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Normal Topic BUDAPEST GAMBIT HELP (Read 4536 times)
Klick
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Re: Budapest gambit help
Reply #5 - 03/19/09 at 10:29:31
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Interesting idea John, but regrettably it doesn`t seem to stand up to close computer-scrutiny.

The aforementioned discussion by Gary Lane can be found at http://www.chesscafe.com/text/lane48.pdf

13..Kf8 actually seems best. I`ve played around with some lines and found some  ideas. (Downloading the attached pgn-file makes going through the following much easier.)

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nbd2 Qe7 7. e3 Ngxe5 8. Nxe5 Nxe5 9. a3 Bxd2+ 10. Qxd2 d6 11. c5 dxc5 12. Qd5 Ng6 13. Bb5+ Kf8 14. Bg3 c6 15. Qd2 Kg8 16. Be2 (looks better than Bd3) Be6 17. Qd6 (At first I didn`t want to exchange queens, but instead try to use the bishop-pair, kingside pawn-majority and boxed in rook on h8 to do something. I tried ideas based on h4 and f4, but couldn`t make them work.)  Qxd6 18. Bxd6 c4 19. Rd1 Rd8 20. e4 h5 21. f4 Rxd6 22. Rxd6 Nxf4 23. g3 Nxe2 24. Rd8+ Kh7 25. Rxh8+ Kxh8 26. Kxe2 Kh7 27. Ke3 , followed by Rd1 and Rd8 looks better for white.

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21. ... Bg4 looks like a better idea 22. Bxg4 hxg4 23. Kf2 Re8 24. Rd4 f5!  and I haven`t been able to find anything

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So maybe 23. f5 Nf8 24. Kf2 Re8 25. Ke3 instead

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and now 25...Nd7 26. Kf4 Nf6 27. Rde1 g3 28. h4 b6 29. e5 Nh5+ 30. Kf3 Rh6 31. Re4 b5 32. Rhe1 a6 looks like it could be something for white, but regrettably I haven`t been able to find anything special after 25..g6

Thoughts?
  
AnalysisBudapest.pgn ( 1 KB | 152 Downloads )
There just isn't enough televised chess - DAVID LETTERMAN
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John Hall
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Re: BUDAPEST GAMBIT HELP
Reply #4 - 03/03/08 at 19:11:24
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DoubledPawns wrote on 02/29/08 at 21:38:20:
John Hall wrote on 02/29/08 at 20:36:01:
This has been my main response to the budapest for a while. I believe it is promising for white. Gary Lane has some very interesting coverage of it in an old 'Opening Lanes' on chesscafe.com- where (IMO) he basically shows a refutation of the ...c6 line.

In practuve I have faced both the Kf8 line and Bd7 lines and have been satisfied with the positions I have obtained (although the Bd7 line leads to fairly drawish positions).


Do you have any improvements on the game I mentioned?


Fair question! I have to admit- not really. I did face ...Kf8 once OTB, and since I had not seen the move in any of my sources, I had thought it was bad. I wish I could find the game score- because something weird happened- somehow he lost a tempo- but we entered into the endgame you quote above- but me up a tempo and able to immeditaley win the c5 pawn. Anyways- thats not so relevant.

I would suggest 18. Be2 (instead of Bd3) as a "possible" improvement. The idea of course is to follow up with 19. Rd1 and if black did nothing to stop it then 20. Bd6+ and 21. Bxc5. This is unlikely to happen- but a sample line:

19. Be2 Bf5
20. Rd1 Rd8
21. Rxd8 Kxd8
22. Bd6 still wins back the pawn

22 ... b6?!
23. Bf8 (if 23 ...g6 the knight is lost and if 23 ..g5 then 24. Bg7 followed by Bf6+ and Bxg5)

Anways- white has an edge here clearly- so 19 ...Bf5 followed by 20 ...Rd8 doesnt work. So maybe it's not easy to stop white from grabbing back his pawn- in which case white is better with the two bishops and competing pawn majorities. But this is non-engine analysis- so no doubt I have missed something!

