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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM (Read 27031 times)
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #30 - 03/21/08 at 02:36:15
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Nietzsche wrote on 03/05/08 at 20:01:53:
I used to teach the Colle to my students,


A subtle form of abuse, no doubt.   Shocked


I would never treat people I care about that way.  Wink
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #29 - 03/21/08 at 02:12:58
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Eh?  3...c5 is unlikely to become a Benoni.  It could become a Nimzo (as could 3...b6 or 3...d5) ...unless White continues à la Colle of course.
  
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #28 - 03/21/08 at 00:03:35
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Matemax wrote on 03/20/08 at 13:47:30:
sssthepro wrote on 03/20/08 at 13:44:14:
Then what do you guys recommend after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3? I dont like 3...d5

You could go 3...c5 first - but sooner or later you should play d5 taking your space in the centre - nothing bad about it, or?



The problem is, I don't play the Benoni. I play the Nimzo Indian Sad.
  
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #27 - 03/20/08 at 18:44:33
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I notice that Cvetkovic and Sokolov in an old edition of ECO gave 5. Qxd3 and 5. cd as both leading to a slight advantage for White.  (The latest edition of ECO doesn't mention 4...Bxd3 -- go figure.)  Pachman later gave 5. cd an exclam, with the same evaluation and the same game citation (Colle-Bogoljubov 1930).  Nunn in NCO gives 5. Qxd3 and 5. cd as both leading to equality, with Black playing differently, e.g. with 5...e6 (plus ...c5) instead of 5...c6 after 5. cd.  Offhand, Nunn's variations and evaluations seem more plausible to me.  In the 5. Qxd3 line, both Nunn and old ECO have White playing with Nbd2 plus e4 rather than c4; I would perceive this as a sort of improved Burn French, where the added exchange of light-squared bishops should shift the evaluation from += to =.
  
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #26 - 03/20/08 at 17:05:50
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kylemeister wrote on 03/20/08 at 15:45:18:
The bit about playing ...Bxd3 (only) after White has moved his c-pawn is a bit mysterious.  I don't think Black fears cxd3; maybe you mean that if White has played c3, he won't have c4 in one go.  But e.g. 4...Bxd3 5. Qxd3 c6 6. c4 e6 produces a Slow Slav position which is supposed to be fine for Black.  Although 4...e6 is the most standard move there, it seems debatable to say that it's better than 4...Bxd3, since it seems they should both lead to equality.

I had thought that 4...e6 was the main move because it was better than 4...Bxd3, but if 4...Bxd3 5.cxd3 is nothing for Black to worry about then I guess you're right.  It's evident that Black has no problem equalizing against 5.Qxd3.

Thanks for the information!
  

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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #25 - 03/20/08 at 15:45:18
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The bit about playing ...Bxd3 (only) after White has moved his c-pawn is a bit mysterious.  I don't think Black fears cxd3; maybe you mean that if White has played c3, he won't have c4 in one go.  But e.g. 4...Bxd3 5. Qxd3 c6 6. c4 e6 produces a Slow Slav position which is supposed to be fine for Black.  Although 4...e6 is the most standard move there, it seems debatable to say that it's better than 4...Bxd3, since it seems they should both lead to equality.

Regarding 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. e3 without (3)...d5, there is 3...c5 followed by ...b6, generally not moving the d-pawn for a while.  Black might end up with a sort of favorable French.  Kovacevic-Seirawan, Indonesia 1983 might be an example.  (The same sort of setup is sometimes played against the Torre; I recall Velikov-Tal 1986 as a model game for Black there.)
  
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #24 - 03/20/08 at 14:57:13
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Templare2 wrote on 03/03/08 at 10:03:04:
Thanks Bob. So not 1. d4 d5  2. Cf3 Cf6  3. e3 e6 but   3. e3 Bf5?


MNb wrote on 03/03/08 at 22:43:24:
This might lead to the Baltic Variation 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Bf5 or even the Slow Slav (is this the right name?) 4.e3 Bf5.

