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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) italian game; is it outdated? (Read 11443 times)
Markovich
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #23 - 01/13/09 at 15:16:08
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kylemeister wrote on 01/27/08 at 20:02:03:
One thing I think of in connexion with this stuff is a book from about 1980 called, I think, Understanding the Open Games (except Ruy Lopez).  It was written by a few American GM/IMs (people like Edmar Mednis, John Peters and Andrew Soltis) and published by RHM, who published some very nice books in those days.  


I bought several copies of this book during the 90s, when it was still available, and handed them out to my students at the time.  It really was a nice introduction to how to handle these systems.  Unfortunately it can't be obtained any more (I believe I did save a copy for myself, though).

As for the Scotch Gambit, it's scarcely a problem for Two Knights players, who would presumably play 4...Nf6.  That's how I play, anyway.  There are, of course, other fully adequate answers, such as 4...Bc5 5.c3 Nf6.  

I agree with MNb that the Evans may be White's best way to play the Italian if he wants to play in gambit fashion, though 4.d4 would probably also be fine in a club setting.  I would recommend meeting the Two Knights with 4.d4 exd4 5.0-0.  That should be good enough to win games in club play.  As one and one's opponents grew stronger, one could substitute 5.e5.
  

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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #22 - 01/13/09 at 13:00:23
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i also have the abc's of the Evans Gambit, it looks good so far.  he even use Marin's book as a reference.
  
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Another book on the open games.
Reply #21 - 02/12/08 at 00:44:24
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kylemeister wrote on 01/27/08 at 20:02:03:
One thing I think of in connexion with this stuff is a book from about 1980 called, I think, Understanding the Open Games (except Ruy Lopez).  It was written by a few American GM/IMs (people like Edmar Mednis, John Peters and Andrew Soltis) and published by RHM, who published some very nice books in those days.   


Let me add another book on the open games, "Beating the Open Games" by GM Mihail Marin, 2007 from Quality Chess Europe. I've been going through his chapters on the Italian Game for the last month.
   Marin's explanations of major themes are superb. The analysis, some of it undoubtedly original, is of a very high standard.

I have tested some of the analysis from Chapter 11, "Giuco Pianissimo" with Rybka: his analysis stands up very well.
                  
  
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #20 - 02/09/08 at 04:13:35
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Greetings,

With regard to finding something to play against the Sicilian...

I know that some form of Classic system (with Be2) has been recommended elsewhere - although this can't be played against all Sicilians, as Nigel Davies points out - I was wondering if another variation, which bears a certain similarity to the gambits/games under discussion, might be a better choice!?

I was going to propose the Alapin (c3) Sicilian.

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #19 - 02/01/08 at 16:02:06
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MNb wrote on 01/31/08 at 02:17:29:
Neither 4.0-0 Bc5 5.d4 Bxd4 nor 4.0-0 d6 will lead to a Scotch or Göring Gambit. I am afraid 4.0-0 is just imprecise.


Several players down at the club play 4.0-0 hoping to go into a Max Lange after 4...Nf6, which offers White excellent practical chances (especially the juniors) against all but very booked up opponents.  If Black plays something else, then White can hold his d-pawn back and see how things develop.
  
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #18 - 01/31/08 at 02:32:10
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MNb wrote on 01/31/08 at 02:17:29:
Neither 4.0-0 Bc5 5.d4 Bxd4 nor 4.0-0 d6 will lead to a Scotch or Göring Gambit. I am afraid 4.0-0 is just imprecise.


that is true, however from my study white will have an initiative or an attack.   of course if i stick to 3. d4, exd4; 4. Bc4 will save some study time.
  
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MNb
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #17 - 01/31/08 at 02:17:29
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Neither 4.0-0 Bc5 5.d4 Bxd4 nor 4.0-0 d6 will lead to a Scotch or Göring Gambit. I am afraid 4.0-0 is just imprecise.
  