John
  
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DoubledPawns
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1.a3 e5 2.Nc3 Ba3 3.Ne4
Bf8 4.Ra5 Ke7 5.Re5#

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Re: BUDAPEST GAMBIT HELP
Reply #3 - 02/29/08 at 21:38:20
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John Hall wrote on 02/29/08 at 20:36:01:
This has been my main response to the budapest for a while. I believe it is promising for white. Gary Lane has some very interesting coverage of it in an old 'Opening Lanes' on chesscafe.com- where (IMO) he basically shows a refutation of the ...c6 line.

In practuve I have faced both the Kf8 line and Bd7 lines and have been satisfied with the positions I have obtained (although the Bd7 line leads to fairly drawish positions).


Do you have any improvements on the game I mentioned?
  
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something - Plato
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John Hall
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Re: BUDAPEST GAMBIT HELP
Reply #2 - 02/29/08 at 20:36:01
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This has been my main response to the budapest for a while. I believe it is promising for white. Gary Lane has some very interesting coverage of it in an old 'Opening Lanes' on chesscafe.com- where (IMO) he basically shows a refutation of the ...c6 line.

In practuve I have faced both the Kf8 line and Bd7 lines and have been satisfied with the positions I have obtained (although the Bd7 line leads to fairly drawish positions).
  
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DoubledPawns
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1.a3 e5 2.Nc3 Ba3 3.Ne4
Bf8 4.Ra5 Ke7 5.Re5#

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Re: BUDAPEST GAMBIT HELP
Reply #1 - 02/29/08 at 10:16:52
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The position after 11.c5 has occured 15 times in practice according to Mega Database 2008, with White scoring 63% (+7, =5, -3). However, White's average rating was 179 points higher than Black's, so I would see this result as being a success for Black statistically.

Black is forced to take on c5 (11...0-0 12.cd6 cd6 13.Be2 +/-), when after 12.Qd5, 12...Nc6 has never been played in practice, but your recommended 12...Ng6 has done very well in practice, leading to the following position:

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After 13.Bb5, Black can play 13...c6, 13...Bd7 or even 13...Kf8!?, all of which look fine for Black, although the game with 13...Kf8 looks like the most reliable reference. Here is the game below:

Drazic (2465)-Facchetti (2160), Milan Crespi open 2002:

14.0-0-0 c6 15.Qd8 Qd8 16.Rd8 Ke7 17.Rh8 Nh8 18.Bd3 Ng6 and White's two bishops did not fully suffice for the pawn. White continued with 19.Bg6 hg6 20.Rd1 and White eventually drew the game, although Black retained some winning chances throughout.

However, 12.Qc3 is also possible. After 12...f6 13.Rc1 I think White has enough compensation for the pawn, but not enough to claim any advantage. For example: 13...b6 14.Be5 Qe5 15.Bb5 and instead of the previously played 15...Bd7?!, 15...Ke7! looks equal.

Conclusion: 11.c5 is harmless as long as Black is careful. However, note that 10...0-0?! 11.c5! is very good for White.
  
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something - Plato
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Templare2
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BUDAPEST GAMBIT HELP
02/28/08 at 16:55:23
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I've to find a sound and aggressive line against the Budapest Gambit. Reading "The Budapest for The Tournament Player" I've found this variation:

1. d4 Nf6  2. c4 e5  3. dxe5 Ng4  4. Bf4 Nc6  5. Nf3 Bb4+  6. Nbd2 Qe7  7. a3 Ngxe5  8. Nxe5 Nxe5  9. e3 Bxd2+  10. Qxd2 d6 and now in a little note: 11. c5 (a raccommendation of Speelman) dxc5  12. Qd5 Nc6 ( ! according to Tseitlin & Glaskov but 12.., Ng6 is better) 13. Bb5 0-0 14. Rc1 Nd4 - end of the analysis.-

In my opinion after 15. Bg5 Black's position is worse.

15.., Qe6 16. Qxe6 Nxe6  17. Be7  or
15.., Be6 16. Bxe7 Bxd5  17. exd4

You are surely better players than me so I'd like to ask You: what do You think about it? And what line do You can suggest to fight against the BG if 12.., Ng6 leads to an equal position?

Thanks
  
"Forza e onore!"
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