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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dutch refuted by Staunton gambit??? (Read 59613 times)
TalJechin
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Re: Dutch refuted by Staunton gambit???
Reply #33 - 10/08/13 at 11:40:10
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brabo wrote on 10/08/13 at 06:57:51:
I touched the line in my latest blogarticle: http://schaken-brabo.blogspot.be/2013/10/iccf.html (Dutch language but maybe still understandable via googletranslate)


Maybe you should write your blog in English instead? For quite a while now many of your posts here are just saying that "I wrote about this in a language you don't understand".
  
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brabo
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Re: Dutch refuted by Staunton gambit???
Reply #32 - 10/08/13 at 06:57:51
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I touched the line in my latest blogarticle: http://schaken-brabo.blogspot.be/2013/10/iccf.html (Dutch language but maybe still understandable via googletranslate)
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Dutch refuted by Staunton gambit???
Reply #31 - 09/20/13 at 09:28:55
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parisestmagique wrote on 09/20/13 at 08:33:23:
Seems very dangerous to me for exemple : 1.d4 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Nc6 5.d5 Ne5 6.Qe2 Nf7 7.Bxf6 exf6 8.Nxe4 and now 8... Be7, ... Bb4+ and ...Qe7 has all drawbacks. The white plan is easy and straightforward play d6! and 000 then Ng3 h4 Bd3 Qc2. Althought the computer likes Black in the beginning because he has an extra pawn, it often change quickly.


I think 6...c6 is the ML nowadays, at least it seems to score better than 6....Nf7 - and why retreat the knight if it's not necessary?

After 6...c6 Black will eventually eliminate White's central pawn and sometimes take back on f6 with the g-pawn with a nice little centre along with the bishop pair.

Anyway, 6.Qe2 is certainly more dangerous than 6.Qd4 as it's less worked out, but Black should be okay.
  
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parisestmagique
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Re: Dutch refuted by Staunton gambit???
Reply #30 - 09/20/13 at 08:33:23
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Seems very dangerous to me for exemple : 1.d4 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Nc6 5.d5 Ne5 6.Qe2 Nf7 7.Bxf6 exf6 8.Nxe4 and now 8... Be7, ... Bb4+ and ...Qe7 has all drawbacks. The white plan is easy and straightforward play d6! and 000 then Ng3 h4 Bd3 Qc2. Althought the computer likes Black in the beginning because he has an extra pawn, it often change quickly.
  
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STEFANOS
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Re: Dutch refuted by Staunton gambit???
Reply #29 - 03/20/11 at 18:11:48
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dragos wrote on 02/27/11 at 17:06:34:
You guys should ask Andrew Martin cause he as made a Chessbase dvd about the anti-dutch(wich I have now) ANd here is is recomendation 1d4 f5 2.e4 fxe 3.Nc3 Nf6 Bg5 AND NOW COMES THE GREAT MOVE ...b6 if you don t trust than why not buy the dvd ok i can tell ya that b6 looks strange when i first saw it but after some explanation i think that if you play b6 against main line stauton gambit black is slightly better but nothing more. B6 WAS FIRST PLAYED BY AARON NIMSOWITCH SO NOT A BAD CHOICE . and finally if you re a tactical player i totally recomend buying the martin anti-dutch dvd B6 is only for TACTICAL PLAYER NOT FOR POSITIONAL PLAYER THANKS BYE Tongue

Martin has excellent works on his credit , but the anti-Dutch DVD is not one of them. It's ok , good but not great . I did not -and I do not- understand phrases I am a positional or a tactical player, the one completes the other , tactics comes out of positional errors - not speaking for errors-, Steinitz formulate all of these around 130 years ago. What I think possibly you wanted to say that the DVD is only of players who wanted immediate imbalances on the board and from these imbalances the better player to win, but Dutch is known for that , so the player who wants to buy that DVD belongs to that category. In the chessboard you may play everything , but you must know what you are doing otherwise you are going to be crassed. And I see you are from Canada, you can understand that very few players can play like Suttles!!!
  
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dragos
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1.e4 is best met by the
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Re: Dutch refuted by Staunton gambit???
Reply #28 - 02/27/11 at 17:09:18
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BECAUSE I MEAN THE THEORY DEVELLOPS VERY FASTLY THOSE DAYS SO IF YOU PLAY Nc6 white will certainely have something against that but if you play b6 you put your oppenent in you re theory Grin

good luck with some b6 avendtures leave me some games cause i decides to take up the leningrad dutch so it would be helpful for me and all the chesspub nation to see your games in the anti-duth
  