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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #16 - 01/31/08 at 01:40:10
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i am also studying 1. e4, e5; 2. Nf3, Nc6; 3. Bc4, Bc5; 4.O-O followed by 5.d4  i like this because i can go for a scotch/goring gambit or a more positional style, if i wanted too.  i am also studying the goring gambit and scotch gambit.  there are many transpositions in this opening complex, lots of chances for black to make a mistake.  lots of thing to work with.  

i do like Acer's book because it has italian gambit and scotch/goring gambit, but it seems to skp around lot, hard to follow, and he seems to be a bit sac happy sometimes in some of the lines.  its a good read.  the regular scotch is also a good opening, until i graduate to ruy lopez.   
  
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #15 - 01/28/08 at 16:14:48
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MNb wrote on 01/28/08 at 01:51:59:
kylemeister wrote on 01/27/08 at 20:57:13:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Be7 5. c3 and here 5...dc 6. Qd5 isn't losing after 6...Nh6 7. Bxh6 0-0, though White is better.

That is quite questionable. In practice Black has done very well with his pair of bishops and the possibility of ...f5. I advice White to deviate with either 6.Nxc3 d6 with a favourable version of the Göring Gambit (4.c3 dxc3 5.Nxc3 d6 6.Bc4 Be7 is certaibly not Black's best defence) or even simply 5.Nxd4. This is a Hungarian (3.Bc4 Be7 4.d4 exd4 5.Nxd4); White has avoided 4...d6.


Well, this is interesting.  I've seen several views on this in print over the years.  Several decades ago David Levy wrote that White should play (5. c3 dc 6. Qd5 Nh6 7. Bxh6 0-0) 8. Nxc3 gh 9. Qh5 "with a crushing position."  But as I believe Pal Benko later wrote, "I'm afraid I don't see the crush after 9...Bf6 10. Qxh6 d6."  I believe 8. Bc1 Nb4 9. Qh5 had been advocated by somebody; I think Benko said he would prefer that line.  NCO thinks 8. Bxg7 Kxg7 9. Nxc3 is clearly better for White.  (White appeared to be scoring heavily from that position in Chessbase [online], but for some reason I couldn't get it to spit out all the games it says it found.)  Not clear to me, though.

Trifunovic and Poljakov point to 5...Na5"!" as leading to an edge for Black.  I think = may be more accurate -- but due to this I'm now inclined to accept your suggestion of 5. Nxd4, which seems to be "plus over equals."

  
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MNb
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #14 - 01/28/08 at 01:51:59
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kylemeister wrote on 01/27/08 at 20:57:13:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Be7 5. c3 and here 5...dc 6. Qd5 isn't losing after 6...Nh6 7. Bxh6 0-0, though White is better.

That is quite questionable. In practice Black has done very well with his pair of bishops and the possibility of ...f5. I advice White to deviate with either 6.Nxc3 d6 with a favourable version of the Göring Gambit (4.c3 dxc3 5.Nxc3 d6 6.Bc4 Be7 is certaibly not Black's best defence) or even simply 5.Nxd4. This is a Hungarian (3.Bc4 Be7 4.d4 exd4 5.Nxd4); White has avoided 4...d6.
  

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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #13 - 01/28/08 at 00:56:50
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Its good to see that sharp open games are still alive.  btw i use to have that RHM book, it got me started to play the petroff defense and the italian game.  that book is definatly good for introductions.
  
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #12 - 01/27/08 at 20:57:13
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While I'm at it, another game from the same tournament (as the game I posted earlier) -- another A player as Black, but this one takes 7 moves to be lost.  (Here 5...dc 6. Qd5 isn't losing after 6...Nh6 7. Bxh6 0-0, though White is better.)


[Event "Gibtelecom Masters"]
[Site "Gibraltar"]
[Date "2008.01.26"]
[Round "5.84"]
[White "Hagen, Anders Gjerdum"]
[Black "Reppen, Ellisiv"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C50"]
[WhiteElo "2049"]
[BlackElo "1918"]
[PlyCount "31"]
[EventDate "2008.01.22"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Be7 5. c3 Nf6 6. e5 Ne4 7. Bd5 Ng5 8.
Nxg5 Bxg5 9. Qh5 Qe7 10. Qxg5 Qxg5 11. Bxg5 dxc3 12. Nxc3 Nxe5 13. Nb5 O-O 14.
Nxc7 Rb8 15. Be7 Nd3+ 16. Kd2 1-0
  
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #11 - 01/27/08 at 20:02:03
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One thing I think of in connexion with this stuff is a book from about 1980 called, I think, Understanding the Open Games (except Ruy Lopez).  It was written by a few American GM/IMs (people like Edmar Mednis, John Peters and Andrew Soltis) and published by RHM, who published some very nice books in those days.
  
