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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice. (Read 27721 times)
chandrashekharkoravi
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #36 - 08/14/13 at 15:56:05
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How to play Tango against catalan if white is playing c4 after castling ???
  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #35 - 12/16/08 at 01:29:59
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I play Tango based on Pallisar book and have great success. Almost perfect score. But one needs to be ready to play Bogo Indian.
  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #34 - 10/31/08 at 16:18:27
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The Orlov book on the Tango has some coverage of d6 against Nf3, which can often transpose to KID positions (which Orlov encourages).  I have also offered analysis of the alternative 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 d6!? 4.Nc3 e5, which some have called "The Panther":
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/articles/panther/
If you are looking most to control the course of play, The Panther lines are definitely an interesting alternative.  But, honestly, I think transposing to the KID or KID-like lines (see Bologan's games) is generally best.
  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #33 - 10/14/08 at 08:21:51
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Oh, I have not read that before because I tought the post was about something else than this line. Ok it's the proof that the line is or was annoying!
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #32 - 10/14/08 at 07:35:29
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Have a look at all the earlier posts in the thread!  Smiley
  
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Re: a problem in the Tango :(
Reply #31 - 10/14/08 at 06:20:29
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I have bought Palliser's book on the Tango, a great book where I feel confident much of the time with Black, but there is a real difficult line, even the results have been bad in this line: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 Nc6 3. Nc3 e5 4. d5 Ne7 5. Nf3 Ng6 6. h4 h5 where I followed Palliser's recommandation 7. e3 Bb4 8. Bd2 O-O 9. Bd3 Bxc3 10. Bxc3 e4 11. Bxf6 Qxf6 12. Bxe4 Qxb2 where he says that Black is ok after 13.Bxg6 Qc3+ 14.Nd2 fxg6 and it's probably true but a simple move like 13.0-0 or 13.Rb1 and White may use the weakness of the h5 pawn and is already better Sad So it seems to me that the whole line beginning with 9..Bxc3 is bad, so it's important for the Tango player to believe into equal chances after 5.Nf3 and 6.h4. Maybe 9..d6 or 9..Ng4 are improvment? It would be great to know if someone else faced that problem, and it would be nice to know what Palliser think about it.
  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #30 - 05/25/08 at 10:45:52
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Must echo Michael's words myself! It does look like the Tango lives! As we've long known these h4-lines are pretty critical and B must accept the occassional uncomfortable structure, but after checking all this excellent analysis and transpositional ideas, I'm happy. Smiley
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #29 - 05/13/08 at 22:58:23
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Sorry to be so long absent from this thread, even though it features my favourite opening!! Just shows I'm not completely obsessed with chess!  Grin

Great to see the rescue! Sure, 10 Qc2 (after 9 ...d6) isn't forced but my feeling is the Tango is surviving. After 10 Ng5 c6, has White anything better than to transpose back into Richard Palliser's line with 11 Qc2 Ne7? I see what you mean, Stigma, about Black's shaky structure after 10 Bg6 fg 11 Ng5 obliging Black to act, but isn't the structure really only shaky if White can get at it? So maybe just the direct 11 ...Bf5 (12 Qb3 a5), or 11 ...Qe7 (which is what my Rybka plays), awaiting developments? The Tango lives! (Or dances!)

  
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Re: Tango rescued?!
Reply #28 - 05/07/08 at 13:57:05
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linksspringer wrote on 05/02/08 at 12:41:55:
I should have noticed this sooner:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.d5 Ne7 5.Nf3 Ng6 6.h4 h5 7.e3 Bb4 8.Bd2 O-O 9.Bd3
and now 9...d6 10.Qc2 Ne7! transposes to note b2 on pg 47 of "Tango!", continuing 11.Ng5 c6 destroying white's centre or 11...Bxc3!? 12.Bxc3 b5. Black looks OK enough.


Good catch there! Although White gets the bishop pair in many lines after 9...d6 10.Qc2 Ne7! , this is just the kind of unclear, positonal fight Tango players love.

I wonder though if White has a more useful move than 10.Qc2, seeing that Black is now ready to retreat the g6-knight anyway.
After 10.Ng5 instead, White is flexible with his queen and keeps Black's Nf6 tied to defence of h5 for the time being.

