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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice. (Read 27985 times)
chandrashekharkoravi
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #36 - 08/14/13 at 15:56:05
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How to play Tango against catalan if white is playing c4 after castling ???
  
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saubhikr
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #35 - 12/16/08 at 01:29:59
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I play Tango based on Pallisar book and have great success. Almost perfect score. But one needs to be ready to play Bogo Indian.
  
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urusov
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #34 - 10/31/08 at 16:18:27
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The Orlov book on the Tango has some coverage of d6 against Nf3, which can often transpose to KID positions (which Orlov encourages).  I have also offered analysis of the alternative 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 d6!? 4.Nc3 e5, which some have called "The Panther":
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/articles/panther/
If you are looking most to control the course of play, The Panther lines are definitely an interesting alternative.  But, honestly, I think transposing to the KID or KID-like lines (see Bologan's games) is generally best.
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #33 - 10/14/08 at 08:21:51
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Oh, I have not read that before because I tought the post was about something else than this line. Ok it's the proof that the line is or was annoying!
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #32 - 10/14/08 at 07:35:29
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Have a look at all the earlier posts in the thread!  Smiley
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: a problem in the Tango :(
Reply #31 - 10/14/08 at 06:20:29
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I have bought Palliser's book on the Tango, a great book where I feel confident much of the time with Black, but there is a real difficult line, even the results have been bad in this line: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 Nc6 3. Nc3 e5 4. d5 Ne7 5. Nf3 Ng6 6. h4 h5 where I followed Palliser's recommandation 7. e3 Bb4 8. Bd2 O-O 9. Bd3 Bxc3 10. Bxc3 e4 11. Bxf6 Qxf6 12. Bxe4 Qxb2 where he says that Black is ok after 13.Bxg6 Qc3+ 14.Nd2 fxg6 and it's probably true but a simple move like 13.0-0 or 13.Rb1 and White may use the weakness of the h5 pawn and is already better Sad So it seems to me that the whole line beginning with 9..Bxc3 is bad, so it's important for the Tango player to believe into equal chances after 5.Nf3 and 6.h4. Maybe 9..d6 or 9..Ng4 are improvment? It would be great to know if someone else faced that problem, and it would be nice to know what Palliser think about it.
  
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IMRichardPalliser
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #30 - 05/25/08 at 10:45:52
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Must echo Michael's words myself! It does look like the Tango lives! As we've long known these h4-lines are pretty critical and B must accept the occassional uncomfortable structure, but after checking all this excellent analysis and transpositional ideas, I'm happy. Smiley
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #29 - 05/13/08 at 22:58:23
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Sorry to be so long absent from this thread, even though it features my favourite opening!! Just shows I'm not completely obsessed with chess!  Grin

Great to see the rescue! Sure, 10 Qc2 (after 9 ...d6) isn't forced but my feeling is the Tango is surviving. After 10 Ng5 c6, has White anything better than to transpose back into Richard Palliser's line with 11 Qc2 Ne7? I see what you mean, Stigma, about Black's shaky structure after 10 Bg6 fg 11 Ng5 obliging Black to act, but isn't the structure really only shaky if White can get at it? So maybe just the direct 11 ...Bf5 (12 Qb3 a5), or 11 ...Qe7 (which is what my Rybka plays), awaiting developments? The Tango lives! (Or dances!)

  
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Re: Tango rescued?!
Reply #28 - 05/07/08 at 13:57:05
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linksspringer wrote on 05/02/08 at 12:41:55:
I should have noticed this sooner:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.d5 Ne7 5.Nf3 Ng6 6.h4 h5 7.e3 Bb4 8.Bd2 O-O 9.Bd3
and now 9...d6 10.Qc2 Ne7! transposes to note b2 on pg 47 of "Tango!", continuing 11.Ng5 c6 destroying white's centre or 11...Bxc3!? 12.Bxc3 b5. Black looks OK enough.


Good catch there! Although White gets the bishop pair in many lines after 9...d6 10.Qc2 Ne7! , this is just the kind of unclear, positonal fight Tango players love.

I wonder though if White has a more useful move than 10.Qc2, seeing that Black is now ready to retreat the g6-knight anyway.
After 10.Ng5 instead, White is flexible with his queen and keeps Black's Nf6 tied to defence of h5 for the time being.

There is also 10.Bxg6!? fxg6 11.Ng5 and Black needs a concrete idea to avoid being slightly worse with his shaky pawn structure, but I don't see anything happening on the f-file. After 11...Bxc3 12.Bxc3 Nh7?! 13.Nxh7 Kxh7 is certainly too passive; White should go 0-0-0 and have the better attacking chances with a g4-break. But I'm not sure what else to suggest for Black, maybe some action in the centre with ...c6 is worth trying.

I must also mention an attempt I made to save Black. Palliser's Tango book spends some time on the corr.-game Rooms-Simmelink:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.d5 Ne7 5.Nf3 Ng6 6.h4 h5 7.e3 Bb4 8.Bd2 Bxc3 9.Bxc3 Qe7 10.Ng5! "Black [...] gave up his dark-squared bishop too easily. White's knight has just leapt into the tempting g5-square after which Black struggles to gain any conterplay [...]" (Palliser)

So I thought, why exchange on c3 so early? After 8...Qe7!? we can hope for 9.a3?! Bxc3 10.Bxc3 Ne4 11.Bb4 d6 12.Bd3 Nxf2! 13.Kxf2 e4 which is at least murky. But White should of course play more forcefully with 9.Ng5! and now my attempts to delay ...Bxc3: (note of course that a quick ...d6?? loses to Qa4+):

9...Ng4 10.g3 (10.f3 also looks promising) 10...f6 (10...Bxc3 11.Bxc3 f6 12.d6! with a clear advantage for White) 11.Bd3 and Black's position is very clumsy.

