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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? (Read 23354 times)
NeverGiveUp
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #18 - 11/30/10 at 15:08:11
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Thanks everyone.

Martin - I had a (quick) look at Qb3 and it's quite an old line (Capablanca) where black is OK. after 9.Qb3 b5 10.Qd5 black has to play the amazing 10. ... Nd4!! and holds his own after 11.cd4 Ne7. Also 9. ... Rb8 should certainly be doable (equal) and transposes after 10.Re1 Be7. actually this is exactly what black is after - very compicated interesting lines with an about equal verdict.

agropop - your 5.0-0 is certainly much more critical. I'd say after 5. ... Bd7 white can go 6.d4! what is an improvement over 5.d4 since black has already played Bd7. Your 6.c4 is also an interesting idea. There has however been an article in NIC yearbook about 5. ... Bg4 stating that with Yandemirov's novelies black is OK.

Jon - thanks for bringing the book to my attention, about time someone starts writing about this amazing stuff! All kinds of stuff is being written about the RL including almost any sideline (see for instance Sokolov's excellent book) but unfortunately the Modern Steinitz keeps being left out!
  
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Jonathan Tait
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #17 - 11/30/10 at 14:39:33
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 11/29/10 at 15:08:04:
Yes what's wrong with the modern Steinitz!!

Must say I'm seriously considering putting it on my repertoire. What is holding me back somewhat is lack of recent good books about it


there's a book by Tim Taylor forthcoming Smiley
it should be out early next year
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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agropop
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #16 - 11/30/10 at 10:07:01
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I think modern Steiniz is quite well explained in Bronstein's clasic 200 open games. (of course not a great theoretical value these days, but very instructive)
Most principled (but also complicated) is 5.0-0. Of course Yandemirov's games are very important in this line. I think he has played v.s Smirnov (not sure, i'll try to check that and post the games tomorrow) at least 3 games with 2 draws and one defeat. Anyway it seems that black is suffering here.
Main point of 5.0-0 is that against 5...Bd7 white plays 6.c4! and white has an improved version of Duras variation. In Bronstein's view, black should counter this variation (5.c4) with 5...Bg4!, with the logical idea of playing ...Nf6-d7-c5-e6, since d4 is a nice square. Of course after 5...Bd7 black's bishop has been commited too early.
A model game i recall in this line with 5...Bd7 is Rodriguez Céspedes-Reyes Larenas, Novi Sad 1990. In fact black got a bad king's indian, as sometimes happens in the Ruy Lopez.
Since i haven't looked at the modern steiniz for quite a while i don't know if theory regards 6.d4 stronger than 6.c4.
« Last Edit: 12/01/10 at 08:45:15 by agropop »  
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MartinC
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #15 - 11/29/10 at 19:15:51
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Here you go. Quite possibly a problem somewhere as I'm not super strong and my comp merely OK Smiley

9 Qb3 .. b5 10 Qd5 ba 11 Qxc6+ Kf8 12 Nd4 ed 13 Qf3+ x d3 doesn't seem nice for black. Or even 11 Qxd3 really but thats a really cute piece of computer think Smiley

9.. Rb8 10 Qd5 e4 (Junior wants 10.. Bg6 to work but not convinced) 11 Bb3 Nh6 12 Ng5 Ne5 (BxN QxB etc) 13 Ne6 and then white can repeat/take g7 and eventually go Rxe4 with what certainly looks like a lot of comp.

Not that black is lost at the end of this but far from convinced if its any fun.
  
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NeverGiveUp
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #14 - 11/29/10 at 16:45:03
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just an aside - two funny anecdotes about the Modern Steintiz

1.The strong grandmaster Steiner has fallen for Noah's ark trap.
2.No one less than Alekhine (another great expert on the modern Steinitz) said that white could force a draw after 1.e4 e5 2.nf3 nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.d4?! b5 6.Bb3 Nd4: 7.Nd4: ed4: 8.Qd4:?? c5 9.Qd5 Be6 with 10.Qc6+, whereas it's an easy win for black after 10. ... Bd7 11.Qd5 c4 rather than Be6.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #13 - 11/29/10 at 16:22:07
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Topical because I was going to check my notes about that tonight Smiley

As I remember 9 Qb3 is certainly dangerous - a lot of the time it seemed to end up with white sacrificing an exchange on e4 for the P & B and getting a floating black K and light squared holes as comp. Didn't seem at all fun for black really.

