to be used with caution, of course.
  
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Re: From Gambit book - query
Reply #32 - 07/06/09 at 19:49:09
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I've finished reading/studying the articles written by Dr. James Vigus -- Dangerous Weapons: Flank Openings (Larsen's Antidote to the From and Beware the Polar Bear) -- and would like to thank him for his fine work and great writing style that I very much enjoyed.

I had to spend quite a bit of time looking at the note to B) p.223 5...Nc6 6.e3 Ng4 7. Ne4 Be7 looking at a better alternative for Black before I realized that 7.Qe2! actually threatens to transpose into the diagram 24 B if Black insists on play ...Nc3-e5. In fact, I think this (5...Nc6) is a transpositional trick that White has to be wary about in the Neo From.

I used this position in a ChessBase search through Sid Pickard's most recent BirdBase and found quite a few games. From looking at the list, I realized that GM H. Danielsen has played 6.e3 in this position in 2004 (as opposed to 6.e4 in 1997) so 5...Nc6 might be quiet but it is definitely tricky. I now think 5...Nc6 is a sly way for Black to trick White out of the option of getting diagram 24 B, p.223, on the chess board.

With this point in mind the note a) near the bottom of p.218 may have to be reconsidered. Against 4...Nc6 maybe White should play 5.e3! and get ready to meet 5...Nf6 with 6.Nc3! and 6...Ng4 with 7.Qe2! This is one instance where I can appreciate Larsen's concept of the "only moves" in the From/Neo From.

Of course, all of this assumes the diagram position 24 B, p.223 is what White finds acceptable. I can't see why not.

By the way, the computers don't easily find moves like Qe2 in the From or Neo-From. That is interesting and, to me, vaguely suggests a flaw in opening programming.

I hope I haven't missed anything here. If that is the case, enlighten me please.

  
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Re: From Gambit book - query
Reply #31 - 05/22/08 at 08:27:00
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SWJediknight wrote on 05/22/08 at 00:27:50:
Fritz 10's openings book offers 6...Nc6 as an alternative to 6...Bxe5 but I'm not sure of how good that is (the book move is 7 Bf4 which offers Black a fairly easy game, but 7 Qd3 is also possible for instance).


in the analyses from my website I give

7.Nxc6 ! (Black doesn t really have threats here. 7.Bf4 is less strong because the knight can t hold on e5 : 7Qf6 8.Qd2 Nge7 9.Nc3 Nxe5 10.dxe5 Bxe5 11.Bxe5 Qxe5 12.0-0-0 Be6 13.e4 c6, Djordjevic-Ljubojevic, Yougoslavie, 1969)

7Qh4+ (7bxc6 8.g3 h5 9.Bg2 h4 10.Qd3 Bd7 11.Nc3 Rb8 12.0-0 hxg3 13.hxg3 c5 14.Bf4, with a clear advantage for white, Tartakover Spielmann, Vienne 1913)

8.g3 Bxg3 9.hxg3 Qxh1 10.Ne5 h5 11.Qd3 Ne7 (Lau-Michailov, Kassel 1995) 12.Nc3 , with a clear advantage for white.

(all the analyses I gave in the last few posts can be found here in french : http://ouverturebird.free.fr/fichetechnique1.php )


An example from a game I played against a 2400 player in a rapidplay :
1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 d6 3.exd6 Bxd6 4.Nf3 g5 5.d4 g4 6.Ne5 Nc6?! 7.Nxc6 bxc6? 8.g3 h5 9.Bg2 h4 10.Qd3! Ne7?! 11.Bg5! hxg3 12.hxg3 Rxh1+ 13.Bxh1 with an almost decisive advantage for white - and as usual I managed to lose this game Wink
  
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Re: From Gambit book - query
Reply #30 - 05/22/08 at 00:27:50
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Fritz 10's openings book offers 6...Nc6 as an alternative to 6...Bxe5 but I'm not sure of how good that is (the book move is 7 Bf4 which offers Black a fairly easy game, but 7 Qd3 is also possible for instance).