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #10 - 01/27/08 at 19:38:16
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MNb wrote on 01/27/08 at 10:37:21:
Wcywing, I definitely do not recommend to play the Sicilian as Black now for two reasons. It will take too much time as you also study a main line from the Ruy Lopez. This time you should rather spend on middle game and endgame. The second reason is that on your level literally nobody will play 2.Nf3 and 3.d4.
But as you play 1.e4 yourself you must have something against the Sicilian yourself.


good point, i will learn the sicilian later, when i was playing in tournaments anything is possible, i think i was of a few that did play e4, nf3 and most people don't know how to defend against it.   Huh  they were even higher rated than me.  

Sveshnikov seems to be the man to learn from especially on the open games, Acers recommends most of his moves, especially in the open games and the Bb5 sicilian.  as for the scotch game i might look at the starting out book or the book by Lane; i have read Watson's review on Dzindi's book on what to play as white, that was funny  Grin  i WON'T get that book.  
  
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #9 - 01/27/08 at 12:55:26
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Hello,

For the scotch gambit move order, it is useful to look at Sveshnikov games too, i.e. after

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 ...

If 4... Bc5 5.c3 Nf6 6.e5 d5 7.Bb5 Ne4 8.cxd4 Bb6 or 8... Bb4+ as recommended in Kaufmann book.

Or if 4...Nf6 5.e5 d5 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Nxd4 Then there is the straightforward 7...Bd7 for black or he can try 7...Bc5. After this last move, there was a thread by Mnb were he thought black had a good game after 8Be3, but Zak in his book "Improve chess results" thought white had the advantage. Sveshnikov has also play 8.0.0, so I don,t think these opening lines have been completely worked out.

Bye John S
  
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #8 - 01/27/08 at 10:37:21
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Wcywing, I definitely do not recommend to play the Sicilian as Black now for two reasons. It will take too much time as you also study a main line from the Ruy Lopez. This time you should rather spend on middle game and endgame. The second reason is that on your level literally nobody will play 2.Nf3 and 3.d4.
But as you play 1.e4 yourself you must have something against the Sicilian yourself.

4...Bb4+ 5.c3 dxc3 6.0-0 is somewhat inferior because of an old Steinitz suggestion: cxb2 7.Bxb2 Nf6 8.Ng5 (8.a3 Ba5 9.e5 Nh5!?) 0-0 9.e5 Nxe5! 10.Bxe5 d5. But 6.bxc3 is fun, eg Ba5 7.0-0 Nge7 8.Ng5 Ne5 9.Bb3 h6 (best d5 10.exd5 +=; 0-0 10.f4 N5g6 11.Qh5 or even 0-0 10.Nxh7) 10.f4 hxg5 11.fxe5 0-0 12.Bxg5 eg Qe8 13.Bf6!
  

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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #7 - 01/27/08 at 00:35:52
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its amazing to see that even higer level players get lost in an opening, when i was a 1200 rating, i was beating 1300-1400's using the italian game and they did not correctly, one tried an early Qf6 or an early h6  Shocked.  i don't think 1700's on up will make those errors. 

i will probaly use the italain game and the scotch game/gambit before i learn the subtle ruy lopez.
  
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #6 - 01/26/08 at 17:49:40
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Speaking of the Scotch Gambit, here is a sample from a game I just came across, in which a class A player (in US terms) manages to be lost in 6 moves.  I have the impression that 4...Bb4+ is common at lower levels, though it has long been considered bad.  As far as I know, 6. 0-0 is also very good for White.   