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dragos
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Re: Dutch refuted by Staunton gambit???
Reply #27 - 02/27/11 at 17:06:34
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You guys should ask Andrew Martin cause he as made a Chessbase dvd about the anti-dutch(wich I have now) ANd here is is recomendation 1d4 f5 2.e4 fxe 3.Nc3 Nf6 Bg5 AND NOW COMES THE GREAT MOVE ...b6 if you don t trust than why not buy the dvd ok i can tell ya that b6 looks strange when i first saw it but after some explanation i think that if you play b6 against main line stauton gambit black is slightly better but nothing more. B6 WAS FIRST PLAYED BY AARON NIMSOWITCH SO NOT A BAD CHOICE . and finally if you re a tactical player i totally recomend buying the martin anti-dutch dvd B6 is only for TACTICAL PLAYER NOT FOR POSITIONAL PLAYER THANKS BYE Tongue
  
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brabo
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Re: Dutch refuted by Staunton gambit???
Reply #26 - 02/05/11 at 12:17:39
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brabo wrote on 09/16/10 at 21:26:59:
I had a deep look this summer at 1.d4 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Nc6 5.d5 Ne5 6.Qe2 because I got it in one of my games on the board.

A)
6. ...Nf7 looks risky because of 7. Nh3 (An English amateur called Brown, recently tested this with success against his much higher rated opponent) e5! 8.dxe6 (e.p.) dxe6 and now 9.Nxe4 as well as 9.Bd2 lead to very interesting play. Besides the better known 7.Bxf6 exf6 8.Nxe4 Be7! 9.d6 cxd6 10.0-0-0 isn't really enjoyable either for black although I must admit that I couldn't find a clear advantage for white.

B)
6. ... d6 7.Nxe4 (Again a wonderful idea of the English amateur although there are other interesting tries: f4, Bxf6 and 0-0-0) Nxd5 8.Nf3 Nxf3+ 9.Qxf3 Be6! 10.c4 Nb4 11.Qc3 Nc6 12.Be2 and white still has nice compensation for the pawn. The last moves of black were certainly not easy to find so I expect more Nxe4 in the future although I must admit that 6. ... d6 isn't played that often

C)
6. ... c6 (My favorite) 7.0-0-0 (The most natural choice although 7.Bxf6 and 7.f4 aren't without venom either.)
C1)
7. ... cxd5?! (Win with the Stonewall Dutch recommends this move but I don't like it) 8.f4! (Not discussed in the book) Nf7 9.Bxf6 gxf6 10.Nxd5 e6?! (A bit better is 10. ... Nd6 11.Qh5 Nf7 12.Re1 e6 13.Rxe4 +/=) 11.Qxe4 Be7 12.Nxe7N (An easy amelioration on Schleber - Luetke with big advantage for white)
C2)
7. ... Nxd5N (A new move and my favorite. Besides this, I think 7. ... d6 looks also playable although more risky.) 8.Nxd5 (Rybkas favorite but probably Fritz 8.Nxe4 is safer) Nf7! 9.Nf4 Nxg5 10.Qh5+ Nf7 11.Bc4 g6 12.Bxf7+ Kxf7 13.Nxg6 and white wins the exchange but black gets marvelous counterplay for it.

This were just a few critical lines out of my long analysis to explain that the whole variation is still in his childshoes.


I just saw, after receiving my bigbase 2011, that the keynovelty mentioned in C2 has been twice played last year. Once less than 2 months before I submitted this post and once the day after I posted my ideas. Obviously today anybody can come to the same conclusions as most people possess over the same tools.

I think the game Berczes David (Hungarian grandmaster) - Kadziolka Beata (Polish Women Grandmaster) is clearly an advertisement for the novelty as the almost 250 points higher rated white player was heavily beaten.
1.d4 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Nc6 5.d5 Ne5 6.Qe2 c6 7.0-0-0 Nxd5 8.Nxd5 Nf7 9. Bh4 (Diverting from my analysis but not an improvement) cxd5 10.Rxd5 b6 11.Rd1 Bb7 and black has already the better papers.

The second game was a blitzgame played in the women world championschip blitz. Anna Muzychuk improved on the 2 days earlier played game between her sister Maryia and Irina Krush. She got most of the game a winning advantage but in the end still blundered the point away. I also encountered in practice already that in blitz things aren't that easy with the king in the center. Missing a tactic is in blitz much more difficult to avoid.
  
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chk
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Re: Dutch refuted by Staunton gambit???
Reply #25 - 10/14/10 at 15:29:14
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Yes but the trade-off is that you miss the Stonewall.
I think the eternal dilemma of the Dutch-player is whether to avoid certain anti-Dutch lines or keep the flexibility to play either of the 3 main Dutch systems later on in the game depending on White's approach.
  

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Dutch refuted by Staunton gambit???
Reply #24 - 10/14/10 at 10:56:44
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Alias wrote on 10/14/10 at 09:23:54:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/14/10 at 08:03:30:
parisestmagique wrote on 10/14/10 at 07:29:19:
With the move order 1.d4 d6 or 1.d4 g6 the problem is clearly 2.e4! 

