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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? (Read 35257 times)
kylemeister
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #76 - 08/30/23 at 00:00:09
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By the way, Vlastimil Jansa's Dynamics of Chess Strategy (mentioned in this thread quite some years ago) had a sub-chapter of about 20 pages ("Steinitz's delicacies") about some of this stuff.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #75 - 08/29/23 at 21:40:39
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Quite a while ago now I made (as a Word file) the doc shown below. I haven't looked at it since and I'm not sure how it will copy here, but here it is in case it's of any use (probably not much, as it seems to cover only positions with c2-c3 in; still, even here the alternatives and the transpos are rather boggling). Parenthetical numbers in the text refer to the Notes below.

*****


Modern Steinitz Move Orders


I  With 5/6/7 …Nf6 (i.e. Black has played …Nf6 by move 7, delaying …Bg7)

(a)  with 5 …Nf6

5 0-0 Nf6(1) 6 c3 Bd7 7 d4(2) g6 → 8 Re1(3) b5(4) 9 Bb3 Bg7


(b)  with 6 …Nf6(5)

5 0-0 Bd7 6 c3 Nf6(6) 7 d4 g6 → 8 Re1 b5 9 Bb3 Bg7

5 0-0 Bd7 6 d4 Nf6(7) 7 c3(8) g6 [Parma–Keres] → ditto.

5 c3 Bd7 6 d4 Nf6 7 0-0(9) g6 → ditto.


(c)  with 7 …Nf6

5 0-0 Bd7 6 c3 g6 7 d4 Nf6 → 8 Re1 b5 9 Bb3 Bg7



II  With 9 …Nf6 (i.e. Black completes his fianchetto on move 7, delaying development of his KN)

5 0-0 Bd7 6 c3 g6 7 d4 Bg7(10) → 8 Re1(11) b5(12) 9 Bb3(13) Nf6

5 c3 Bd7 6 0-0 g6 7 d4 Bg7 → ditto.

5 c3 Bd7 6 d4 g6(14) 7 0-0 Bg7 → ditto.



Notes

  1. 5 ..g6?! 6 d4! (Taylor 22).
  2. Fogarasi–Davies featured a rare, irrelevant transposition of White’s 7th and 8th moves.
  3. Alternatives, in this position with …Nf6 in rather than …Bg7, are: (1) 8 d5; (2) 8 Bg5 b5! 9 Bb3 Bg7 [T 75]; (3) 8 Bc6; and (4) 8 Nbd2.
  4. There is of course nothing wrong with the immediate 8 …Bg7 here, transposing to 8 …Nf6 in note 12.
  5. All mentioned by Taylor at p. 74.
  6. T (11, 41, 54–6, 58–9, 64) says 6 …Nge7 (the Rubinstein Variation) is interesting here with White having castled, but inferior after 5 c3 Bd7 6 d4 because of 7 Be3! (7 …Ng6 8 h4!).
  7. Here Kuljasevic at Modern Chess (Ch. 2) gives instead (though without suggesting Black needs to avoid the next note) 6 …ed 7 Nd4 b5 8 Nc6 Bc6 9 Bb3 Nf6, when Leko–Mamedyarov continued 10 Nc3 Be7 11 Re1 0-0.
  8. Or: (1) 7 Bc6 Bc6 8 Re1 Be7 9 Nc3 ed! 10 Nd4 Bd7 (Stellwagen–Tomashevsky) (T game 71, pp. 221–3); (2) 7 de Ne5! (T 8, 223).
  9. 7 Qe2 Be7! (T 93).
  10. T (23, 75) says 7 …Bg7 here (iso 7 …Nf6) is inferior because of 8 Bg5, but he doesn’t even mention 8 …f6 as given by Kuljasevic (Ch. 8), considered OK for Black.
  11. Alternatives, in this position with …Bg7 in rather than …Nf6, are: (1) 8 d5; (2) 8 Bg5; (3) 8 Be3; (4) 8 de; and (5) 8 h3.
  12. Of course, Black can also play 8 …Nge7 and 8 …Nf6 here, the latter being Kuljasevic’s recommendation (Ch. 10).
  13. See T 76, 81, 82. For 9 Bc2 here see T 76.
  14. T (87, 93) says 6 …g6 here (iso 6 …Nf6) is inferior because of 7 Bg5, but Kuljasevic (Ch. 8) gives 7 …f6 8 Be3 Nh6 9 0-0(!) Bg7, transposing to 8 Bg5 f6 in note 10.


