ChessPub Forum - The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?

MartinC God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 2115 Joined: 07/24/06	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #26 - 01/26/11 at 14:38:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	Whatever you'd do against 5 o-o ^ 6 c3 & 7 d4 I assume. Probably only a big problem if thats meant to be the Bg4 and h5 stuff? I have to say that playing into that line as white feels a tiny bit kind to black to me, but then I'm somewhat offended by people playing f5 against the Lopez In the end you're playing a very classical defence (and white playing very sensibly) so fully sound fun is always likely to be a little limited.


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NeverGiveUp Full Member Offline Never despair in a lost position Posts: 221 Joined: 11/18/09	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #25 - 01/26/11 at 10:49:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	I have now played the line above in a 4NCL game which went 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.c3 f5 6.ef5 Bf5 7.0-0 Bd3 8.Re1 e4 9.Nd4 Qd7 10.Nc6: bc6: 11.Bc2 Be7 12.Bd3: ed3: 13.Qh5+ g6 14.Qf3 Nh6 15.h3 Nf5 (Nf7!?) 16.Qd3: 0-0 with a very complex position where I'm confident black has sufficient compensation for the pawn. Unfortunately I now believe the 8. ... e4?! variation is unsound because of 9.Bc2! Kd7 10.Bd3: ed3: 11.Qb3! Qf6 12.Qb7: Ra7 13.Qb3 followed by Qa4! and Nd4 and black is lost due to the pin on the Nc6. 9. ... Be7 10.Bd3: ed3: 11.Qb3! is also pretty nasty for black because he can't complete his development. Black therefore has to go 8.Be7(!) 9.Bc2 Bc2: 10.Qc2: Nf6 11.d4 e4 12.Ng5 d5 13.f3 h6 14.Nh3 0-0 15.Nd2 ef3: 16.Nf3: Rf7. There has been a NIC survey about this line where it is concluded black is OK although white may be slightly better. They also conclude (rightly) that the fun has gone out of playing the siesta since if you have to go into a boring position where white is slightly better that's definitely not what black has in mind! If black can hold his own it' still doable though... but I wonder ... what to do against 5.c3 if you play the Modern Steinitz?


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NeverGiveUp Full Member Offline Never despair in a lost position Posts: 221 Joined: 11/18/09	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #24 - 12/07/10 at 11:14:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	Line C should read: C] 9.Nd4!? Qd7 10.Nc6: bc6: 11.Bc2 Be7 12.Bd3: ed3: 13.Qh5+ g6 14.Qf3 d5 (Nh6!?) 15.Qd3: Nf6 16.Qc2 (16.Qe3 0-0! 17.Qe7:?? Rae8) 0-0 with compensation.


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NeverGiveUp Full Member Offline Never despair in a lost position Posts: 221 Joined: 11/18/09	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #23 - 12/07/10 at 10:42:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	I have been analysing some amazing variations for black in the Siesta that seem very doable. Really fun stuff. After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.c3 f5!? 6.ef5: Bf5: 7.0-0 Bd3 8.Re1 e4!? (instead of Be7). Now white can go: A] 9.Bc2 Kd7!? 10.Bd3: ed3: 11.Nd4 Qh4, or 11.Qb3!? Qf6 12.Qb7: Ra7(!) 13.Qb3 Nge7 14.Qc4 g5 15.Qd3: Bg7 with good compensation for the 2 pawns - white has lost 5 moves pawn grabbing! B] 9.Qb3?! given by ECO as the refutation but really not very good - 9. ... b5! 10.c4 (ECO stops here saying white is winning) 10. ... Nge7! 11.cb5: ab5: 12.Bb5: Bb5: 13.Qb5: Ra5 14.Qc4 d5 15.Qc3 Qd6 and black is doing very well. Alternatively 10.Qe6+ Nge7 11.Bb3 d5 12.Ng5 Qd6 - same verdict. C] 9.Nd4!? Qd7 10.Nc6: bc6: 11.Bc2 Be7 12.Bd3: ed3: 13.Qh5+ g6 14.Qf3 d5 (Nh6!?) 15.Qd3: 0-0 with compensation. D] 9.Re3 Be7! transposes to a main line where black is OK (10.Ne1 Bg5! Maroczy/Keres) I'm starting to love this line! I saw on NICbase that e4 has been played quite a lot of times, and is quite a respectable variation. Any reactions are most welcome.


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NeverGiveUp Full Member Offline Never despair in a lost position Posts: 221 Joined: 11/18/09	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #22 - 12/01/10 at 10:10:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	Re agropop: There has been a Smirnov-Yandemirov game in 2008 which you didn't mention where the great Y improved upon the earlier game and went 19. ...Qh1+ 20.Ke2 Qg2: 21.Nc7:+ Kf7 22.Nd5+ Kg6 23.Nf6: Qf3+ 24.Kd3 gf6:; the game ended in a draw.


