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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) italian game; is it outdated? (Read 11447 times)
Markovich
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #23 - 01/13/09 at 15:16:08
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kylemeister wrote on 01/27/08 at 20:02:03:
One thing I think of in connexion with this stuff is a book from about 1980 called, I think, Understanding the Open Games (except Ruy Lopez).  It was written by a few American GM/IMs (people like Edmar Mednis, John Peters and Andrew Soltis) and published by RHM, who published some very nice books in those days.  


I bought several copies of this book during the 90s, when it was still available, and handed them out to my students at the time.  It really was a nice introduction to how to handle these systems.  Unfortunately it can't be obtained any more (I believe I did save a copy for myself, though).

As for the Scotch Gambit, it's scarcely a problem for Two Knights players, who would presumably play 4...Nf6.  That's how I play, anyway.  There are, of course, other fully adequate answers, such as 4...Bc5 5.c3 Nf6.  

I agree with MNb that the Evans may be White's best way to play the Italian if he wants to play in gambit fashion, though 4.d4 would probably also be fine in a club setting.  I would recommend meeting the Two Knights with 4.d4 exd4 5.0-0.  That should be good enough to win games in club play.  As one and one's opponents grew stronger, one could substitute 5.e5.
  

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wcywing
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #22 - 01/13/09 at 13:00:23
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i also have the abc's of the Evans Gambit, it looks good so far.  he even use Marin's book as a reference.
  
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cma6
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Another book on the open games.
Reply #21 - 02/12/08 at 00:44:24
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kylemeister wrote on 01/27/08 at 20:02:03:
One thing I think of in connexion with this stuff is a book from about 1980 called, I think, Understanding the Open Games (except Ruy Lopez).  It was written by a few American GM/IMs (people like Edmar Mednis, John Peters and Andrew Soltis) and published by RHM, who published some very nice books in those days.   


Let me add another book on the open games, "Beating the Open Games" by GM Mihail Marin, 2007 from Quality Chess Europe. I've been going through his chapters on the Italian Game for the last month.
   Marin's explanations of major themes are superb. The analysis, some of it undoubtedly original, is of a very high standard.

I have tested some of the analysis from Chapter 11, "Giuco Pianissimo" with Rybka: his analysis stands up very well.
                  
  
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Dragan Glas
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #20 - 02/09/08 at 04:13:35
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Greetings,

With regard to finding something to play against the Sicilian...

I know that some form of Classic system (with Be2) has been recommended elsewhere - although this can't be played against all Sicilians, as Nigel Davies points out - I was wondering if another variation, which bears a certain similarity to the gambits/games under discussion, might be a better choice!?

I was going to propose the Alapin (c3) Sicilian.

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #19 - 02/01/08 at 16:02:06
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MNb wrote on 01/31/08 at 02:17:29:
Neither 4.0-0 Bc5 5.d4 Bxd4 nor 4.0-0 d6 will lead to a Scotch or Göring Gambit. I am afraid 4.0-0 is just imprecise.


Several players down at the club play 4.0-0 hoping to go into a Max Lange after 4...Nf6, which offers White excellent practical chances (especially the juniors) against all but very booked up opponents.  If Black plays something else, then White can hold his d-pawn back and see how things develop.
  
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wcywing
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #18 - 01/31/08 at 02:32:10
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MNb wrote on 01/31/08 at 02:17:29:
Neither 4.0-0 Bc5 5.d4 Bxd4 nor 4.0-0 d6 will lead to a Scotch or Göring Gambit. I am afraid 4.0-0 is just imprecise.


that is true, however from my study white will have an initiative or an attack.   of course if i stick to 3. d4, exd4; 4. Bc4 will save some study time.
  
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MNb
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #17 - 01/31/08 at 02:17:29
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Neither 4.0-0 Bc5 5.d4 Bxd4 nor 4.0-0 d6 will lead to a Scotch or Göring Gambit. I am afraid 4.0-0 is just imprecise.
  

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wcywing
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #16 - 01/31/08 at 01:40:10
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i am also studying 1. e4, e5; 2. Nf3, Nc6; 3. Bc4, Bc5; 4.O-O followed by 5.d4  i like this because i can go for a scotch/goring gambit or a more positional style, if i wanted too.  i am also studying the goring gambit and scotch gambit.  there are many transpositions in this opening complex, lots of chances for black to make a mistake.  lots of thing to work with.  

i do like Acer's book because it has italian gambit and scotch/goring gambit, but it seems to skp around lot, hard to follow, and he seems to be a bit sac happy sometimes in some of the lines.  its a good read.  the regular scotch is also a good opening, until i graduate to ruy lopez.   
  
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #15 - 01/28/08 at 16:14:48
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MNb wrote on 01/28/08 at 01:51:59:
kylemeister wrote on 01/27/08 at 20:57:13:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Be7 5. c3 and here 5...dc 6. Qd5 isn't losing after 6...Nh6 7. Bxh6 0-0, though White is better.

That is quite questionable. In practice Black has done very well with his pair of bishops and the possibility of ...f5. I advice White to deviate with either 6.Nxc3 d6 with a favourable version of the Göring Gambit (4.c3 dxc3 5.Nxc3 d6 6.Bc4 Be7 is certaibly not Black's best defence) or even simply 5.Nxd4. This is a Hungarian (3.Bc4 Be7 4.d4 exd4 5.Nxd4); White has avoided 4...d6.


