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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Yugoslav 9 0-0-0 (Read 13605 times)
XChess1971
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #28 - 10/12/19 at 12:56:12
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I do not believe in those books. Those lines are not deeply analyzed. If I am not wrong in one of those books they analyze 17...h6 which is apparently bad. When 17...Rb8 is stronger!
« Last Edit: 10/12/19 at 21:21:19 by XChess1971 »  
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bragesjo
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #27 - 08/11/19 at 20:35:30
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XChess1971 wrote on 08/10/19 at 19:39:22:
Would you mention the books?


Both Modernized The Open Sicilian  and Dismantling the Sicilian latest edition went for the trendy 14 Kb1 in 9000 Yugoslav d5 Qe1.

Playing 1 e4 went for Ne4 instead and gives an improvement  for black in kb1 line  Computers don't see the strength of the black improvement until the lines is played for several moves and only after that they see it when at high depths.
  
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XChess1971
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #26 - 08/10/19 at 19:39:22
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Would you mention the books?
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #25 - 07/14/19 at 07:01:47
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About Nxc3 line I have not looked at it for a while but as I remembered the improvement was in some line that computers rates as harmless at first sight. But years have passed so there might be some counter improvement.

About Qe1 line two recent white books went for the trendy Kb1 in a position where Kb1 is way to slow and black gets a tempo to eqalice by playing a5 and sacrifice a pawn one .move later.
  
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XChess1971
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #24 - 07/13/19 at 02:49:59
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tony37 wrote on 07/11/19 at 15:04:39:
This is a correspondence game of mine in that line:


but then 10...e6 isn't the main line
On move 10 I also analyzed 10.Kb1 a bit, but 10.exd5 looked too drawish to me


Interesting but it looks like 10.Qe1 e5 is stronger. Even correspondence games are looking OK for black.
  
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XChess1971
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #23 - 07/13/19 at 02:35:11
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bragesjo wrote on 07/12/19 at 08:54:43:
In the threads original line Nxc3 is considered to be better for white, there was some sort of improvement where white gets the better endgame. Qe1 system became popular because black gets some play in Bxd4 Qxd4 Qb6 system.


I looked at some correspondence games recently and in most of them black scored pretty well with  12..Nxc3 if I am not wrong!
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #22 - 07/12/19 at 08:54:43
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In the threads original line Nxc3 is considered to be better for white, there was some sort of improvement where white gets the better endgame. Qe1 system became popular because black gets some play in Bxd4 Qxd4 Qb6 system.
  
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #21 - 07/12/19 at 07:29:02
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Hi.

tony37 wrote on 07/11/19 at 15:04:39:
This is a correspondence game of mine in that line:


but then 10...e6 isn't the main line
On move 10 I also analyzed 10.Kb1 a bit, but 10.exd5 looked too drawish to me


Very correspondence like game, but nice win. Did not look any fun at all to play black.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #20 - 07/11/19 at 15:04:39
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This is a correspondence game of mine in that line:


but then 10...e6 isn't the main line
On move 10 I also analyzed 10.Kb1 a bit, but 10.exd5 looked too drawish to me
  
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #19 - 07/11/19 at 13:46:31
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Interest has shifted towards 10.Qe1, as recommended in Shaw's recent book on Sicilian Mainlines. My impression is that if White plays precisely to contain Black's activity, then the second player faces a very unpleasant defense.
  
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XChess1971
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #18 - 07/10/19 at 18:01:56
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Anybody knows the status of this system?
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #17 - 01/13/09 at 11:32:46
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Looking with Rybka 3, after a while Rybka comes up with an interesting novelty after Re1, simply Rd7 followed By Rfd8 and depending how white reacts black avances the c pawn. In many lines this leeds to endings where white has an extra pawn but black has much more active pieces. This may be the solution ot blacks problems in the critical Re1 line, a line i consider to be more dangerous than the mainline.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #16 - 03/15/08 at 18:10:43
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OstapBender wrote on 03/15/08 at 16:17:39:
What's the idea behind 18.Re1 anyway?  Doesn't it make more sense to just develop with 18.Bd3?


