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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Semi-slav help! (Read 21992 times)
kylemeister
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Re: Semi-slav help!
Reply #29 - 02/02/08 at 17:43:18
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lnn2 wrote on 01/31/08 at 02:12:51:
 

Werle-Hort was the subject of a Daniel King Move by Move column in CBM recently. A real gem. Anyway i think white also has a nice game after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 0-0 7. Qc2 Nbd7 8.0-0-0, similar to play in Werle-Hort, imho this is a critical continuation because opposite side castling is a direct way to emphasise Black's loss of tempo c7-c6-c5. It works even better if black weakens himself with an early ...h6.
 


Speaking of that ...

[Event "6th Gibtelecom Masters"]
[Site "Gibraltar ENG"]
[Date "2008.01.27"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Mikhalevski,V"]
[Black "Speelman,J"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2632"]
[BlackElo "2491"]
[EventDate "2008.01.22"]
[ECO "D61"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5. Bg5 h6 6. Bh4 Be7 7. e3 O-O 8.
Qc2 Nbd7 9. O-O-O a5 10. Rg1 dxc4 11. g4 b5 12. g5 hxg5 13. Nxg5 Nb6 14.
Be2 b4 15. Nce4 Nxe4 16. Qxe4 f5 17. Qxc6 Qd5 18. Qxb6 Ra6 19. Qc7 Bd6 20.
Qxg7+ Kxg7 21. Bf3 Qb5 22. Nf7+ Kh7 23. Bh5 Rxf7 24. Bxf7 Ra7 25. Bg8+ Kh6
26. Bg5+ Kh5 27. Bf6 f4 28. d5 c3 29. dxe6 cxb2+ 30. Bxb2 Qc4+ 31. Kb1 Bxe6
32. Bxe6 Qxe6 33. exf4 Bxf4 34. Rde1 Qf5+ 35. Ka1 a4 36. Re8 a3 37. Bd4 Rd7
38. Rh8+ Bh6 0-1


  
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MNb
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Re: Semi-slav help!
Reply #28 - 02/01/08 at 23:14:09
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Intriguing, I had not noticed this transposition. Anyway I always have had the idea, that White cannot win this fight for the tempo. He does not have enough useful waiting moves.
  

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Re: Semi-slav help!
Reply #27 - 02/01/08 at 11:24:43
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7...c6 8 Bd3 a6 9 c5 is a transposition to the (or a, at least) main line of the Swiss (7...a6) Black plays either 9...b6 or 9....e5 and theory continues (eg Topalov-Heine Nielsen from somewhere (Dortmund?) a couple of years ago.

As Paddy says 7 ...a6 8 Qc2 c6 9 a3 was once considered quite the thing (the so-called fight for the tempo). I doubt this early ..c6 in an Orthodox is so bad, certainly if met with Qc2. I'm beginning to think Georgiev and Inn2 are right and 7 Bd3 might be the best answer. But where is the fight for the tempo then?!

I seem to recall Andrew Martin doing an article on-line somewhere on the Swiss. I can't now find it. Anyone remember where it was? I thought it was on Jeremy Silman's site, but I seem to have been wrong.
  
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MNb
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Re: Semi-slav help!
Reply #26 - 02/01/08 at 03:01:43
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8.a3 is not very challenging according to Taimanov 1980. According to him 8...Ne4 also is a good answer.
I was thinking of something like 8.Bd3 a6 9.c5! (exclam from T. again).
  

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Paddy
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Re: Semi-slav help!
Reply #25 - 02/01/08 at 00:19:30
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[quote author=MNb (...)The combination of ...a6 and ...c6 cannot be a good one though. The whole idea of ...a6 indeed is to play ...dxc4 and ...c5, similar to the Meran.
[/quote]

The combination of ...c6 and ...a6 was very frequent at one time and often amounts to no more than a transposition. First, a game that every serious player should be familiar with:

[Event "Karlsbad"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1923.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Gruenfeld, E."]
[Black "Alekhine, A."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "D64"]
[PlyCount "68"]
[EventDate "1923.??.??"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. c4 d5 4. Nc3 Be7 5. Bg5 Nbd7 6. e3 O-O 7. Rc1 c6 8. Qc2 a6 9. a3 h6 10. Bh4 Re8 11. Bd3 dxc4 12. Bxc4 b5 13. Ba2 c5 14. Rd1 cxd4 15. Nxd4 Qb6 16. Bb1 Bb7 17. O-O Rac8 18. Qd2 Ne5 19. Bxf6 Bxf6 20. Qc2 g6 21. Qe2 Nc4 22. Be4 Bg7 23. Bxb7 Qxb7 24. Rc1 e5 25. Nb3 e4 26. Nd4 Red8 27. Rfd1 Ne5 28. Na2 Nd3 29. Rxc8 Qxc8 30. f3 Rxd4 31. fxe4 Nf4 32. exf4 Qc4 33. Qxc4 Rxd1+ 34. Qf1 Bd4+ 0-1

And a more modern example that I also like:

[Event "Portoroz plof  (Petropolis izt 2-3pl)"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1973.??.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Polugaevsky, L."]
[Black "Portisch, L."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "D63"]
[WhiteElo "2625"]
[BlackElo "2650"]
[PlyCount "107"]
[EventDate "1973.??.??"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. Nc3 Be7 5. Bg5 O-O 6. e3 Nbd7 7. Rc1 a6 8. a3 c6 9. Bd3 h6 10. Bh4 dxc4 11. Bxc4 b5 12. Ba2 c5 13. O-O Bb7 14. dxc5 Nxc5 15. Nd4 Rc8 16. f3 Qb6 17. b4 Ncd7 18. Bf2 Bd6 19. e4 Qc7 20. g3 Qb8 21. Qe2 Ne5 22. Rfd1 Rfd8 23. Nxe6 fxe6 24. Bxe6+ Kh8 25. f4 Rxc3 26. Rxc3 Nxe4 27. Re3 Nxf2 28. Kxf2 Nc4 29. Bxc4 bxc4 30. Qxc4 Rf8 31. Rd4 Be5 32. Rde4 Bxe4 33. Rxe4 Qb6+ 34. Kg2 Bf6 35. Re6 Qb5 36. Qxb5 axb5 37. Rb6 Ra8 38. Rxb5 Rxa3 39. h4 Bc3 40. Rb6 Be1 41. Rg6 Bxb4 42. h5 Be1 43. Kh3 Kg8 44. Kg2 Kf7 45. Kh3 Re3 46. Kg2 Re6 47. Rg4 Ra6 48. Rh4 Ra2+ 49. Kh3 Bf2 50. Kg4 Ra4 51. Kf3 Bd4 52. Kg4 Bf6 53. Rh1 Ra1 54. Rh3 0-1

  
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MNb
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Re: Semi-slav help!
Reply #24 - 01/31/08 at 20:24:58
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kylemeister wrote on 01/31/08 at 17:52:55:
Well, 8. c5 is a main line after 7...a6 (whereupon Black plays 8...c6).  I even have the impression that it's the most common, though books seem to think more highly of 8. cd (which seems counterintuitive to me, since it would seem that there ...a6 is useful, and the c1-Rook misplaced) ...


It is my impression that 7...a6 8.c5 is harmless, as Black can force ....e5 at some stage. The combination of ...a6 and ...c6 cannot be a good one though. The whole idea of ...a6 indeed is to play ...dxc4 and ...c5, similar to the Meran.
After 7...a6 8.cxd5 exd5 it is not so clear to me if ...a6 is more useful and the c1-rook is misplaced. In the regular Exchange Black often plays ...a5. At the other hand the c1-rook supports the manoeuvre Nc3-a4-c5. The biggest benefit for Black playing the Exchange with this move order seems to me that White has committed him/herself to x.Nf3. No castling queenside, no Nge2, f3, e4 lines.
  

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kylemeister
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Re: Semi-slav help!
Reply #23 - 01/31/08 at 17:52:55
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Well, 8. c5 is a main line after 7...a6 (whereupon Black plays 8...c6).  I even have the impression that it's the most common, though books seem to think more highly of 8. cd (which seems counterintuitive to me, since it would seem that there ...a6 is useful, and the c1-Rook misplaced) ...
  
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Re: Semi-slav help!
Reply #22 - 01/31/08 at 17:42:54
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Thanks, Paddy.  And like I said, I don't much credit this Swiss-style play with a tempo already expended on ...c6.  For one thing, I would think that after ...a6, White could consider a timely c4-c5.
  

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Re: Semi-slav help!
Reply #21 - 01/31/08 at 13:47:20
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kylemeister wrote on 01/31/08 at 05:01:55:
By "Carlsbad" I was thinking of 7. Rc1 a6, after which Black, if allowed, plays ...dc, ...b5 etc., 


Generally accepted nomenclature:

After the typical sequence 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Bg5 Be7 5 e3 0-0 6 Nf3 Nbd7 7 Rc1,

7...a6 introduces the Swiss defence, so named because a group of Swiss players, notably Henneberger, analysed it in the 1920s, focusing on strengthening Black's game in the new structure that arises after the critical 8 c5 (attributed to A.Rabinovich, 1922).

8 cxd5 exd5 is the Carlsbad variation, since this exchange was played in a similar position three times in the Carlsbad 1923 event. Later the term "Carlsbad structure" began to be used to cover the QGD Exchange structure generally, not just after ...a6. (But Watson confines the use of Carlsbad to the QGD Exchange with Nf3. I'm not sure that this is a particularly useful distinction.)

The Swiss defence was extensively analysed in the 1920s and various tweaks were tried by both sides. White often tried to make all possible useful moves before playing Bd3, so as not to lose a tempo. Black experimented with inserting ...c6 and/or ...h6.

The evolution of the QGD does not seem to be very well covered in modern books, although Kasparov's DVD and certain annotated games in his My Great Predecessors series are useful, as is Watson's Mastering the Chess Openings Volume 2. An interesting older source is Chess from Morphy to Bovinnik by Imre Koenig.