[Event "6th Gibtelecom Masters"]
[Site "Gibraltar ENG"]
[Date "2008.01.23"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Arnott,J"]
[Black "Gonzalez Amaya,M"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2117"]
[BlackElo "1823"]
[EventDate "2008.01.22"]
[ECO "C44"]

1. e4 e5 2. d4 exd4 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. Bc4 Bb4+ 5. c3 dxc3 6. bxc3 Be7 7. Qd5
Nh6 8. Bxh6 O-O 9. Be3 d6 10. O-O Be6 11. Qd3 Bg4 12. Nbd2 Bf6 13. Bd4 Bxd4
14. cxd4 Qf6 15. Rab1 Ne7 16. Rxb7 c5 17. e5 1-0
  
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #5 - 01/26/08 at 16:36:03
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i will consider scotch game/gambit, at the club level at least when i played, the most aggressive/tatial player wins.  

i have something for the philidor/petroff players.  i use to be a petroff player but got frustrated when people played drawing/boring lines like the Qe2 or an early Nc3  Angry  i am learning the open games as black, i have Marin's book, but i will probaly should get Emms book, i heard it is much better.  against the ruy i will play the archangel/new archangel more than likely.  

i will start a sicilian thread, i will probaly play accelerated dragon or maybe the Pelikan.  

  
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #4 - 01/26/08 at 03:10:27
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wcywing wrote on 01/26/08 at 01:38:53:
i know at the club level anything is sound, even the BDG   Wink


Which means you should keep three things in mind:
1. chose an opening that helps you to learn something. Ie I learned quite something by playing the Danish, though I would not recommend it these days. But I am convinced, like Markovich, that playing these lines of the Italian will help you to improve your tactical abilities, your feeling for sacrificial play (compensation on the long term) and also endgames.
2. do not make my mistake. Do not play these lines too long (two or three years should suffice, let's say until you have an ELO of 1700 or something) and do not spend too much time analyzing them. You must improve your endgame (get yourself some elementary endgame book), your tactics (abundance of choice) and positional play (again a lot more available than 25 years ago).
3. make sure you play different kind of openings. Eg I also second Markovich' recommendation 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.c4 - teaches you about the IQP.

I agree with Kylemeister that you should consider 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4. This  opens the game immediately, so it increases your chances of a tactical melee. 4...Bc5 (Nf6 5.0-0 see my previous post; d6 5.Nxd4 is a variation of the Hungarian) 5.c3 Nf6 (dxc3 6.Nxc3 d6 7.o-o and 8.Bg5 is a kind of Göring Gambit; d3 6.0-0 d6 7.b4 Bb6 8.a4) 6.0-0 is the nameless Italian Gambit mentioned above.
Alas such a nice transpositional trick does not exist for the Evans Gambit.

As you intend to turn to the Ruy Lopez, it is better to stick to 2.Nf3 (2.d4 also has some transpositional nuances) as you will have to find something against the Petrov and Philidor anyway.
Keep track with the repertoire suggested by Greet. One day - rather sooner than later - you will need it.

Shouldn't you open a similar thread on the Sicilian as well? For 1.e4 players it is the second opening to master, immediately after the Open Games.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #3 - 01/26/08 at 01:38:53
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MNb wrote on 01/25/08 at 23:38:24:
I Have you ever considered the Evans?
II Somewhat obscure, but not worse than the G-M is 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.0-0, main line Nxe4 7.cxd4 d5! (Be7 8.d5 is fun for White) 8.dxc5 dxc4 9.Qe2 Qd3 10.Re1 f5 (Bf5? drops a piece; so does Qxe2 11.Rxe2 Bf5? 12.g4) 11.Nc3 0-0 12.Nxe4 fxe4 13.Qxe4 Bf5 14.Qh4 Rad8 (Black has other options) 15.Be3 Qd5 16.Rac1 Bd3 17.Qg3 about equal. White must beware of 17.a3?/17.h3? Rxf3!