There is also 10.Bxg6!? fxg6 11.Ng5 and Black needs a concrete idea to avoid being slightly worse with his shaky pawn structure, but I don't see anything happening on the f-file. After 11...Bxc3 12.Bxc3 Nh7?! 13.Nxh7 Kxh7 is certainly too passive; White should go 0-0-0 and have the better attacking chances with a g4-break. But I'm not sure what else to suggest for Black, maybe some action in the centre with ...c6 is worth trying.

I must also mention an attempt I made to save Black. Palliser's Tango book spends some time on the corr.-game Rooms-Simmelink:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.d5 Ne7 5.Nf3 Ng6 6.h4 h5 7.e3 Bb4 8.Bd2 Bxc3 9.Bxc3 Qe7 10.Ng5! "Black [...] gave up his dark-squared bishop too easily. White's knight has just leapt into the tempting g5-square after which Black struggles to gain any conterplay [...]" (Palliser)

So I thought, why exchange on c3 so early? After 8...Qe7!? we can hope for 9.a3?! Bxc3 10.Bxc3 Ne4 11.Bb4 d6 12.Bd3 Nxf2! 13.Kxf2 e4 which is at least murky. But White should of course play more forcefully with 9.Ng5! and now my attempts to delay ...Bxc3: (note of course that a quick ...d6?? loses to Qa4+):

9...Ng4 10.g3 (10.f3 also looks promising) 10...f6 (10...Bxc3 11.Bxc3 f6 12.d6! with a clear advantage for White) 11.Bd3 and Black's position is very clumsy.

9...c6 may be the best chance, though I don't think Black is fully equal. After 10.Bd3 Black can choose between 10...Nf8 followed by ...d6 and ...Nfd7, as in Rooms-Simmelink, hoping that the delayed ...Bxc3 gives Black more extra options that White, or 10...0-0 allowing 11.Bxg6, but at least Black has already started play in the centre.

Finally, the pawn-sacrifice 8...Bxc3 9.Bxc3 Ne4? is punished by 10.Nxe5! Nxc3 11.Qd4! with a clear advantage.
  

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linksspringer
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Tango rescued?!
Reply #27 - 05/02/08 at 12:41:55
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Michael Ayton wrote on 04/10/08 at 23:05:51:
Oh dear! As a Tango player I feel somewhat guilty that I've not looked carefully at this particular position before, and yes, this does look somewhat serious! I wondered briefly about 9 ...d6 10 Qc2 c6, but 11 dc bc 12 0-0-0 looks nasty.

Rescue attempts, anyone? The end of my favourite opening would be just too tragic!  Cry


I should have noticed this sooner:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.d5 Ne7 5.Nf3 Ng6 6.h4 h5 7.e3 Bb4 8.Bd2 O-O 9.Bd3
and now 9...d6 10.Qc2 Ne7! transposes to note b2 on pg 47 of "Tango!", continuing 11.Ng5 c6 destroying white's centre or 11...Bxc3!? 12.Bxc3 b5. Black looks OK enough.
  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #26 - 04/13/08 at 19:56:25
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This is intriguingly categorical, drkodos. (I got you and Dink Heckler mixed up earlier -- apologies to both.) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought 5 ...d6 6 e4 g6 [i]was[/i] the KID unless White plays 7 c5(!), when personally I don't like the look of Black's position assuming the light-square Bishops leave the board. But tell me, why is the "Panther" worse for Black than this? -- why doesn't Black "stay on the board" in the line I gave?
  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #25 - 04/13/08 at 18:03:39
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The only line that allows Black to stay on the board after 5.Nf3 is to immediately play 5. ...d6, and then put the dark square bishop on g7 to create a mostly benign and bastardized version of a KID.  It is stultifyingly passive, but playable.

Fortunately, most players under 2200 are still mostly bewildered by the Tango! opening, so like other lessor opening systems, it still has some practical playability for duffers like myself.

Still very good in blitz, which is all that matters.  Wink
  

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Re: Tango in trouble?!
Reply #24 - 04/13/08 at 17:48:57
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linksspringer wrote on 04/09/08 at 12:54:59:
Hi all, I wonder what you think about the following line:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.d5 Ne7 5.Nf3 Ng6 6.h4 h5 7.e3 Bb4 8.Bd2 O-O 9.Bd3 Bxc3 10.Bxc3 e4 11.Bxf6 Qxf6 12.Bxe4 Qxb2
(pg. 47 in Tango!)
and instead of 13.Bxg6 Qc3+! as given as example, why not simply 13.0-0 with the threat of Ng5 ?
13...Ne5 14.Rb1!? or 13...d6 14.Ng5 or 13...Qf6 14.Ng5 Nxh4 15.Qxh5 Qh6 16.Qxh6 gxh6 17.Nh7 all look unattractive. And I don't see earlier improvements for black.