  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #74 - 08/28/23 at 14:51:20
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There are SDD main lines and several sidelines. Here's a sideline that has not been mentioned to my knowledge.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O!? Bd7 6. d4 Nd4 7. Bd7 Qd7 8.Nd4 ed4 9. Qd4 Nf6. I think the resulting position is between += and = and is playable by both sides.

If White wants to avoid main lines, then this is optimal play by both sides, in my opinion.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #73 - 08/27/23 at 12:41:36
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kylemeister wrote on 08/26/23 at 18:50:12:
Hmm, so he likes 4...Nf6 5. 0-0 d6 6. Bxc6+ bc6 7. Re1 Be7 8. d4 ed4 9. Nxd4 Bd7


Thanks emary and Kylemeister for the additional resources. After move 9, Kuljasevic writes:

"Black is not thrilled about having to play Bd7. As we will see in 6.d4
exd4 7.Nxd4 variation, he would much rather play c6-c5 and Bb7 to
quickly obtain counterplay in the center. Yet, we will see that even in
this apparently passive position black has sufficient resources for
counterplay."
  
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kylemeister
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #72 - 08/26/23 at 18:50:12
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emary wrote on 08/26/23 at 17:28:42:
Nethertheless Wahls thinks there is a way to a slight White advantage
(but not more than that).

Hmm, so he likes 4...Nf6 5. 0-0 d6 6. Bxc6+ bc6 7. Re1 Be7 8. d4 ed4 9. Nxd4 Bd7 10. c4.

An old Informant/ECO bit:  10...0-0 11. Nc3 Re8 12. h3 c5 13. Nf3 Be6 14. b3 Nd7 15. Bf4 (Onischuk-Malaniuk, Russia 2001) Bf6! 16. Qd3 Bxc3 17. Qxc3 f6 +/= Onischuk.

By the way, RIP GM Aleksandar Matanović.

Edited to add:  A survey by Tibor Karolyi in Yearbook 94 (2010) didn't mention 10. c4 (just 10. Nc3 and 10. e5). Included in the survey:  a photo of Portisch.
« Last Edit: 08/26/23 at 21:30:04 by kylemeister »  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #71 - 08/26/23 at 17:28:42
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GM Matthias Wahls has done a free video about the "Steinitz Deferred"
at his youtube-channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEbfd2AtRqgANVBvpEo85kw
(Have a look at the second row of the video-list.)

Wahls tries to prove a  White advantage against
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 with an early ...d6. ,
He investigates a few plausible White tries for an advantage.
Wahls concludes that in most cases a well prepared Black player can get interesting equality. 
Nethertheless Wahls thinks there is a way to a slight White advantage
(but not more than that).

If someone studies the course of Gawain Jones
then a crossreading with Wahls' video could be interesting early on.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #70 - 08/25/23 at 19:30:04
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> Incidentally the first alternative reminded me of (yes, an old game) Karpov-Spassky 1986.
Dear Kylemeister,
we'd be worrying more if you started reminding future games like a precog. Since you spotted me quoting 'IM Rohde', you can gather I'm a boomer too. We have interesting topics on the table: 4...d6 vs 4...Nf6 in the "d6 intending g6" deferred Steinitz, 5...a6 vs 5...Qc7 in the Taimanov Sicilian... Hoping to contribute (in time) and/or learn from these topics.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #69 - 08/25/23 at 18:40:01
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FreeRepublic wrote on 08/25/23 at 17:26:33:
Black can play 8...Nf6, but he also has alternatives in 8...Nge7 or 8...b5. If someone prefers one of the alternatives, then they might prefer the 4...d6 move order.