What do you play after 3...Nf6 ? I suggest 4.d4 exd4 5.0-0 (evt 5.e5) Nxe4 (Bc5 6.c3 transposes to the Italian above) 6.Re1 d5 7.Bxd5 Qxd5 8.Nc3

On higher level the most popular version of the Italian is a setup with c3 and d3, but this leads to a slow manoeuvring game.


yes, i do play d4 against the two knights, i use to play Ng5 but i never like playing against the Na5 variation.  i will look at the other variations you mentioned.  the evans gambit is a good possibility, if Kasparov used it in a match, it has to be good right?  Cheesy

i know at the club level anything is sound, even the BDG   Wink  i know the italian game is good at club level however i like to improve my chess, and play against stronger opposition, i don't know if the italian game can still cut the mustard.  

i have thought about the ruy lopez, especially the worrall system.  i have Geet's book and i'm still reading it, have not tried it yet though.  i know it is very different than the italian game.    

i will look at the scotch gambit and 4 N's scotch game.  i will probaly still use the italian against equal or weaker opposition, not sure against much higher rated opponents.  

however i do know it the players that wins the games, not the opening, unless it is unsound.   Smiley
  
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #2 - 01/26/08 at 01:16:12
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I would have to say that for a player rated about 1400, concern about whether the Italian is "outdated" is misplaced.  You could also consider the Scotch Gambit 3. d4 ed 4. Bc4 (generally transposing to a 2 Knights or Giuoco unless Black plays something inferior) or (leaving Italy) the Four Knights Scotch.  (For example, I can think of a couple of GMs who managed to lose rather quickly in the latter in the last few years ...)
  
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Re: italian game; is it outdated?
Reply #1 - 01/25/08 at 23:38:24
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I have never been convinced by 4.d4, 4.0-0 Nf6 5.d4 and the Greco-Moller. But I have a few Italian suggestions for you.
I Have you ever considered the Evans?
II Somewhat obscure, but not worse than the G-M is 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.0-0, main line Nxe4 7.cxd4 d5! (Be7 8.d5 is fun for White) 8.dxc5 dxc4 9.Qe2 Qd3 10.Re1 f5 (Bf5? drops a piece; so does Qxe2 11.Rxe2 Bf5? 12.g4) 11.Nc3 0-0 12.Nxe4 fxe4 13.Qxe4 Bf5 14.Qh4 Rad8 (Black has other options) 15.Be3 Qd5 16.Rac1 Bd3 17.Qg3 about equal. White must beware of 17.a3?/17.h3? Rxf3!

What do you play after 3...Nf6 ? I suggest 4.d4 exd4 5.0-0 (evt 5.e5) Nxe4 (Bc5 6.c3 transposes to the Italian above) 6.Re1 d5 7.Bxd5 Qxd5 8.Nc3
a) 8...Qa5 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Neg5 0-0-0 11.Nxe6 fxe6 12.Rxe6.
b) 8...Qd8 9.Rxe4+ Be7 10.Nxd4 f5 11.Bh6!? fxe4 12.Bxg7 Rf8 13.Qh5+ Rf7 14.Rad1 Qd6 15.Ndb5 Qf4 16.Nd5 Qxf2+ 17.Kh1 Bd7 18.Nf6+ Bxf6 19.Nxc7+ Ke7 20.Nd5+ and draw.
c) 8...Qh5 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Bg5 Bd6 11.Nxd6+ cxd6 12.Bf4.
As soon as your opponents are capable of handling these lines well it is time to change your repertoire anyway.

On higher level the most popular version of the Italian is a setup with c3 and d3, but this leads to a slow manoeuvring game.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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italian game; is it outdated?
01/25/08 at 21:42:26
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my main opening as white is the italian game, i like playing the italian gambit either  by 4. d4!? OR 4.O-O, 5. d4!?  i have read Jude Acers's book but i am not convinced at his miami variation, and the variations i play he seems to refute with a simple d6.  the variations he has might be refuted in opening lanes on chess cafe.  i will provide a link if anyone wants to look at that.  

the main lines like Bd2 and Nc3 !? moller gambit seem to be dated.  perhaps i have not done enough research.  i have had many good wins with it even against higher rated opponents, but i feel it may be to simple to equalize or even to beat.  maybe i am a bit paranoid.  i'm curious to what everyone thinks.  

i am rated 1414 and like tactical openings, but i think italian game is outdated.     any comments or ideas will be appreciated.
  
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