The ideas suggested earlier in this thread are fine, but I wanted to point out that 3...Bf5 is also a perfectly good way to meet (or rather avoid) the Colle.  If White plays 4.c4 you reply 4...c6 (4...e6 might also be an option?) and get the so-called Slow Slav (I think this is the right name).  

If White continues with 4.Bd3 (I see this quite a bit, apparently from die-hard Colle players) then Black should continue with 4...e6, not worrying about 5.Bxf5 exf5 which is fine for Black.  Note that 4...e6 is better than 4...Bxd3.  Probably a good rule of thumb here is that Black should not initiate the bishop trade unless White moves his c-pawn.  For example, 5.c3 (instead of 5.Bxf5) should be answered by 5...Bxd3.

An example is the game Vorotnikov-Kobalija, RUS-Cup03 (Geller mem) Moscow (5), 14.02.1999 which continued:

5.Bxf5 exf5 6.Qd3

[6.0–0 Nbd7 7.c4 dxc4 8.Qa4 Bd6 9.Nbd2 0–0 10.Nxc4 Nb6 11.Nxb6 axb6 12.Qc2 Qd7 13.Ne5 Qe6 14.Nc4 Be7 15.Bd2 Rfd8 16.a4 Ne4 Colle-Alekhine, San Remo 1930/0–1 (28)]

6...Qc8 7.c4

[7.b3 Na6 8.0–0 Be7 9.c4 0–0 10.Nc3 c6 11.Bb2 Ne4 12.Rfc1 Rd8 13.Qe2 Qe6= Alekhine-Euwe, Wch16 1935/½–½ (23)]

7...dxc4 8.Qxc4 Bd6 9.Nc3 c6 10.b4 0–0 11.b5 Nbd7 12.Bb2 Nb6 13.Qb3 a6 14.bxc6 Qxc6 15.0–0 Nc4 16.Rfc1 Rac8 17.h3 Rc7 18.Ne5 Bxe5 19.dxe5 Nd7 20.Ne2 b5

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
                     Nice knight on c4, eh?

and concluded with 21.Qc2 Nc5 22.Bd4 g6 23.Nc3 Ne6 24.Qb3 Re8 25.a4 b4 26.Ne2 a5 27.Rd1 Qa6 28.Qd3 Qb7 29.Nc1 Rd8 30.Nb3 Nb2 31.Bxb2 Rxd3 32.Rxd3 Rc2 33.Bd4 f4 34.Rad1 Qc6 35.Nxa5 Qxa4 36.Nb3 Qc6 37.Ra1 Qe4 38.Rad1 f3 39.g4 Ng5 40.R3d2 Nxh3+ 0–1

Of course I wouldn't claim that Black won here strictly because of the opening, but Black's opening was still prefectly satisfactory - White got no advantage to speak of.  [The game is annotated in CBM 70 if you have access to this]
  

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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #23 - 03/20/08 at 13:47:30
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sssthepro wrote on 03/20/08 at 13:44:14:
Then what do you guys recommend after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3? I dont like 3...d5

You could go 3...c5 first - but sooner or later you should play d5 taking your space in the centre - nothing bad about it, or?
  
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #22 - 03/20/08 at 13:44:14
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Then what do you guys recommend after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3? I dont like 3...d5
  
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #21 - 03/08/08 at 13:58:33
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Just be careful on the move order if you want to play the dutch.

As white i often play with good results 1.d4 e6 2.nf3 f5 3.d5!? which can be tricky to the unprepared black player. The idea is 3...exd5 4.qxd5 e6 5.ng5 and besides the mate also nxh7 is a threat as the g8 knight will be unprotected. If this AMAZING trick doesn't work white nonetheless has some chances of achieving a good, dinamic and out of theory game.

No big deal for black if you know what to do but... you must know it! Cheesy
  
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #20 - 03/06/08 at 09:00:22
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Ametanoitos wrote on 03/05/08 at 15:09:57:
The answer against the Colle is very very easy! And there is in Bronznik book about the Colle!