Incidentally the first alternative reminded me of (yes, an old game) Karpov-Spassky 1986. I notice that Demchenko (who has figured prominently in Chess Publishing coverage of some ...Nge7 stuff) has followed in Spassky's footsteps with 9. Be3 O-O 10. Nbd2 Qe8 11. Bb3 b6. In a 1986 book, Raymond Keene and David Goodman described that as "a curious move that seems to serve no apparent purpose." (I recall thinking maybe it could serve to prevent Bc5 after an exchange on e5.)
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #68 - 08/25/23 at 17:26:33
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Just a little postcript. After something like 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O Bd7 6. c3 g6 7. d4 Bg7 8. Re1,

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Black can play 8...Nf6, but he also has alternatives in 8...Nge7 or 8...b5. If someone prefers one of the alternatives, then they might prefer the 4...d6 move order.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #67 - 08/25/23 at 15:50:51
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Michael Ayton wrote on 08/24/23 at 13:02:44:
Seems to me that choice between 4 ...d6 and 4 ...Nf6 is basically a matter of taste/individual choice. I don't see one way as stronger than the other if the aim is to play ...d6/Bd7 + ...g6 lines.


That is my conclusion as well.

After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O d6 6. d4, Michael states "Black can, should he wish, avoid the 6 ...b5 7 de ending with 6 ...Bd7 (i.e. transpose into 4 ...d6 5 0-0 Bd7 6 d4 Nf6!)."

The ending after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O d6 6. d4 b5!? 7. de5 de5 8.Qd8 Nd8 9. Bb3 is perfectly good for Black. However, you might not want an ending.

Instead after 6...Bd7 we get to a position covered by Tim Taylor (from 4...d6) in three games (Tal-Ivkov, Stellwagen-Tomashevsky, and Hermlin-Keres) with analysis of additional 7th moves.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Taylor covers several moves for white, but not 7d5. I like 7d5 because White will later be able to play c4 in one move. After 7d5, Black can consider ...Nb8 in addition to ...Ne7.

AOC mentions 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. c3 Bd7 6. d4 g6 7. Bg5!?. Kuljasevic continues with 7...f6 8Be3 Nh6 with interesting play.

AOC also mentions 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. c3 Bd7 6. d4 Nf6 7. Qe2. Now 7... Be7 8. O-O O-O is an option. It should be noted that such natural moves as 9Rd1 or 9Nbd7 can be answered by 9...Nxd4! with advantage to Black. 7...b5 can also be tried. As AOC notes, Black may not be able to play ...g6. Interesting play seems to be the constant result.
« Last Edit: 08/25/23 at 17:28:50 by FreeRepublic »  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #66 - 08/25/23 at 07:42:47
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Some dead-quick thoughts 'cos just off on hol. for a few days ...

@ AOC:

Quote:
7...g6 is more interesting, but hardly played, there may be a concrete reason.

If there is, it looks like we can probably say it can't be 8 0-0, as there 8 ...Qe7 then ...Bg7 has been played with good results by strong Black players, while Adams for one has played the immediate 8 ...Bg7.

Quote:
This also calls into question whether black can get the ...Nf6 ...d6 ...g6 setup via 4...d6, for example 4...d6 5.c3 Bd7 6.d4 now if 6...Nf6 7.Qe2, while if 6...g6 7.Bg5!?.

On 6 ...g6 7 Bg5, Papaioannou gives 7 ...Be7 ('!'), while also mentioning (without analysis) 7 ...f6 ('!?').


@ kylemeister:

Thanks for that 8 ...Ne7 thought, which triggered a very dim memory ... I wonder if it (still) holds up ...


  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #65 - 08/25/23 at 05:27:33
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Michael Ayton wrote on 08/24/23 at 13:02:44:
After 4 ...Nf6 White could try 5 Qe2 or 5 0-0 d6 6 Re1, but neither prevents the ...Bd7/...g6 setup.

