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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM (Read 29182 times)
Nietzsche
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #15 - 03/05/08 at 20:01:53
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I used to teach the Colle to my students, but they had SO much trouble against the Grunfeld setup (and a quick ...c5/...Qc7) that I've now stopped.  I think the Colle is very good against ...e6/...d5 stuff but too complicated when black plays ...g6 and breaks via ...c5.

BTW, there is also Martin's recent DVD on Anti-Queen Pawn systems which covers the colle as well as the rev. stonewall, the torre, the tromp, etc.

Nietzsce

ps - depending on your level, you should check out Palliser's Starting Out: Colle
  

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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #14 - 03/05/08 at 17:19:35
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Hi Templare2,

maybe we should know your usual repertoire against the Queen´s gambit !? It´s no good idea to prepare something new for one single game and there is no need to do that way. In fact, there are several good ways for Black to deal with the Colle and you can play any three or four natural moves as in your main weapon against d4 main lines.
Even 1d4 d5 2Nf3 Nf6 3e3 e6 is absolutely okay as long as Black continues actively (fighting for e5 square with c5/Nc6/Bd6/Qc7) instead of remaining passively and castling into the attack (Be7/0-0/c6/h6/Re8 and the likes). If an early e6 is your usual prefernce (QGD or Nimzo) you should not hesitate to play it and learn the Colle main lines!
Of course psychologically Colle players are more afraid of Dutch, Slav, Grünfeld or King´s Indian setups, because they don´t get their usual patterns.

tracke  Smiley
« Last Edit: 03/06/08 at 10:25:23 by tracke »  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #13 - 03/05/08 at 15:09:57
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The answer against the Colle is very very easy! And there is in Bronznik book about the Colle!

The best black has is a Gruenfeld set-up d5-Bg7-c5-Nc6 and Qc7 followed by e5. A usual combination is ...e5 dxe5 Ng4! I can provide you with the specific move orders when i get to my notebook!
  
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MNb
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #12 - 03/05/08 at 14:41:35
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There is 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 you know ... No Benoni, no NID, no QGD but safely within White's comfort zone.  Wink
  

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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #11 - 03/05/08 at 09:37:33
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If your opponent is a devout Colle enthusiast. Than play

1.d4 Nf6 Now if white plays e3 then 3.g6 followed by Bg7 and d6 is going to spoil his fun. One idea worth watching for is at the right moment playing Nfd7 followed by e5.

Of course white can switch to 2.Nf3 or 2.c4 then you can play 2..e6 and white has to be prepared for Nimzoindian Benoni or even a queens gambit. A colle addict will probably not be terrible pleased that he is out of his comfort zone.
  

I am hopelessly addicted to the King's Gambit
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #10 - 03/05/08 at 09:12:15
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Hello,

Opps in the line in "How to beat 1. d4" was thinking of 12h3 Bxp. With the other moves black looks active enough, in the IQP. Although must admit Re1, followed by Be3 does look solid for white.
              Other line have looked at 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 c6 (3...Bg4 same idea preparing e5, but 4.c4 another type QGA) 4. Bd3 Bg4 with Nd7 and e5 to follow.

Bye John S
  
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MNb
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #9 - 03/04/08 at 22:50:12
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OK, how about this? The improved Stonewall.
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 (hope you don't mind 3.c4) 3.e3 Bg4 followed by 4...e6; 5...f5; 6...Nf6; 7...0-0; 8...Nbd7; 9...Qe8 and 10...g5.
White can avoid it with 4.Be2 e6 5.Ne5 Bxe2 6.Qxe2 Nd7 7.f4 but Nxe5 8.fxe5 Qh4+ 9.g3 Qe4 10.0-0 f6 (Black will castle queenside) is still unbalanced.
  

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Templare2
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #8 - 03/04/08 at 22:32:03
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Not so desperate...  but You are almost convincing.

mmmhh... 1. d4 e6  2. Nf3 f5

On the other hand there is 1. d4 d5  2. Nf3 Nf6  3. e3 g6!? with the idea  4. Bd3 Bg7  5. c3 Nbd7  6. Nbd2 c5  7. 0-0 0-0  8. e4 dxe4   9. Nxe4 cxd4  10. Nxd4 Nxe4  11. Bxe4 Nf6 Colle- Monticelli San Remo 1930.