In fact, if I remember right, even the rather cheeky looking 8 Qb3 is quite playable.

The danger for white is of course never getting round to developing his queenside.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #12 - 11/29/10 at 16:19:56
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Thanks for this Stigma.

9.Re3 is a very old and well known variation from Keres' days where black is OK after 9. ... e4! followed by ... Bg5 hitting the Re3.

9.Qb3 is double-edged but also quiet an old variation where black is OK. I would have to look up the precise variations of this.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #11 - 11/29/10 at 15:42:27
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In the Siesta variation, how about White's alternatives to 9.Bc2? I.e. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. c3 f5 6. exf5 Bxf5 7. O-O Bd3 8. Re1 Be7 and now 9. Qb3!? or 9. Re3!?. Engines seem to think both are worth analysing.

P.S. NeverGiveUp: You might want to correct your move numbers.
  

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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #10 - 11/29/10 at 15:23:52
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If you're studying the modern Steinitz you may want to check out the games of the young American GM Robert Hess; he plays it a lot.
  
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NeverGiveUp
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #9 - 11/29/10 at 15:08:04
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Yes what's wrong with the modern Steinitz!!

Must say I'm seriously considering putting it on my repertoire. What is holding me back somewhat is lack of recent good books about it, as well as the work (time) I have to put into it. The former reason is also it's advantage - it's very much out of fashion (white may not be familiar with it, or with the types of positions arising) while it's not bad at all. In fact some relatively recent developments have made it quite playable.

So what has white got after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6?

-He can go 4.Bc6: dc6: 5.d4, but then black should be quite OK with the double-edged 5. ...f6!? keeping the tension in the centre and the bishops pair.

-He can go 4.0-0 after which black has the very double-edged 4. ... Bg4!? 5.h3 h5 where black should be OK with Yandemirov's novely 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 Nd4: 8.hg4: Nb3:! 9.ab3: hg4: 10.Ng5 Qd7! followed by ...f6. Also the more tame 6.Bc6:+ bc6: 7.d4 Bf3: 8.Qf3: ed4: seems quite OK for black.

-And then the "Siesta variation" (Capablanca) has been revitalised: 4.c3 f5!? 5.ef5: Bf5: 6.0-0! (better than 6.d4 e4 with double-edged play and good chances for black) 6. ... Bd3 7.Re1 Be7 8.Bc2! Bc2: 9.Qc2: Nf6 10.d4 e4 11.Ng5 d5 12.f3 h6 13.Nh3 0-0 and black is basically OK.

-The famous Noah's ark trap goes 4.d4?! b5 5.Bb3 Nd4: 6.Nd4: ed4: 7.Qd4:?? (7.c3 is unclear) c5 8.Qd5 Be6 9.Qc6+ Bd7 10.Qd5 c4 and black wins. There are some other move 4 alternatives that are not dangerous for black, like 4.c4 (Maroczy) where black is OK after 4. ... Bg4.

All this lot then lead to very sharp positions where it's not easy at all for white to show any advantage.

So yes indeed - what's wrong with the modern Steinitz!!
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #8 - 04/10/08 at 02:37:07
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Good on yer! -- look forward to hearing your thoughts sometime! I confess I haven't looked at the line M'dov played against Leko, which is a bit silly/illogical, but I'm sure I will in due course. Meanwhile my Cozio thread seems so far to have proven a lead balloon! Maybe I should give up my habitual attempts to rescue purportedly suboptimal defences! -- but then, if Radjabov had thought that ... (Plus it's fun!)
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #7 - 04/10/08 at 01:13:46
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Unfortunately I haven't gotten around to examining your suggestions in any detail yet, but rest assured I haven't forgotten this thread and will post my thoughts in due course.

Hopefully in the meantime somebody good will risk the line against Leko, but it seems like at the top only Mamedyarov has faith in this defence.