Is that the case? After 4...Nf6 5.Qe2 black is usually advised to play more actively with ...Bc5, or else ...Be7 and later ...d7-d5 in one go. 5...d6 6.c3 Bd7 looks very passive, 7.d4 Be7 8.Nbd2 black already has to take evasive measures, and white scores almost 100% in the database. 7...g6 is more interesting, but hardly played, there may be a concrete reason. This also calls into question whether black can get the ...Nf6 ...d6 ...g6 setup via 4...d6, for example 4...d6 5.c3 Bd7 6.d4 now if 6...Nf6 7.Qe2, while if 6...g6 7.Bg5!?.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #64 - 08/24/23 at 23:38:07
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In Horowitz's old book 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O d6 was called the Rubinstein (!?) System. I dimly remember white was supposed to play 6.c3 Nxe4!? 7.d4 and black is under pressure. Of course black can play 6...Bd7 transposing back to the Modern Steinitz.

7...g6 instead of 7...Be7 was considered risky because of the e-file:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.O-O Nf6 6.c3 Bd7 7.d4 g6 8.Nbd2 Bg7 (8...Qe7 is another move. 8...b5 9.Bc2 is just a typical Spanish Torture.) 9.Bxc6 Bxc6 10.dxe5 dxe5 11.Nxe5 Bxe4 12.Nxe4 (12.Re1 is preferred by the engine. It's quite optimistic at first because it sees white can win a pawn. Then it settles down.) 12...Qxd1 13.Nxf6+ Bxf6 14.Rxd1 Bxe5 15.Bh6 Alekhine - Michell, Hastings 1933/34
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1012956

Since then some big names have drawn this position as black. Old assessments are bound to be overturned by later analysis. ...Nf6, ...d6, ...g6 is a sound and natural setup. It wouldn't surprise me at all if it turns out quite okay with engine assistance, despite the frowns of older theory.

As for 4...d6 vs 4...Nf6 5.O-O d6, I would prefer the first one because I don't see any scary sidelines there. The second one allows 4...Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.O-O (annoying) and 4...Nf6 5.Qe2 (fighting on the opponent's ground). Other sidelines like 4...Nf6 5.Bxc6 and 4...Nf6 5.Nc3 don't bother me at all.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #63 - 08/24/23 at 22:30:02
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Michael Ayton wrote on 08/24/23 at 13:02:44:
(Kuljasevic also mentions the riskier 7 ...c5!? 8 Qd3 g6)

Another old book move is 8...Ne7. Back in the '70s it was given as "!" by Larsen (annotating Hartston-Olafsson, a near-miniature won by the Icelandic lawyer) and played a couple of times by Keres.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #62 - 08/24/23 at 13:02:44
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Seems to me that choice between 4 ...d6 and 4 ...Nf6 is basically a matter of taste/individual choice. I don't see one way as stronger than the other if the aim is to play ...d6/Bd7 + ...g6 lines. Perhaps it comes down to what signals you want to give to your opponent and what specific lines you're happy to allow/have ruled out.

4 ...Nf6 5 0-0 d6 6 Bc6 bc 7 d4 ed 8 Qd4 Be7 9 Nc3 0-0 is just a transposition to 4 ...d6 5 Bc6 bc 6 d4 ed 7 Qd4 Nf6 (Kuljasevic also mentions the riskier 7 ...c5!? 8 Qd3 g6) 8 Nc3 Be7 9 0-0 0-0. After 4 ...Nf6 White could try 5 Qe2 or 5 0-0 d6 6 Re1, but neither prevents the ...Bd7/...g6 setup. And also after 5 0-0 d6 6 d4, Black can, should he wish, avoid the 6 ...b5 7 de ending with 6 ...Bd7 (i.e. transpose into 4 ...d6 5 0-0 Bd7 6 d4 Nf6!), as played by the heroic Pragg!
  
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