Thanks for this idea. 13...d6 14.Ng5 Bg4 14.f3 Bd7 15.Bxg6 fxg6 16.Qb3, when White looks much better, what with his immortal knight on g5.

Besides the line you give 13...Qf6 (on move 17 I would probably play 17.Nh3 += with simple chess, instead of 17.Nh7), White also has 14.d6, which looks promising to me.
  

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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #23 - 04/13/08 at 12:29:10
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Thanks guys for having a look Sad to see my Tango worries seem to be valid  Cry
When I have time I'll have a look at the alternatives proposed by Michael, and I'm also curious if in the move order 1.d4 Nc6 2.c4 e5 3.d5 Ne7 4.Nc3 Ng6 5. Nf3 black can go for Bb4 and Nge7 (instead of Nf6 transposing).
  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #22 - 04/12/08 at 14:15:05
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I've taken another look at this, or at least at 8 h4 in the Panther. I've been tempted to agree with Dink Heckler, but then my own Panther involvement would be restricted to the transposition after 5 Nf3 in the Tango, so I'm less concerned with richness of palette as with soundness. Having looked at 8 ...Bg4 and 8 ...0-0!? I'm not quite yet convinced. But what, I'd like to ask, is wrong with 8 ...Nf8!?, intending ...c6, ...Bg4 and ...N8d7 in some order, with ...0-0 to follow at some point and ...h6 as optional? (My Rybka gives as roughly equal 9 Qe2 h6 10 Bd2 a5 11 Bg2 Bg4 12 0-0 N8d7 13 Na4 0-0, but obviously there are lots of possibilities.) Isn't White's extra space sufficiently offset by the (very real) weakness of g4?

Black's other option of course is to seek transposition to a KID with [5 Nf3] d6 6 e4 g6. Michael Goeller thought 7 c5!? Bg7 8 Bb5 Bd7 is OK for Black, but to me it looks highly iffy. What do people think? Obviously I could be persuaded otherwise, but for now, so far as the Tango's concerned I reckon it could be time for the big cat to come to the aid of the party.



« Last Edit: 04/12/08 at 22:07:57 by Michael Ayton »  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #21 - 04/11/08 at 12:46:05
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Below is what I wrote in my original "Panther" post. I guess Stigma is referring to the line I call "(2)" below, and yes, I'm sure this is one of the stiffest challenges. (NB: here, I think 8 ...Bg4!? needs looking at as well.) Should it put Black off or not? -- it would be good to get a debate going about this ...

******

The Panther: 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 Nc6 3 Nf3 d6!?

I couldnt resist! Having had a look at urusovs sites on this (see http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/kenilworthian/2006/02/panther-part-one.html) I thought Id start a separate thread on this interesting system.

As Uberdeker pointed out in another thread, it’s essentially an Old Indian with ...Nc6. It can be reached via a number of move orders, however (for which see Urusov’s site). I chose the order above just for ease of setting out the main variations, since White has a number of fourth-move choices here. Also, this move order might suit a Tango player looking for an alternative to a Zurich Nimzo-Indian after 3 Nf3.

Urusov quotes Richard Palliser as recommending 4 d5 Ne5 5 Ne5 de 6 g3 as conferring a small edge. I notice, however, that the young Ukrainian GM Miroshnichenko hasnt been afraid to try this for Black, and has done OK after 6 ...e6 7 Bg2 ed (7 ...Bb4!?) 8 cd Bd6 9 0-0 0-0 10 Nc3 h6 or 10 ...a6. The other non-main line Richard mentions is 4 Nc3 e5 (the point) 5 g3. Here Urusov seems to recommend 5 ...Bf5!?. I notice also that another Panther devotee, Slapikas, has played 5 ...Bg4!?, and that Larsen has played 5 ...ed 6 Nd4 Bd7, which might reach A15, A25 or E60 positions!

The main line though must be 4 Nc3 e5 5 d5 Ne7 6 e4 Ng6 (on 6 ...g6, aiming for a KID, White can try 7 c5!? which Urusov thinks is unclear after 7 ...Bg7 8 Bb5 Bd7) 7 g3 Be7. Here White has two lines:

(1)  8 Bg2 0-0 (Urusov also mentions 8 ...c5!? though Black has done very poorly with this) 9 0-0, and now praxis has seen (a) 9 ...c6 playing on the Queenside, (b) 9 ...Ne8 intending a quick ...f5 and (c) the newer 9 ...h6!?, intending ...Nh7 and ...Bg5 (and/or ...f5).