The idea is to prevent Rd5 (but in the game white didnt play Bc4) and reduce blacks counterplay. After 18 Bd3 Rd5 black gets some play (but not much if white knows theory all the way). Blacks gets more play after Bd3 Rd5 compare to Re1 line. Also in some lines white can get play agaisnt the e6 square, including exchange sacs on e6.
  
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #15 - 03/15/08 at 16:17:39
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What's the idea behind 18.Re1 anyway?  Doesn't it make more sense to just develop with 18.Bd3?
  

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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #14 - 03/08/08 at 18:38:24
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Quote:
Can you post that game?

After Qf2 Golubev recommends Qa5 and I dont see any good way to go for as black


[Event "Hoogeveen Essent op"]
[Site "Hoogeveen"]
[Date "2007.10.12"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Ruijgrok,Dennis"]
[Black "Van Delft,Merijn"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "B76"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6
9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Nxc3 13.Qxc3 Bh6+ 14.Be3 Bxe3+ 15.Qxe3 Qb6 16.Qxe7 Be6
17.Qa3 Qf2 18.Qa5 Rab8 19.b3 Rfe8 20.h4 h5 21.Qc3 Rbd8 22.Bd3 Qxg2 23.Be4 Rxd1+ 24.Rxd1 Bd5
25.Bxd5 cxd5 26.Rxd5 Qh1+ 27.Kb2 Qxh4 28.b4 Qf4 29.b5 Kh7 30.Rd4 Qg5 31.a4 Re3 32.f4 Qe7
33.Rd7 Qxd7 34.Qxe3 h4 35.f5 Qxf5 36.Qxa7 h3 37.Qd4 h2 38.Qh4+ Qh5 39.Qf6 h1=Q 40.Qxf7+ Kh6
41.Qf4+ Qg5 42.Qf8+ Kh5 43.Qh8+ Qh6 44.Qe5+ Kg4 45.Qe6+ Kg3 46.Qd6+ Kf2 47.Qg3+ Kxg3 0-1
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #13 - 03/03/08 at 17:04:43
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Can you post that game?

After Qf2 Golubev recommends Qa5 and I dont see any good way to go for as black
  
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #12 - 03/02/08 at 11:12:30
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Perhaps 17... Qf2 is the way to go for Black. It was recently played by van Delft with good success.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #11 - 02/20/08 at 20:13:47
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I meant of course after Rd5 Smiley



  
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #10 - 02/20/08 at 17:39:40
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Quote:
The only question is why didnt white play Bc4 in the first place?

Which move are you thinking of? Playing Bc4 is only possible after Rd5, isnt it?
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #9 - 02/20/08 at 17:28:01
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I agree that only white can win. The only question is why didnt white play Bc4 in the first place? And are their any improvments earlyer after Re1?
  
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #8 - 02/20/08 at 13:29:29
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At least I learn some grammar here  Wink
  
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #7 - 02/20/08 at 13:05:47
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Sorry, just a bit of English:

Much safer / Much more safe.

(I am afraid in Spain they only teach grammar Grin ) Undecided
  

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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #6 - 02/20/08 at 00:37:43
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I don't know if your analysis is correct, but your assessment of the diagrammed position certainly is. Black cannot even generate counterplay with 29...Ra8 as 30.h4 a4 31.Rb4 a3+ 32.Kb2 only contributes to the safety of His White Majesty.
  

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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #5 - 02/19/08 at 19:45:03
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Quote:
Why does Rybka think Black is in trouble?

As I dont have chess machine goddess Rybka I have to rely on my friend shredder, lets call him pinky, and my second friend, the brain.