Or the interesting 8..,cxd4  9. e5 dxc3!?  10. exf6 Bxf6  11.bxc3 Bxc3  Black would have thrre pawns and a mobile ceneter for the piece ( Watson)

Both ideas ( Dutch or Colle/grunfeld) are interesting.
  

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MNb
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #7 - 03/04/08 at 21:31:53
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Templare2 wrote on 03/04/08 at 18:03:03:
MNb wrote on 03/03/08 at 22:43:24:
This might lead to the Baltic Variation 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Bf5 or even the Slow Slav (is this the right name?) 4.e3 Bf5.
If you about 100% sure you will meet the Colle you might gamble and try 1...f5 or 1...d6/1...e6 and 2...f5. The Colle is not particularly strong against the Dutch, while the latter is very asymmetrical.


This is an idea but I never play the Dutch and if my opponent smells a rat and play c4 the question is: what to do in my game?

That is the gamble indeed ... At the other hand, if he is a typical ultra solid queen's pawn openings wood shifter, he is highly unlikely to know how to handle the Dutch as well. I know from experience that lack of aggression against this opening very quickly leads to Black getting the initiative. Do you remember Nigel Davies' article on Old Geezers at chesscafe? 1/2...f5 is one solution.
So - how desperate are you?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Templare2
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #6 - 03/04/08 at 18:11:37
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MarinFan wrote on 03/04/08 at 08:13:10:
Hello,

Since have "How to beat 1. d4" book, why not use the line(s) recommended there? Have you looked at the line with sac on h2, in the pure colle lines with c3, and bd3?, would get quite good winning chances if managed to spring that.


The line  that  put me off is: 1. d4 d5  2. Nf3 Nf6  3. e3 e6  4. Bd3 c5  5. c3 Nc6  6. Nbd2 Bd6  7. 0-0 0-0  8. dxc5 Bxc5  9. e4 Qc7  10. exd5 exd5  11. Nb3 Bb6

Now White has some solid lines ( 12. Bc2  12. Re1  12. Nbd4  12. Qc2) that can be more appealing for a Colle specialist.
  

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Templare2
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #5 - 03/04/08 at 18:03:03
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MNb wrote on 03/03/08 at 22:43:24:
This might lead to the Baltic Variation 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Bf5 or even the Slow Slav (is this the right name?) 4.e3 Bf5.
If you about 100% sure you will meet the Colle you might gamble and try 1...f5 or 1...d6/1...e6 and 2...f5. The Colle is not particularly strong against the Dutch, while the latter is very asymmetrical.


This is an idea but I never play the Dutch and if my opponent smells a rat and play c4 the question is: what to do in my game?
  

"Forza e onore!"
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #4 - 03/04/08 at 08:13:10
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Hello,

Since have "How to beat 1. d4" book, why not use the line(s) recommended there? Have you looked at the line with sac on h2, in the pure colle lines with c3, and bd3?, would get quite good winning chances if managed to spring that. The line with bf5 can be almost too solid for winning chances. Particularly if white sticks to the usual with, c3 and Bd3 very flat lines can result.
                         Otherwise if opponent is a complete colle addict play a setup were it is completely toothless, like other posters have suggested. For example, the colle is  silly against the KID, where white is preparing a move, which black is happy to allow at anytime.

Bye John S
  
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MNb
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #3 - 03/03/08 at 22:43:24
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This might lead to the Baltic Variation 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Bf5 or even the Slow Slav (is this the right name?) 4.e3 Bf5.
If you about 100% sure you will meet the Colle you might gamble and try 1...f5 or 1...d6/1...e6 and 2...f5. The Colle is not particularly strong against the Dutch, while the latter is very asymmetrical.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Templare2
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #2 - 03/03/08 at 10:03:04
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Thanks Bob. So not 1. d4 d5  2. Cf3 Cf6  3. e3 e6 but   3. e3 Bf5?
  

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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #1 - 03/03/08 at 03:26:58
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If you are a d5 player develop your light squared bishop. If you are an indian player a KID setup makes things antisymmetrical. The Colle only gives white good play when black plays both d5 and locks the bishop with e6.
  
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