Regards,

Toppy Smiley

  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #6 - 04/10/08 at 00:05:45
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Should I take it that you take my points here then, Toppy? -- (1) is OK, (2) isn't, (3) is but could be tedious to keep repeating?  Wink
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #5 - 03/26/08 at 22:01:05
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Excellent post, TopNotch! – thanks. A great example of it being concrete moves, and not opinions, which push the debate on! As is obvious, I had completely underestimated/ignored the deferred Bxc6 ideas. I’d love to ‘rescue’ the Steinitz from the Tal-based assaults on it, but it ain’t easy! Here are my thoughts so far.

(1) After 5 …Nge7, are the 6 c3 Bd7 lines really so bad for Black after 12 …Nf6 or 12 …c5? Whatever the case here, 6 d4!? looks potentially very dangerous! But 6 …ed 7 Nd4 (7 c3 d3 might be OK?) Bd7!? (I think Black is suffering after 7 …b5 8 Nc6) might be worth investigating? (Just a thought -- I haven’t really looked at this yet.)

(2) In the 5 …Nf6 6 Bc6 bc 7 d4 line, I guess Black has to try 7 …ed (I had “7 …Be7!?, Malaniuk” in my notes, but unfortunately the manoeuvre Na3-c4 looks just to refute this) 8 Qd4 c5 9 Qd3 Be7 10 Re1 0-0 11 Nc3 Bb7, but although these moves can be played in various orders I think White retains an annoying edge.

(3) 5…Bd7 6 d4 Nf6 looks to me the soundest bet. Tal--Knaak but with 11 …0-0 might not be too bad, but I notice that 10 …0-0 has been tried in a few games. Now after 11 Nc6 obviously White has better pawns, but his position has lost a lot of its dynamic potential and it’s no wonder Tal has preferred 11 Nf5. But Black can regroup with …Nd7 and …Bf6 (and similarly after Bf4 or b3/Bb2) -- can White prove a real advantage after that?
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #4 - 03/23/08 at 13:49:52
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Quote:
Ruy Lopez - Deferred Steinitz [C73]
Analysis, 13.01.2008
[Toppy]

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 Nf6 6.Bxc6+!? bxc6 7.d4! intending Nxe4?! 8.Qe2!

Also good is 8.Re1 f5 9.dxe5 d5 10.Nc3! (10.Nd4 Qh4!) 10...Bc5 11.Be3 Bxe3 12.Rxe3 0-0 13.Nd4 Qe8 14.f3± Boleslavsky-Smyslov/Moscow/1941

8...f5 9.Nbd2 Nxd2 10.Nxd2 e4 11.f3 d5 12.fxe4 fxe4 13.Qh5+!

13.Nxe4! Müller 13...dxe4 14.Qxe4+ Be7 15.Bg5+-

13...g6 14.Qe5+ Qe7 15.Qxh8+-


Filling some space I'd like to give some variations after the possible 10...Qe7 (preferred by my chess engine) to show some potential of the position - especially if Black acts greedy:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

11.dxe5 Qxe5 (11...de5?!) 12.Qd1 Kf7 13.Re1 Qf6 14.Nf3 Kg8 15.Bg5 Qxb2 16.Qd3 d5
(16...Bd7 17.Reb1+-)
(16....Qb5 17.c4 Qa4 18.Re8 h6 (18...Kf7 19.Rxc8) 19.Nh4+-)
(16...Qb6 17.Re8 h6 18.Rae1 (18.Be7?! Kf7 19.Rxc8 Bxe7 20.Qxf5+ Bf6 21.Qd7+ =) 18. ... hxg5 19.Qe2 Kh7 20.Rxc8 Rxc8 21.Qe6 g6 22.Nxg5+ Kh6 23.Nf7+ Kh7 24.Nxh8 Kxh8 25.Qxc8+-)
17.a4
(17.Reb1?! Qa3 18.Rb3 Qd6)
17...Rb8 18.c3 Qb7 19.Rab1 Qa8 20.Rxb8 Qxb8 21.Re8+ +-
  
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