9...c6 may be the best chance, though I don't think Black is fully equal. After 10.Bd3 Black can choose between 10...Nf8 followed by ...d6 and ...Nfd7, as in Rooms-Simmelink, hoping that the delayed ...Bxc3 gives Black more extra options that White, or 10...0-0 allowing 11.Bxg6, but at least Black has already started play in the centre.

Finally, the pawn-sacrifice 8...Bxc3 9.Bxc3 Ne4? is punished by 10.Nxe5! Nxc3 11.Qd4! with a clear advantage.
  

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linksspringer
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Tango rescued?!
Reply #27 - 05/02/08 at 12:41:55
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Michael Ayton wrote on 04/10/08 at 23:05:51:
Oh dear! As a Tango player I feel somewhat guilty that I've not looked carefully at this particular position before, and yes, this does look somewhat serious! I wondered briefly about 9 ...d6 10 Qc2 c6, but 11 dc bc 12 0-0-0 looks nasty.

Rescue attempts, anyone? The end of my favourite opening would be just too tragic!  Cry


I should have noticed this sooner:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.d5 Ne7 5.Nf3 Ng6 6.h4 h5 7.e3 Bb4 8.Bd2 O-O 9.Bd3
and now 9...d6 10.Qc2 Ne7! transposes to note b2 on pg 47 of "Tango!", continuing 11.Ng5 c6 destroying white's centre or 11...Bxc3!? 12.Bxc3 b5. Black looks OK enough.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #26 - 04/13/08 at 19:56:25
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This is intriguingly categorical, drkodos. (I got you and Dink Heckler mixed up earlier -- apologies to both.) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought 5 ...d6 6 e4 g6 [i]was[/i] the KID unless White plays 7 c5(!), when personally I don't like the look of Black's position assuming the light-square Bishops leave the board. But tell me, why is the "Panther" worse for Black than this? -- why doesn't Black "stay on the board" in the line I gave?
  
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drkodos
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #25 - 04/13/08 at 18:03:39
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The only line that allows Black to stay on the board after 5.Nf3 is to immediately play 5. ...d6, and then put the dark square bishop on g7 to create a mostly benign and bastardized version of a KID.  It is stultifyingly passive, but playable.

Fortunately, most players under 2200 are still mostly bewildered by the Tango! opening, so like other lessor opening systems, it still has some practical playability for duffers like myself.

Still very good in blitz, which is all that matters.  Wink
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: Tango in trouble?!
Reply #24 - 04/13/08 at 17:48:57
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linksspringer wrote on 04/09/08 at 12:54:59:
Hi all, I wonder what you think about the following line:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.d5 Ne7 5.Nf3 Ng6 6.h4 h5 7.e3 Bb4 8.Bd2 O-O 9.Bd3 Bxc3 10.Bxc3 e4 11.Bxf6 Qxf6 12.Bxe4 Qxb2
(pg. 47 in Tango!)
and instead of 13.Bxg6 Qc3+! as given as example, why not simply 13.0-0 with the threat of Ng5 ?
13...Ne5 14.Rb1!? or 13...d6 14.Ng5 or 13...Qf6 14.Ng5 Nxh4 15.Qxh5 Qh6 16.Qxh6 gxh6 17.Nh7 all look unattractive. And I don't see earlier improvements for black.


Thanks for this idea. 13...d6 14.Ng5 Bg4 14.f3 Bd7 15.Bxg6 fxg6 16.Qb3, when White looks much better, what with his immortal knight on g5.

Besides the line you give 13...Qf6 (on move 17 I would probably play 17.Nh3 += with simple chess, instead of 17.Nh7), White also has 14.d6, which looks promising to me.
  

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linksspringer
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #23 - 04/13/08 at 12:29:10
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Thanks guys for having a look Sad to see my Tango worries seem to be valid  Cry
When I have time I'll have a look at the alternatives proposed by Michael, and I'm also curious if in the move order 1.d4 Nc6 2.c4 e5 3.d5 Ne7 4.Nc3 Ng6 5. Nf3 black can go for Bb4 and Nge7 (instead of Nf6 transposing).
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #22 - 04/12/08 at 14:15:05
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I've taken another look at this, or at least at 8 h4 in the Panther. I've been tempted to agree with Dink Heckler, but then my own Panther involvement would be restricted to the transposition after 5 Nf3 in the Tango, so I'm less concerned with richness of palette as with soundness. Having looked at 8 ...Bg4 and 8 ...0-0!? I'm not quite yet convinced. But what, I'd like to ask, is wrong with 8 ...Nf8!?, intending ...c6, ...Bg4 and ...N8d7 in some order, with ...0-0 to follow at some point and ...h6 as optional? (My Rybka gives as roughly equal 9 Qe2 h6 10 Bd2 a5 11 Bg2 Bg4 12 0-0 N8d7 13 Na4 0-0, but obviously there are lots of possibilities.) Isn't White's extra space sufficiently offset by the (very real) weakness of g4?

Black's other option of course is to seek transposition to a KID with [5 Nf3] d6 6 e4 g6. Michael Goeller thought 7 c5!? Bg7 8 Bb5 Bd7 is OK for Black, but to me it looks highly iffy. What do people think? Obviously I could be persuaded otherwise, but for now, so far as the Tango's concerned I reckon it could be time for the big cat to come to the aid of the party.



« Last Edit: 04/12/08 at 22:07:57 by Michael Ayton »  
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