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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice. (Read 27964 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #21 - 04/11/08 at 12:46:05
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Below is what I wrote in my original "Panther" post. I guess Stigma is referring to the line I call "(2)" below, and yes, I'm sure this is one of the stiffest challenges. (NB: here, I think 8 ...Bg4!? needs looking at as well.) Should it put Black off or not? -- it would be good to get a debate going about this ...

******

The Panther: 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 Nc6 3 Nf3 d6!?

I couldnt resist! Having had a look at urusovs sites on this (see http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/kenilworthian/2006/02/panther-part-one.html) I thought Id start a separate thread on this interesting system.

As Uberdeker pointed out in another thread, it’s essentially an Old Indian with ...Nc6. It can be reached via a number of move orders, however (for which see Urusov’s site). I chose the order above just for ease of setting out the main variations, since White has a number of fourth-move choices here. Also, this move order might suit a Tango player looking for an alternative to a Zurich Nimzo-Indian after 3 Nf3.

Urusov quotes Richard Palliser as recommending 4 d5 Ne5 5 Ne5 de 6 g3 as conferring a small edge. I notice, however, that the young Ukrainian GM Miroshnichenko hasnt been afraid to try this for Black, and has done OK after 6 ...e6 7 Bg2 ed (7 ...Bb4!?) 8 cd Bd6 9 0-0 0-0 10 Nc3 h6 or 10 ...a6. The other non-main line Richard mentions is 4 Nc3 e5 (the point) 5 g3. Here Urusov seems to recommend 5 ...Bf5!?. I notice also that another Panther devotee, Slapikas, has played 5 ...Bg4!?, and that Larsen has played 5 ...ed 6 Nd4 Bd7, which might reach A15, A25 or E60 positions!

The main line though must be 4 Nc3 e5 5 d5 Ne7 6 e4 Ng6 (on 6 ...g6, aiming for a KID, White can try 7 c5!? which Urusov thinks is unclear after 7 ...Bg7 8 Bb5 Bd7) 7 g3 Be7. Here White has two lines:

(1)  8 Bg2 0-0 (Urusov also mentions 8 ...c5!? though Black has done very poorly with this) 9 0-0, and now praxis has seen (a) 9 ...c6 playing on the Queenside, (b) 9 ...Ne8 intending a quick ...f5 and (c) the newer 9 ...h6!?, intending ...Nh7 and ...Bg5 (and/or ...f5).

(2)  8 h4!? h6 (8 ...Nf8!?) and now 9 Bh3, 9 Qc2, and 9 h5!? Nf8 10 Nh4 N6h7 have all been played or suggested.

As a Tango player, I’ve been aware of the traditional wisdom that ...Ng6 plans aren’t so good if White can play g2--g3, but the Panther aims to prove this wrong. Does it succeed? Anyone got any thoughts on the variations above, or others?
« Last Edit: 04/11/08 at 13:56:36 by Michael Ayton »  
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Dink Heckler
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #20 - 04/11/08 at 12:42:51
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Thanks, Stigma. looks too inflexible for my tastes. Black is painting with a very limited palette indeed in those lines. And I say this as a Czech Benoni-phile.
  

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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #19 - 04/11/08 at 12:09:22
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I spent some time looking at this unpleasant line too, after reading linkspringer's post. Will probably post some lines I've looked at later, but right now it doesn't look rosy for Black.

Re: The Panther. Probably this has been mentioned before, but Michael Goeller published an excellent series on it:

http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/articles/panther/

Unfotunately, a plan with g3 and h4 looks nice fo White against the Panther. Though of course it's not a risk-free plan, and at club level most Whites will be surprised and try something "safer" and more classical, typically with Be2 and 0-0.
  

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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #18 - 04/11/08 at 11:47:46
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Michael, I'm curious about this panther thingie. Unfortunaltely, your link doesn't work, and searching only brings up your last post.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #17 - 04/11/08 at 11:42:26
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A further look has provided me with no solace either. (I confess I haven't looked at 6 ...e4 in depth, but I imagine it comes up short.)

What is a Tango player to do? Give up the opening? Nah! I guess that if 5 Nf3, for now at least 5 …d6 is the way to go, and after 6 e4 (not forced of course, but presumably the most critical?) choose between a KID with 6 ...g6 and an Old Indian "Panther" with 6 ...Ng6 according to mood. In the KID line 7 c5!? is a challenge, and in the Panther line 7 g3, but Black has (sufficient?) resources. This old thread might be of some use:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.plnum=1147779796/4#4

Obviously, a "Panther" player could answer 3 Nf3 in the Tango with 3 ...d6, thus economising on preparation. I wouldn't necessarily want to do this myself, but it's a useful option to know about.