When Ziatdinov was having his great run of success in US Swiss events a few years ago his main black weapon against 1 d4 was the Swiss defence (an odd choice in Swisses, you would think, but it worked for him) and so anyone interested in playing this line for Black should find his games and annotations useful.
  
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Re: Semi-slav help!
Reply #20 - 01/31/08 at 11:44:14
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It's interesting how different cultures/places/people use the same names to describe different openings. I would have said Carlsbad just meant the QGD Exchange structure, whether with the rook on c1 or b1 and with or without ...a6.

Markovich explained the ...h6 point better than me, of course, (or at least made an extra point I should have made: if you're going for Capablanca's ...dxc4...Nd5 freeing manoeuvre then you can't have ...h6 in because you won't succeed in forcing the exchange of the g5 bishop. That's why the Lasker order you have it in and not the Orthodox one, which in turn is why people play like Karpov against the Lasker (Bb3/exd4) and like Rubinstein against the Orthodox (de/Ne5/f4).

In Werle-Hort, I suppose that the early ...Nbd7 also makes the Lasker less effective in that if 8 Rc1 (Markovich) Ne4 9 Bxe7 Qxe7 10 cxd5 Nxc3 11 bxc3 exd5 Black would normally go on with ...Nc6, but now he can't.

Nigel Short sometimes plays this early ...Nbd7 though (3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Nf3 Nbd7 is often perceived as a good way of discouraging 5 Bf4 ni view of 5...dxc4. I don't know what he does later though.
  
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Re: Semi-slav help!
Reply #19 - 01/31/08 at 05:01:55
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By "Carlsbad" I was thinking of 7. Rc1 a6, after which Black, if allowed, plays ...dc, ...b5 etc., but I had the vague recollection that he sometimes needs to stop for ...c6 along the way.  There is also 7. Rc1 c6 8. Bd3 dc (or ...h6 first) 9. Bxc4 b5 10. Bd3 a6 etc. -- a number of GMs have played that way, and ECO and NCO think those lines should be just slightly better for White.  In doing a quick comparison with Georgiev-Houska and Vitiugov-Kharitonov, it appears that ECO thinks that Black should use the inclusion of ...a6 to play a quicker ...c5 than Black was able to play in those games.      
  
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MNb
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Re: Semi-slav help!
Reply #18 - 01/31/08 at 02:52:49
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Markovich wrote on 01/31/08 at 01:50:57:

Carlsbad to me means the Exchange QGD with Rb1, b4.  Or do you mean an early ...a6, ...dxc4, ...c5?


According to Taimanov and Euwe the Carlsbad arises after 7.Rc1 a6 8.cxd5 exd5. So it is an Exchange with the moves Rc1 and a6 included.
  

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lnn2
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Re: Semi-slav help!
Reply #17 - 01/31/08 at 02:12:51
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The way Georgiev played against Houska (7. Bd3) seems critical. The point being that the interpolation of Bg5 and Be7 favours White in the Meran who can play Bxf6 anytime, if Black replies Nbd7xf6 or Be7xf6, then he loses control of the c5 square. See recent game Vitiugov-Kharitonov (annotated by Babula in Megabase/CBM) for similar example. 

Werle-Hort was the subject of a Daniel King Move by Move column in CBM recently. A real gem. Anyway i think white also has a nice game after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 0-0 7. Qc2 Nbd7 8.0-0-0, similar to play in Werle-Hort, imho this is a critical continuation because opposite side castling is a direct way to emphasise Black's loss of tempo c7-c6-c5. It works even better if black weakens himself with an early ...h6.
 
8. Rd1 is also good for safer souls, it has more top-level adherents but requires abit more sophistication, i.e. White's best reply to most of Black's moves is 9. a3.
  
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Re: Semi-slav help!
Reply #16 - 01/31/08 at 01:55:47
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JonHecht wrote on 01/31/08 at 00:48:08:
Thanks, everyone. Sorry about my ignorance with the semi. Despite being part of an openings forum, I have never really been into openings... probably why I play 1. Nf3 and the Alekhine. Smiley

Oh, I'll go with the slav. I'll just look at a couple games, particularly with the e4 gambit and Ne5. Smiley 


Thanks,

Jonathan


Well then, get into openings!  That's what this site is about, and you'll discover that it pays off.   

Also I don't understand what the Slav has to do with the line we've been addressing.
  

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Re: Semi-slav help!
Reply #15 - 01/31/08 at 01:50:57
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kylemeister wrote on 01/30/08 at 22:17:26:
I presume Black would play in a Carlsbadian way after 8. Rc1 (rather than ...dc and ...Nd5).  .



Carlsbad to me means the Exchange QGD with Rb1, b4.  Or do you mean an early ...a6, ...dxc4, ...c5?  If the latter, it surely can't help that Black has spent a tempo on ...c6, can it??  The entire idea of transposing to the Orthodox with an early ...c6 is weak, for the reasons that I've said.  If Black wants to play a Meran, that is most excellent, but don't meander into a suboptimal Orthodox, for crying out loud.

The QGD has a certain discipline, you know?  Not just anything works fine.  That's why 1.d4, 2.c4 scores so well.
  

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