Well, this is interesting.  I've seen several views on this in print over the years.  Several decades ago David Levy wrote that White should play (5. c3 dc 6. Qd5 Nh6 7. Bxh6 0-0) 8. Nxc3 gh 9. Qh5 "with a crushing position."  But as I believe Pal Benko later wrote, "I'm afraid I don't see the crush after 9...Bf6 10. Qxh6 d6."  I believe 8. Bc1 Nb4 9. Qh5 had been advocated by somebody; I think Benko said he would prefer that line.  NCO thinks 8. Bxg7 Kxg7 9. Nxc3 is clearly better for White.  (White appeared to be scoring heavily from that position in Chessbase [online], but for some reason I couldn't get it to spit out all the games it says it found.)  Not clear to me, though.

Trifunovic and Poljakov point to 5...Na5"!" as leading to an edge for Black.  I think = may be more accurate -- but due to this I'm now inclined to accept your suggestion of 5. Nxd4, which seems to be "plus over equals."

  
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MNb
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #14 - 01/28/08 at 01:51:59
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kylemeister wrote on 01/27/08 at 20:57:13:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Be7 5. c3 and here 5...dc 6. Qd5 isn't losing after 6...Nh6 7. Bxh6 0-0, though White is better.

That is quite questionable. In practice Black has done very well with his pair of bishops and the possibility of ...f5. I advice White to deviate with either 6.Nxc3 d6 with a favourable version of the Göring Gambit (4.c3 dxc3 5.Nxc3 d6 6.Bc4 Be7 is certaibly not Black's best defence) or even simply 5.Nxd4. This is a Hungarian (3.Bc4 Be7 4.d4 exd4 5.Nxd4); White has avoided 4...d6.
  

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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #13 - 01/28/08 at 00:56:50
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Its good to see that sharp open games are still alive.  btw i use to have that RHM book, it got me started to play the petroff defense and the italian game.  that book is definatly good for introductions.
  
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #12 - 01/27/08 at 20:57:13
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While I'm at it, another game from the same tournament (as the game I posted earlier) -- another A player as Black, but this one takes 7 moves to be lost.  (Here 5...dc 6. Qd5 isn't losing after 6...Nh6 7. Bxh6 0-0, though White is better.)


[Event "Gibtelecom Masters"]
[Site "Gibraltar"]
[Date "2008.01.26"]
[Round "5.84"]
[White "Hagen, Anders Gjerdum"]
[Black "Reppen, Ellisiv"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C50"]
[WhiteElo "2049"]
[BlackElo "1918"]
[PlyCount "31"]
[EventDate "2008.01.22"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Be7 5. c3 Nf6 6. e5 Ne4 7. Bd5 Ng5 8.
Nxg5 Bxg5 9. Qh5 Qe7 10. Qxg5 Qxg5 11. Bxg5 dxc3 12. Nxc3 Nxe5 13. Nb5 O-O 14.
Nxc7 Rb8 15. Be7 Nd3+ 16. Kd2 1-0
  
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #11 - 01/27/08 at 20:02:03
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One thing I think of in connexion with this stuff is a book from about 1980 called, I think, Understanding the Open Games (except Ruy Lopez).  It was written by a few American GM/IMs (people like Edmar Mednis, John Peters and Andrew Soltis) and published by RHM, who published some very nice books in those days.
  
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wcywing
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #10 - 01/27/08 at 19:38:16
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MNb wrote on 01/27/08 at 10:37:21:
Wcywing, I definitely do not recommend to play the Sicilian as Black now for two reasons. It will take too much time as you also study a main line from the Ruy Lopez. This time you should rather spend on middle game and endgame. The second reason is that on your level literally nobody will play 2.Nf3 and 3.d4.
But as you play 1.e4 yourself you must have something against the Sicilian yourself.


good point, i will learn the sicilian later, when i was playing in tournaments anything is possible, i think i was of a few that did play e4, nf3 and most people don't know how to defend against it.   Huh  they were even higher rated than me.  

Sveshnikov seems to be the man to learn from especially on the open games, Acers recommends most of his moves, especially in the open games and the Bb5 sicilian.  as for the scotch game i might look at the starting out book or the book by Lane; i have read Watson's review on Dzindi's book on what to play as white, that was funny  Grin  i WON'T get that book.  
  
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #9 - 01/27/08 at 12:55:26
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Hello,

For the scotch gambit move order, it is useful to look at Sveshnikov games too, i.e. after

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 ...

If 4... Bc5 5.c3 Nf6 6.e5 d5 7.Bb5 Ne4 8.cxd4 Bb6 or 8... Bb4+ as recommended in Kaufmann book.

Or if 4...Nf6 5.e5 d5 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Nxd4 Then there is the straightforward 7...Bd7 for black or he can try 7...Bc5. After this last move, there was a thread by Mnb were he thought black had a good game after 8Be3, but Zak in his book "Improve chess results" thought white had the advantage. Sveshnikov has also play 8.0.0, so I don,t think these opening lines have been completely worked out.

Bye John S
  
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