  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #16 - 04/10/08 at 23:05:51
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Oh dear! As a Tango player I feel somewhat guilty that I've not looked carefully at this particular position before, and yes, this does look somewhat serious! I wondered briefly about 9 ...d6 10 Qc2 c6, but 11 dc bc 12 0-0-0 looks nasty.

Rescue attempts, anyone? The end of my favourite opening would be just too tragic!  Cry
« Last Edit: 04/11/08 at 00:23:26 by Michael Ayton »  
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Tango in trouble?!
Reply #15 - 04/09/08 at 12:54:59
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Hi all, I wonder what you think about the following line:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.d5 Ne7 5.Nf3 Ng6 6.h4 h5 7.e3 Bb4 8.Bd2 O-O 9.Bd3 Bxc3 10.Bxc3 e4 11.Bxf6 Qxf6 12.Bxe4 Qxb2
(pg. 47 in Tango!)
and instead of 13.Bxg6 Qc3+! as given as example, why not simply 13.0-0 with the threat of Ng5 ?
13...Ne5 14.Rb1!? or 13...d6 14.Ng5 or 13...Qf6 14.Ng5 Nxh4 15.Qxh5 Qh6 16.Qxh6 gxh6 17.Nh7 all look unattractive. And I don't see earlier improvements for black.
  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #14 - 02/20/08 at 19:00:30
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naughtyknight wrote on 02/17/08 at 09:59:26:
Well, that's typical, the week after I buy the book.... the Everyman chess web site is offering 'Tango' in electronic form.

Much more useful, and cheaper too..... Grrrrrr.

Good book, though.


I agree that this is pretty annoying. I love the e-books and I much prefer them to the paper and ink version. I have decided to hold off on buying any new Eveyman books for a few months after release to see if they will come out in E-book format. The problem is that Everyman does not seem to have any set policy regarding which books will be released in e-book format or the timing of such a release.
  

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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #13 - 02/17/08 at 09:59:26
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Well, that's typical, the week after I buy the book.... the Everyman chess web site is offering 'Tango' in electronic form.

Much more useful, and cheaper too..... Grrrrrr.

Good book, though.
  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #12 - 02/09/08 at 21:56:41
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Thanks, I think it will be good to have the Nimzo to hand as well. The quest for the 'perfect' Black repertoire goes on.

Might as well be looking for the Holy Grail, eh!
  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #11 - 02/07/08 at 22:20:44
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naughtyknight wrote on 02/07/08 at 20:47:57:
Oh well, I've ordered 'Tango!'... wish me well!  Smiley



It's a good book, even covers the pesky lines you will have to face.  Well organized, so studying the various lines is made easier with the book than just trying to database everything across a gauntlet of ECO references.

I often use it (aka: The Mexican Defense) when white tries (!?) avoiding the Nimzo on move 3 because all too regularly we end up right back in a Nimzo anyway!  Grin (with many of white's sharper options quite limited.)


  

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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #10 - 02/07/08 at 20:47:57
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Oh well, I've ordered 'Tango!'... wish me well!  Smiley
  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #9 - 02/05/08 at 19:32:40
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Thanks for the advice, Richard... your books are always worth a look!
  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #8 - 02/03/08 at 14:30:41
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I've always gone 2 Nf3 e6 - don't trust 2 c4 Nc6 3 Nf3 d6 I'm afraid.
Alburt et al do have some coverage of the Colle, London, et al, but probably the best guide for Black is John Cox's 'Dealing with d4 Deviations'.
  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #7 - 02/02/08 at 23:19:35
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naughtyknight wrote on 02/02/08 at 19:01:48:
I don't play this line, I'm just thinking about it. However, the Pallister book claims to be a 'complete answer to 1.d4'... is it?


Sure. 
So long as Black enjoys playing a lot of Bogos, Open Catalans and funky King Indians such as: 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. c4 Nc6 4. a3 d6 5. e4 g6

It has lots of room for some original and creative play but I think stronger players can really keep Black constipated if they don't try refuting it in the opening and just aim for blunting Blacks main idea of swapping off the dark square bishop and then locking down a dark square pawn structure.





  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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