After 6...Bxe5 7 dxe5 Qxd1+ 8 Kxd1 Nc6 Fritz considers 9 Nc3 to be far preferable to 9 Bf4 after a short think.
  
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Re: From Gambit book - query
Reply #29 - 05/21/08 at 14:11:15
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In my point of view, both 6.Ne5 and 5.g3 give an edge for white.
It depends on what you want : with 5.g3 you are a sound pawn up but you ll have to defend for more than 10 moves before having some counterplay; with 5.Ne5 Bxe5 6.dxe5 your extra pawn is doubled but have some play against your oponent.
I used to play 5.g3 but I now think there are some annoying subvariations that requires accurate play from White. So I switched to 6.Ne5 which is safer indeed.

In the variation 6.Ne5 Qf6, White can play 7.Nc3! Bxe5 8.dxe5 Qxe5 9.Qd5! with an edge, for example 9Qe7 ( 9Qxd5 10.Nxd5 Na6 11.e4, with a clear edge for white) 10.Qd4 f6 11.Nd5 Qd8 12.Bf4 Na6 13.0-0-0 Kf7 14.e4, +- Dreyer-Pena, Tel aviv 1964.
  
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Re: From Gambit book - query
Reply #28 - 05/21/08 at 13:58:20
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well d4 g4 Ne5 Bxe5 dxe5 Qxd1+ Kxd1 seems alot safer and g3 g4 Nh4 runs into alot of trouble giving black huge counterplay for the pawn... I mean you're basically telling black he has to prove his pawn gambit which is what most gambiters would love to hear. I find white rarely can prove he is better because of the pawn but again this is a matter of taste whether to go for the unclear position over the safe and sound lines. At any rate I had a question in the d4 g4 line I was not stating it superior.

SWJediknight wrote on 05/21/08 at 13:39:41:
My impression was always that 5 d4 g4 6 Ne5 gave Black sufficient compensation (I've played the Black side of this before, but continued with 6...Qe7 or 6...Qf6 rather than 6...Bxe5, and got good positions).
Interesting I shall have to examine this. I had never considered such a line because 7. e4 looks so menancing. The mere thought makes me cringe but I shall have to play this sometime.
  
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Re: From Gambit book - query
Reply #27 - 05/21/08 at 13:50:10
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trw wrote on 05/21/08 at 12:28:30:
I think he meant 5. g3 g4 6. Nh4

where black has PLENTY of counterplay for the pawn. To accept this variation over another is a matter of taste... to follow timothy taylor blindly is stupid especially since the variations he barely covers or addresses are the From.... plenty of better resources for the Birds have been posted in this thread including the link I posted above which I think Bird's lovers or enthusiasts will have much enjoyment.

I meant indeed 5.g3-g4 6.Nh4.
By the way I have never had any problem till now with this variation and it is the reason I do not understand why to go for something else. Wink
  

Yusupov once said that The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7 but he is surely wrong.
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Re: From Gambit book - query
Reply #26 - 05/21/08 at 13:39:41
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My impression was always that 5 d4 g4 6 Ne5 gave Black sufficient compensation (I've played the Black side of this before, but continued with 6...Qe7 or 6...Qf6 rather than 6...Bxe5, and got good positions).  The critical response is indeed 5 g3 g4 6 Nh4, with the idea of meeting Ne7-g6 with Nxg6.  I don't have Timothy's book, but recall reviews saying that he thinks White can emerge with advantage in this line with accurate play.  Hence the chaotic 4...Nf6 5 d4 Ng4 is often preferred.