I disagree, after 1.d4 d6 2.e4 Black can play 2...f5, the Balogh Defence, which is an excellent weapon.  Wink


Are you suggesting 1.d4 f5 2.e4 d6 then?

The move order 1.d4 d6 seems more precise to me. After 1.d4 f5, White could try 2.g4.
  
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Re: Dutch refuted by Staunton gambit???
Reply #23 - 10/14/10 at 09:23:54
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/14/10 at 08:03:30:
parisestmagique wrote on 10/14/10 at 07:29:19:
With the move order 1.d4 d6 or 1.d4 g6 the problem is clearly 2.e4! 

I disagree, after 1.d4 d6 2.e4 Black can play 2...f5, the Balogh Defence, which is an excellent weapon.  Wink


Are you suggesting 1.d4 f5 2.e4 d6 then?
  

Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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Re: Dutch refuted by Staunton gambit???
Reply #22 - 10/14/10 at 08:03:30
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parisestmagique wrote on 10/14/10 at 07:29:19:
With the move order 1.d4 d6 or 1.d4 g6 the problem is clearly 2.e4! 

I disagree, after 1.d4 d6 2.e4 Black can play 2...f5, the Balogh Defence, which is an excellent weapon.  Wink
  
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parisestmagique
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Re: Dutch refuted by Staunton gambit???
Reply #21 - 10/14/10 at 07:29:19
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With the move order 1.d4 d6 or 1.d4 g6 the problem is clearly 2.e4!
  
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Re: Dutch refuted by Staunton gambit???
Reply #20 - 10/13/10 at 23:12:56
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brabo wrote on 09/16/10 at 21:26:59:
I had a deep look this summer at 1.d4 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Nc6 5.d5 Ne5 6.Qe2 because I got it in one of my games on the board.

A)
6. ...Nf7 looks risky because of 7. Nh3 (An English amateur called Brown, recently tested this with success against his much higher rated opponent) e5! 8.dxe6 (e.p.) dxe6 and now 9.Nxe4 as well as 9.Bd2 lead to very interesting play. Besides the better known 7.Bxf6 exf6 8.Nxe4 Be7! 9.d6 cxd6 10.0-0-0 isn't really enjoyable either for black although I must admit that I couldn't find a clear advantage for white.

B)
6. ... d6 7.Nxe4 (Again a wonderful idea of the English amateur although there are other interesting tries: f4, Bxf6 and 0-0-0) Nxd5 8.Nf3 Nxf3+ 9.Qxf3 Be6! 10.c4 Nb4 11.Qc3 Nc6 12.Be2 and white still has nice compensation for the pawn. The last moves of black were certainly not easy to find so I expect more Nxe4 in the future although I must admit that 6. ... d6 isn't played that often

C)
6. ... c6 (My favorite) 7.0-0-0 (The most natural choice although 7.Bxf6 and 7.f4 aren't without venom either.)
C1)
7. ... cxd5?! (Win with the Stonewall Dutch recommends this move but I don't like it) 8.f4! (Not discussed in the book) Nf7 9.Bxf6 gxf6 10.Nxd5 e6?! (A bit better is 10. ... Nd6 11.Qh5 Nf7 12.Re1 e6 13.Rxe4 +/=) 11.Qxe4 Be7 12.Nxe7N (An easy amelioration on Schleber - Luetke with big advantage for white)
C2)
7. ... Nxd5N (A new move and my favorite. Besides this, I think 7. ... d6 looks also playable although more risky.) 8.Nxd5 (Rybkas favorite but probably Fritz 8.Nxe4 is safer) Nf7! 9.Nf4 Nxg5 10.Qh5+ Nf7 11.Bc4 g6 12.Bxf7+ Kxf7 13.Nxg6 and white wins the exchange but black gets marvelous counterplay for it.

This were just a few critical lines out of my long analysis to explain that the whole variation is still in his childshoes.


Exceptional post Brabo, much appreciated. Nice work.
  
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Re: Dutch refuted by Staunton gambit???
Reply #19 - 10/11/10 at 20:38:20
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The variation 1.d4 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Nc6 5.d5 Ne5 6.Qe2 is very dangerous and on OTB game almost difficult to handle for black, The game Irina Krush-Efstratios Grivas, Wijk aan Zeem Group C 2008, it is a very good example despite the fact black  won. Krush went astray in the critical moment. Dutch is a very demanding opening and to play it in its pure form 1.d4 f5, needs lots of studying, white has lot of crazy and playabel gambits to play, or even moves like 2.Bg5,2.Nc3,2.Bf4,2.h3. For me Dutch can be played only by playing 1.d4 d6 or e6, but in that case black must be ready for 2.e4
I think the position from all the chess programs is assesed as white is slightly better for white from 0.48 to 0.63
  
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