So the Pinky and the Brain had a look at the position and moved on a bit further:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 O-O 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.O-O-O d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Nxc3 13.Qxc3 Bh6+ 14.Be3 Bxe3+ 15.Qxe3 Qb6 16.Qxe7 Be6 17.Qa3 Rad8 18.Re1 Rd5 19.Bc4 Ra5 20.Qc3 Bxc4 21.Qxc4 Rb8 22.b3 Rxa2 23.Re7 Rf8 24.Qc3 Ra5 25.Kb2

Starting with 19.Bc4 all looks logical and somehow forced - white now tries to exchange a pair of rooks to reach a so called "NQE" (GM Flear - "Not Quiet an Endgame" or "nuckie" - see "Practical endgame play").

So the following moves may be (of course black can try deviation, but can he hinder whites plan?)  25...Rd5 26.Rhe1 a5 27.Re8 Rd8 28.Rxf8+ Rxf8 29.Re4

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Position after 29.Re4 - starting point for the "nuckie"

In this nuckie I think white has a large advantage due to two factors:

1) the white King is much more safer than the black one - because with the rook on the fourth black cannot manage a breakthrough, white is in the possesion of the long diagonal (a very important factor for safety) and will rush up with the h-pawn (if black block with h5 then g4 will follow)

2)blacks queenside pawns are weak - he has to avoid the exchange of queens when white king and rook could very fast attack them. But on the other hand with the queens on board point 1) is counting - blacks king is in danger

Summing up:

The Pinky and the Brain think that Rybka is right in its evaluation and black is in trouble.

Thanks a lot for this game - there are similar games in Experts vs. Sicilian, but this one looks even more clearer to me. Thats the way to play for a win in this variation from whites point of view.

Any counter arguments heartly welcome!
  
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #4 - 02/18/08 at 16:05:23
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Yes you are right. I have never played this variation myself (I usually plays e5 system) agianst any human player but I have tried it a few times agianst computers with variating results. Many variation are drawish, a few are good for black and in some lines black is fighting for a draw.
  
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #3 - 02/18/08 at 08:35:46
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Fair enough.  I think it's not that beneficial to focus on the scores that the computers give to the position, and instead to look at the moves that they suggest.  The position seems to slightly favor white because of the split queenside pawns, but Black seems to be out of immediate danger.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #2 - 02/18/08 at 08:14:56
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I fail to see any forced won via Rybka. The funiest thing is when I switch engine to Fritz 10 the position is assest as 0.00 Smiley
I played Rybkas move and switched to Fritz and switch to rybka etc.

Since my Playchess account has expired I will probely buy Fritz 11 and there might see a third assesment Smiley
  
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Re: Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
Reply #1 - 02/17/08 at 22:45:57
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It doesn't look like Black is in such bad shape even after 19.Bc4.  After 24...Ra5-d5 or (-c5 or something similar), it seems that Black is doing OK.  Why does Rybka think Black is in trouble?
  
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Yugoslav 9 0-0-0
02/17/08 at 20:12:17
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I looked at the games played in Swedish Elite and one of the Dragon games comes at following but what do you think black should play if white played 19 Bc4? Rybka cleary favors white. Note that Re1 is both very rare and the only move in Rybkas opening book.

[Event "Elit(Sollentuna-Solna)"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2008.02.02"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Lindberg, Bengt"]
[Black "Carlsson, Pontus"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B76"]
[WhiteElo "2458"]
[BlackElo "2607"]
[PlyCount "58"]
[EventDate "2008.??.??"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 Nxc3 13. Qxc3 Bh6+ 14. Be3
Bxe3+ 15. Qxe3 Qb6 16. Qxe7 Be6 17. Qa3 Rad8 18. Re1 Rd5 19. Qe3 (19. Bc4 Ra5
20. Qc3 Bxc4 21. Qxc4 Rb8 22. b3 Rxa2 23. Re7 Rf8 24. Qc3) 19... Rc5 20. b3 a5
21. Bd3 a4 22. c4 Rb8 23. Re2 axb3 24. axb3 Qxb3 25. Qd4 Bxc4 26. Qxc5 Bxd3 27.
Rf2 Bf5 28. Rhf1 Qb1+ 29. Kd2 Qd3+ 0-1

  
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