The best black has is a Gruenfeld set-up d5-Bg7-c5-Nc6 and Qc7 followed by e5. A usual combination is ...e5 dxe5 Ng4! I can provide you with the specific move orders when i get to my notebook!


Many Thanks Ametanoitos!
  

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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #19 - 03/06/08 at 08:49:54
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MNb wrote on 03/04/08 at 22:50:12:
OK, how about this? The improved Stonewall.
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 (hope you don't mind 3.c4) 3.e3 Bg4 followed by 4...e6; 5...f5; 6...Nf6; 7...0-0; 8...Nbd7; 9...Qe8 and 10...g5.
White can avoid it with 4.Be2 e6 5.Ne5 Bxe2 6.Qxe2 Nd7 7.f4 but Nxe5 8.fxe5 Qh4+ 9.g3 Qe4 10.0-0 f6 (Black will castle queenside) is still unbalanced.


This is a better idea than the normal Dutch.

Maybe I have to learn the Dutch ( Stonewall or Ilyin-Zhenevsky) because there is simply no way for White to deaden the struggle.

  

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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #18 - 03/06/08 at 08:33:21
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Nietzsche wrote on 03/05/08 at 20:01:53:
I used to teach the Colle to my students, but they had SO much trouble against the Grunfeld setup (and a quick ...c5/...Qc7) that I've now stopped.  I think the Colle is very good against ...e6/...d5 stuff but too complicated when black plays ...g6 and breaks via ...c5.

BTW, there is also Martin's recent DVD on Anti-Queen Pawn systems which covers the colle as well as the rev. stonewall, the torre, the tromp, etc.

Nietzsce

ps - depending on your level, you should check out Palliser's Starting Out: Colle


I haven't the Palliser book and my level is candidate master ( one step lower than master)
  

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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #17 - 03/06/08 at 08:29:43
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tracke wrote on 03/05/08 at 17:19:35:
Hi Templare2,

maybe we should know you´re usual repertoire against the Queen´s gambit !? It´s no good idea to prepare something new for one single game and there is no need to do that way. In fact, there are several good ways for Black to deal with the Colle and you can play any three or four natural moves as in your main weapon against d4 main lines.
Even 1d4 d5 2Nf3 Nf6 3e3 e6 is absolutely okay as long as Black continues actively (fighting for e5 square with c5/Nc6/Bd6/Qc7) instead of remaining passively and castling into the attack (Be7/0-0/c6/h6/Re8 and the likes). If an early e6 is your usual prefernce (QGD or Nimzo) you should´t hesitate to play it and learn the Colle main lines!
Of course psychologically Colle players are more afraid of Dutch, Slav, Grünfeld or King´s Indian setups, because they don´t get their usual patterns.

tracke  Smiley


I usually play the Tartakover System or the K.I. against 1. d4, against 1. Nf3 I play 1.., c5
  

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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #16 - 03/05/08 at 21:38:02
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tracke wrote on 03/05/08 at 17:19:35:
It´s no good idea to prepare something new for one single game.

tracke  Smiley

I have done that a few times myself, overall with good results. Of course it only works when you know your opponent. Eg I almost always lose to Ricardo dos Ramos (played at the Olympiade a few times for Suriname). So when he opened 1.Nf3 once and I really did not want to lose for the dozenth time - it was a team match - I chose the most boring setup I could think of (the New York Defence) and got a fairly easy draw.
  

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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #15 - 03/05/08 at 20:01:53
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I used to teach the Colle to my students, but they had SO much trouble against the Grunfeld setup (and a quick ...c5/...Qc7) that I've now stopped.  I think the Colle is very good against ...e6/...d5 stuff but too complicated when black plays ...g6 and breaks via ...c5.

BTW, there is also Martin's recent DVD on Anti-Queen Pawn systems which covers the colle as well as the rev. stonewall, the torre, the tromp, etc.