(2)  8 h4!? h6 (8 ...Nf8!?) and now 9 Bh3, 9 Qc2, and 9 h5!? Nf8 10 Nh4 N6h7 have all been played or suggested.

As a Tango player, I’ve been aware of the traditional wisdom that ...Ng6 plans aren’t so good if White can play g2--g3, but the Panther aims to prove this wrong. Does it succeed? Anyone got any thoughts on the variations above, or others?
« Last Edit: 04/11/08 at 13:56:36 by Michael Ayton »  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #20 - 04/11/08 at 12:42:51
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Thanks, Stigma. looks too inflexible for my tastes. Black is painting with a very limited palette indeed in those lines. And I say this as a Czech Benoni-phile.
  

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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #19 - 04/11/08 at 12:09:22
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I spent some time looking at this unpleasant line too, after reading linkspringer's post. Will probably post some lines I've looked at later, but right now it doesn't look rosy for Black.

Re: The Panther. Probably this has been mentioned before, but Michael Goeller published an excellent series on it:

http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/articles/panther/

Unfotunately, a plan with g3 and h4 looks nice fo White against the Panther. Though of course it's not a risk-free plan, and at club level most Whites will be surprised and try something "safer" and more classical, typically with Be2 and 0-0.
  

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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #18 - 04/11/08 at 11:47:46
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Michael, I'm curious about this panther thingie. Unfortunaltely, your link doesn't work, and searching only brings up your last post.
  

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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #17 - 04/11/08 at 11:42:26
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A further look has provided me with no solace either. (I confess I haven't looked at 6 ...e4 in depth, but I imagine it comes up short.)

What is a Tango player to do? Give up the opening? Nah! I guess that if 5 Nf3, for now at least 5 …d6 is the way to go, and after 6 e4 (not forced of course, but presumably the most critical?) choose between a KID with 6 ...g6 and an Old Indian "Panther" with 6 ...Ng6 according to mood. In the KID line 7 c5!? is a challenge, and in the Panther line 7 g3, but Black has (sufficient?) resources. This old thread might be of some use:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.plnum=1147779796/4#4

Obviously, a "Panther" player could answer 3 Nf3 in the Tango with 3 ...d6, thus economising on preparation. I wouldn't necessarily want to do this myself, but it's a useful option to know about.


  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #16 - 04/10/08 at 23:05:51
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Oh dear! As a Tango player I feel somewhat guilty that I've not looked carefully at this particular position before, and yes, this does look somewhat serious! I wondered briefly about 9 ...d6 10 Qc2 c6, but 11 dc bc 12 0-0-0 looks nasty.

Rescue attempts, anyone? The end of my favourite opening would be just too tragic!  Cry
« Last Edit: 04/11/08 at 00:23:26 by Michael Ayton »  
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Tango in trouble?!
Reply #15 - 04/09/08 at 12:54:59
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Hi all, I wonder what you think about the following line:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.d5 Ne7 5.Nf3 Ng6 6.h4 h5 7.e3 Bb4 8.Bd2 O-O 9.Bd3 Bxc3 10.Bxc3 e4 11.Bxf6 Qxf6 12.Bxe4 Qxb2
(pg. 47 in Tango!)
and instead of 13.Bxg6 Qc3+! as given as example, why not simply 13.0-0 with the threat of Ng5 ?
13...Ne5 14.Rb1!? or 13...d6 14.Ng5 or 13...Qf6 14.Ng5 Nxh4 15.Qxh5 Qh6 16.Qxh6 gxh6 17.Nh7 all look unattractive. And I don't see earlier improvements for black.
  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #14 - 02/20/08 at 19:00:30
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naughtyknight wrote on 02/17/08 at 09:59:26:
Well, that's typical, the week after I buy the book.... the Everyman chess web site is offering 'Tango' in electronic form.

Much more useful, and cheaper too..... Grrrrrr.

Good book, though.


I agree that this is pretty annoying. I love the e-books and I much prefer them to the paper and ink version. I have decided to hold off on buying any new Eveyman books for a few months after release to see if they will come out in E-book format. The problem is that Everyman does not seem to have any set policy regarding which books will be released in e-book format or the timing of such a release.
  