I like the look of 1 f4 Nc6, especially as these days I prefer to play the 2...Nc6 variant of the From, and often play the 3...Nc6 variation of the Kings Gambit Accepted with Black.  I may give this a closer look at some point.  I first wondered what Black would do after 1 f4 Nc6 2 Nf3 e5 3 Nxe5, but then 3...Nxe5 4 fxe5 Qh4+ looks very strong.
Btw, after 1 f4 Nc6 2 d4 e5 3 dxe5 (instead of 3 fxe5 transposing to the From), Black should continue in From Gambit style with 3...d6 IMO, rather than the usually-recommended 3...f6 which is better for White after 4 Nf3! fxe5 5 fxe5.
  
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Re: From Gambit book - query
Reply #25 - 05/21/08 at 13:36:58
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My impression was always that 5 d4 g4 6 Ne5 gave Black sufficient compensation (I've played the Black side of this before, but continued with 6...Qe7 or 6...Qf6 rather than 6...Bxe5, and got good positions).  The critical response is indeed 5 g3 g4 6 Nh4, with the idea of meeting Ne7-g6 with Nxg6.  I don't have Timothy's book, but recall reviews saying that he thinks White can emerge with advantage in this line with accurate play.

I like the look of 1 f4 Nc6, especially as these days I prefer to play the 2...Nc6 variant of the From, and often play the 3...Nc6 variation of the Kings Gambit Accepted with Black.  I may give this a closer look at some point.
  
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Re: From Gambit book - query
Reply #24 - 05/21/08 at 12:28:30
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I think he meant 5. g3 g4 6. Nh4

where black has PLENTY of counterplay for the pawn. To accept this variation over another is a matter of taste... to follow timothy taylor blindly is stupid especially since the variations he barely covers or addresses are the From.... plenty of better resources for the Birds have been posted in this thread including the link I posted above which I think Bird's lovers or enthusiasts will have much enjoyment.
  
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Re: From Gambit book - query
Reply #23 - 05/21/08 at 11:51:53
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thibdb13 wrote on 05/21/08 at 11:23:00:
trw wrote on 05/21/08 at 02:55:13:
I'm not really looking for a book though I'm just wondering about a specific line (as in my other post):

I have always wondered in this particular line of the bird's:
1. f4 e5. 2. fxe5 d6 3. exd6 Bxd6 4. Nf3 g5 5. d4 g4 6. Ne5 Bxe5 7. dxe5 Qxd1+ 8. Kxd1 Nc6 9. Bf4


Why 6.Ne5? Nh4 is enough to get an advantage and black's counterplay does not lead to concrete results.


6.Nh4?? Qxh4  Cheesy

Were you talking about 5.g3 ?  I think the choice between these two variations is mainly a matter of taste
  
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Re: From Gambit book - query
Reply #22 - 05/21/08 at 11:23:49
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thibdb13 wrote on 05/21/08 at 11:23:00:
trw wrote on 05/21/08 at 02:55:13:
I'm not really looking for a book though I'm just wondering about a specific line (as in my other post):

I have always wondered in this particular line of the bird's:
1. f4 e5. 2. fxe5 d6 3. exd6 Bxd6 4. Nf3 g5 5. d4 g4 6. Ne5 Bxe5 7. dxe5 Qxd1+ 8. Kxd1 Nc6 9. Bf4


Why 6.Ne5? Nh4 is enough to get an advantage and black's counterplay does not lead to concrete results.


For more details, you can have a look at Taylor's book about the Bird

  

Yusupov once said that The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7 but he is surely wrong.
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Re: From Gambit book - query
Reply #21 - 05/21/08 at 11:23:00
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trw wrote on 05/21/08 at 02:55:13:
I'm not really looking for a book though I'm just wondering about a specific line (as in my other post):

I have always wondered in this particular line of the bird's:
1. f4 e5. 2. fxe5 d6 3. exd6 Bxd6 4. Nf3 g5 5. d4 g4 6. Ne5 Bxe5 7. dxe5 Qxd1+ 8. Kxd1 Nc6 9. Bf4


Why 6.Ne5? Nh4 is enough to get an advantage and black's counterplay does not lead to concrete results.
  

Yusupov once said that The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7 but he is surely wrong.
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