Nietzsce

ps - depending on your level, you should check out Palliser's Starting Out: Colle
  

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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #14 - 03/05/08 at 17:19:35
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Hi Templare2,

maybe we should know your usual repertoire against the Queen´s gambit !? It´s no good idea to prepare something new for one single game and there is no need to do that way. In fact, there are several good ways for Black to deal with the Colle and you can play any three or four natural moves as in your main weapon against d4 main lines.
Even 1d4 d5 2Nf3 Nf6 3e3 e6 is absolutely okay as long as Black continues actively (fighting for e5 square with c5/Nc6/Bd6/Qc7) instead of remaining passively and castling into the attack (Be7/0-0/c6/h6/Re8 and the likes). If an early e6 is your usual prefernce (QGD or Nimzo) you should not hesitate to play it and learn the Colle main lines!
Of course psychologically Colle players are more afraid of Dutch, Slav, Grünfeld or King´s Indian setups, because they don´t get their usual patterns.

tracke  Smiley
« Last Edit: 03/06/08 at 10:25:23 by tracke »  
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #13 - 03/05/08 at 15:09:57
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The answer against the Colle is very very easy! And there is in Bronznik book about the Colle!

The best black has is a Gruenfeld set-up d5-Bg7-c5-Nc6 and Qc7 followed by e5. A usual combination is ...e5 dxe5 Ng4! I can provide you with the specific move orders when i get to my notebook!
  
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #12 - 03/05/08 at 14:41:35
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There is 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 you know ... No Benoni, no NID, no QGD but safely within White's comfort zone.  Wink
  

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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #11 - 03/05/08 at 09:37:33
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If your opponent is a devout Colle enthusiast. Than play

1.d4 Nf6 Now if white plays e3 then 3.g6 followed by Bg7 and d6 is going to spoil his fun. One idea worth watching for is at the right moment playing Nfd7 followed by e5.

Of course white can switch to 2.Nf3 or 2.c4 then you can play 2..e6 and white has to be prepared for Nimzoindian Benoni or even a queens gambit. A colle addict will probably not be terrible pleased that he is out of his comfort zone.
  

I am hopelessly addicted to the King's Gambit
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #10 - 03/05/08 at 09:12:15
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Hello,

Opps in the line in "How to beat 1. d4" was thinking of 12h3 Bxp. With the other moves black looks active enough, in the IQP. Although must admit Re1, followed by Be3 does look solid for white.
              Other line have looked at 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 c6 (3...Bg4 same idea preparing e5, but 4.c4 another type QGA) 4. Bd3 Bg4 with Nd7 and e5 to follow.

Bye John S
  
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #9 - 03/04/08 at 22:50:12
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OK, how about this? The improved Stonewall.
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 (hope you don't mind 3.c4) 3.e3 Bg4 followed by 4...e6; 5...f5; 6...Nf6; 7...0-0; 8...Nbd7; 9...Qe8 and 10...g5.
White can avoid it with 4.Be2 e6 5.Ne5 Bxe2 6.Qxe2 Nd7 7.f4 but Nxe5 8.fxe5 Qh4+ 9.g3 Qe4 10.0-0 f6 (Black will castle queenside) is still unbalanced.
  

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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #8 - 03/04/08 at 22:32:03
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Not so desperate...  but You are almost convincing.

mmmhh... 1. d4 e6  2. Nf3 f5

On the other hand there is 1. d4 d5  2. Nf3 Nf6  3. e3 g6!? with the idea  4. Bd3 Bg7  5. c3 Nbd7  6. Nbd2 c5  7. 0-0 0-0  8. e4 dxe4   9. Nxe4 cxd4  10. Nxd4 Nxe4  11. Bxe4 Nf6 Colle- Monticelli San Remo 1930.

Or the interesting 8..,cxd4  9. e5 dxc3!?  10. exf6 Bxf6  11.bxc3 Bxc3  Black would have thrre pawns and a mobile ceneter for the piece ( Watson)

Both ideas ( Dutch or Colle/grunfeld) are interesting.
  