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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #13 - 02/17/08 at 09:59:26
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Well, that's typical, the week after I buy the book.... the Everyman chess web site is offering 'Tango' in electronic form.

Much more useful, and cheaper too..... Grrrrrr.

Good book, though.
  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #12 - 02/09/08 at 21:56:41
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Thanks, I think it will be good to have the Nimzo to hand as well. The quest for the 'perfect' Black repertoire goes on.

Might as well be looking for the Holy Grail, eh!
  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #11 - 02/07/08 at 22:20:44
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naughtyknight wrote on 02/07/08 at 20:47:57:
Oh well, I've ordered 'Tango!'... wish me well!  Smiley



It's a good book, even covers the pesky lines you will have to face.  Well organized, so studying the various lines is made easier with the book than just trying to database everything across a gauntlet of ECO references.

I often use it (aka: The Mexican Defense) when white tries (!?) avoiding the Nimzo on move 3 because all too regularly we end up right back in a Nimzo anyway!  Grin (with many of white's sharper options quite limited.)


  

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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #10 - 02/07/08 at 20:47:57
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Oh well, I've ordered 'Tango!'... wish me well!  Smiley
  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #9 - 02/05/08 at 19:32:40
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Thanks for the advice, Richard... your books are always worth a look!
  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #8 - 02/03/08 at 14:30:41
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I've always gone 2 Nf3 e6 - don't trust 2 c4 Nc6 3 Nf3 d6 I'm afraid.
Alburt et al do have some coverage of the Colle, London, et al, but probably the best guide for Black is John Cox's 'Dealing with d4 Deviations'.
  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #7 - 02/02/08 at 23:19:35
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naughtyknight wrote on 02/02/08 at 19:01:48:
I don't play this line, I'm just thinking about it. However, the Pallister book claims to be a 'complete answer to 1.d4'... is it?


Sure. 
So long as Black enjoys playing a lot of Bogos, Open Catalans and funky King Indians such as: 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. c4 Nc6 4. a3 d6 5. e4 g6

It has lots of room for some original and creative play but I think stronger players can really keep Black constipated if they don't try refuting it in the opening and just aim for blunting Blacks main idea of swapping off the dark square bishop and then locking down a dark square pawn structure.





  

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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #6 - 02/02/08 at 23:00:51
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Thanks guys, you are both correct, of course. I like the idea of mixing the  Nimzo and the Tango together. Cheers!
  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #5 - 02/02/08 at 22:40:33
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After 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3, the best move for a Tango-player is 2...e6, with the idea of 3.c4 Nc6. For alternatives to 3.c4, I strongly recommend the repertoire book "Chess Openings for Black Explained" by Alburt, Dzindzichashvili and Perelshteyn, which also happens to cover White's other alternatives to 2.c4 and 2.Nf3. If I remember correctly, Glenn Flear gave it an excellent review in a Yearbook a couple of years ago.

I suppose that one major advantage of buying both Palliser's book and A/D/P's book is that you would be able to play 2...e6 as your main defence to 1.d4, and the Tango as a surprise weapon.
  

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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #4 - 02/02/08 at 19:01:48
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Well, after 3.Nf3, 3...e6 is OK, however, after 3.Nc3 then ...e5 seems to be what Orlov (and Pallister, I think) recommend.

I don't play this line, I'm just thinking about it. However, the Pallister book claims to be a 'complete answer to 1.d4'... is it?
  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #3 - 02/02/08 at 18:16:32
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Well, OK then, what's your intention after 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3?  I suppose you could try 3...d6, in which case I guess the way to meet 2.Nf3 is with 2...d6!?
  

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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #2 - 02/02/08 at 17:54:13
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Sound like a fair bit more theory, Alumbrado... however, isn't the point of Nc6 an attempt to play ...e5 in one go, rather than ...e6.
  
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Re: Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
Reply #1 - 02/02/08 at 17:40:13
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After 2...e6, 3.c4 Nc6 transposes to the Tango, surely?  You need to be prepared for other third moves, too, of course: 3.Bg5, 3.Bf4, 3.e3 and 3.g3 are the most obvious.
  

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Tango... or not? 2.Nf3 transposition advice.
02/02/08 at 17:33:22
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Hi all,

A quick 'Tango' question for you all... how does Black cope with 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3. I noticed the Pallister book on the subject doesn't mention this.

What should the Tango player play next? I notice after 2...Nc6, the 3.d5 gives Black a problem.

Any advice? Grin
  
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