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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #7 - 03/04/08 at 21:31:53
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Templare2 wrote on 03/04/08 at 18:03:03:
MNb wrote on 03/03/08 at 22:43:24:
This might lead to the Baltic Variation 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Bf5 or even the Slow Slav (is this the right name?) 4.e3 Bf5.
If you about 100% sure you will meet the Colle you might gamble and try 1...f5 or 1...d6/1...e6 and 2...f5. The Colle is not particularly strong against the Dutch, while the latter is very asymmetrical.


This is an idea but I never play the Dutch and if my opponent smells a rat and play c4 the question is: what to do in my game?

That is the gamble indeed ... At the other hand, if he is a typical ultra solid queen's pawn openings wood shifter, he is highly unlikely to know how to handle the Dutch as well. I know from experience that lack of aggression against this opening very quickly leads to Black getting the initiative. Do you remember Nigel Davies' article on Old Geezers at chesscafe? 1/2...f5 is one solution.
So - how desperate are you?
  

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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #6 - 03/04/08 at 18:11:37
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MarinFan wrote on 03/04/08 at 08:13:10:
Hello,

Since have "How to beat 1. d4" book, why not use the line(s) recommended there? Have you looked at the line with sac on h2, in the pure colle lines with c3, and bd3?, would get quite good winning chances if managed to spring that.


The line  that  put me off is: 1. d4 d5  2. Nf3 Nf6  3. e3 e6  4. Bd3 c5  5. c3 Nc6  6. Nbd2 Bd6  7. 0-0 0-0  8. dxc5 Bxc5  9. e4 Qc7  10. exd5 exd5  11. Nb3 Bb6

Now White has some solid lines ( 12. Bc2  12. Re1  12. Nbd4  12. Qc2) that can be more appealing for a Colle specialist.
  

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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #5 - 03/04/08 at 18:03:03
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MNb wrote on 03/03/08 at 22:43:24:
This might lead to the Baltic Variation 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Bf5 or even the Slow Slav (is this the right name?) 4.e3 Bf5.
If you about 100% sure you will meet the Colle you might gamble and try 1...f5 or 1...d6/1...e6 and 2...f5. The Colle is not particularly strong against the Dutch, while the latter is very asymmetrical.


This is an idea but I never play the Dutch and if my opponent smells a rat and play c4 the question is: what to do in my game?
  

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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #4 - 03/04/08 at 08:13:10
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Hello,

Since have "How to beat 1. d4" book, why not use the line(s) recommended there? Have you looked at the line with sac on h2, in the pure colle lines with c3, and bd3?, would get quite good winning chances if managed to spring that. The line with bf5 can be almost too solid for winning chances. Particularly if white sticks to the usual with, c3 and Bd3 very flat lines can result.
                         Otherwise if opponent is a complete colle addict play a setup were it is completely toothless, like other posters have suggested. For example, the colle is  silly against the KID, where white is preparing a move, which black is happy to allow at anytime.

Bye John S
  
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MNb
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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #3 - 03/03/08 at 22:43:24
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This might lead to the Baltic Variation 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Bf5 or even the Slow Slav (is this the right name?) 4.e3 Bf5.
If you about 100% sure you will meet the Colle you might gamble and try 1...f5 or 1...d6/1...e6 and 2...f5. The Colle is not particularly strong against the Dutch, while the latter is very asymmetrical.
  

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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #2 - 03/03/08 at 10:03:04
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Thanks Bob. So not 1. d4 d5  2. Cf3 Cf6  3. e3 e6 but   3. e3 Bf5?
  

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Re: WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
Reply #1 - 03/03/08 at 03:26:58
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If you are a d5 player develop your light squared bishop. If you are an indian player a KID setup makes things antisymmetrical. The Colle only gives white good play when black plays both d5 and locks the bishop with e6.
  
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WINNING AGAINST THE COLLE SYSTEM
03/03/08 at 00:35:57
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Next week end,  i'll play with Black against a guy who usually plays the Colle System.

My goal is to obtain a position where I can play for a win.

What line can You suggest me? I have teh following books  "How to beat 1. d4" and "The Ultimate Colle"

Thanks

If you ave some material, You can email  at my adress  masterblaster5@hotmail.it
  

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