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NeverGiveUp Full Member Offline Never despair in a lost position Posts: 221 Joined: 11/18/09	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #21 - 12/01/10 at 09:26:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks Martin. I'll have a more detailed look later but looking at the diagram I'd say Kc8 is the preferred option over Ke8. Then in teh diagram position -with the king on c8 that is- black can play Nh6-f7 followed by ... d5 attacking Queen and knight and blocking out white's bishop. Black seems to be doing reasonably OK then, although materially white isn't doing too bad. Maybe black should try to use his lead in development (white's queenside is totally undeveloped) to grab the initiative and maybe launch an attack, if feasible.


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agropop Junior Member Offline Use your brain Posts: 51 Location: Madrid Joined: 04/13/10 Gender:	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #20 - 12/01/10 at 09:25:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	NeverGiveUp wrote on 11/30/10 at 15:08:11: There has however been an article in NIC yearbook about 5. ... Bg4 stating that with Yandemirov's novelies black is OK. Maybe this article is a bit dated now. These games of Yandemirov as black were played after the NIC article you mention: [Event "20th European Club Clup"] [Site "Izmir TUR"] [Date "2004.10.07"] [EventDate "2004.10.03"] [Round "5"] [Result "1/2-1/2"] [White "Pavel Smirnov"] [Black "Valeri Yandemirov"] [ECO "C72"] [WhiteElo "2626"] [BlackElo "2488"] [PlyCount "193"] 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O Bg4 6. h3 h5 7. d4 b5 8. Bb3 Nxd4 9. hxg4 Nxb3 10. axb3 hxg4 11. Ng5 Qd7 12. c4 Rb8 13. Rxa6 f6 14. Nc3 fxg5 15. Nxb5 Nf6 16. Ra7 Rc8 17. Re1 Qf7 18. Be3 Qh5 19. Kf1 Kd7 20. b4?! Qh1+ 21. Ke2 Qxg2 22. Qa4 Kd8 23. Nxc7 Rxc7 24. Qa5 Ne8 25. Kd2 Kd7 26. Qb5+ Ke7 27. Rxc7+ Nxc7 28. Qb7 Kd7 29. Bb6 Be7 30. Qxc7+ Ke6 31. Qb7 g3 32. Re2 Rh2 33. Qc8+ Kf7 34. Qg4 Qg1 35. Qxg3 Qb1 36. Kc3 Rh1 37. Qd3 Rc1+ 38. Rc2 Rd1 39. Rd2 Rc1+ 40. Kb3 Qa1 41. c5 dxc5 42. bxc5 Kg6 43. Rc2 Rd1 44. Qf3 Rd4 45. Rc4 Rd2 46. Qc3 Rxf2 47. c6 Rf6 48. c7 Rxb6+ 49. Kc2 Rd6 50. Qf3 Rb6 51. Qf5+ Kh6 52. Qxe5 Bf6 53. c8=Q Rxb2+ 54. Qxb2 Qxb2+ 55. Kd1 Qb3+ 56. Kd2 g4 57. Qe6 Qf3 58. e5 Qf2+ 59. Kd3 Qf3+ 60. Kd4 Qd1+ 61. Kc5 Qe2 62. Kd6 Kg5 63. exf6 Qxe6+ 64. Kxe6 gxf6 65. Kd5 g3 66. Ke4 g2 67. Rc8 f5+ 68. Kf3 g1=N+ 69. Ke3 Nh3 70. Rc6 Nf4 71. Kd4 Ng6 72. Rc1 Kf6 73. Ke3 Kg5 74. Kd4 Kf6 75. Kd5 Nf4+ 76. Kd6 Ng6 77. Re1 Nf4 78. Re8 Ng6 79. Ra8 Kf7 80. Kd5 Kf6 81. Ra6+ Kg5 82. Ke6 Nf4+ 83. Kf7 Nd5 84. Rg6+ Kh4 85. Rh6+ Kg5 86. Rh1 Ne3 87. Ke6 f4 88. Rg1+ Ng4 89. Rf1 Ne3 90. Rf2 Ng4 91. Rf1 Ne3 92. Rg1+ Ng4 93. Rf1 Ne3 94. Rg1+ Ng4 95. Kd5 Kf5 96. Kd4 f3 97. Rf1 1/2-1/2 Both players continued the discussion. Smirnov Improved at move 20: [Event "European Club Cup"] [Site "Feugen AUT"] [Date "2006.10.11"] [EventDate "2006.10.08"] [Round "4"] [Result "1-0"] [White "Pavel Smirnov"] [Black "Valeri Yandemirov"] [ECO "C72"] [WhiteElo "2623"] [BlackElo "2528"] [PlyCount "112"] 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O Bg4 6. h3 h5 7. d4 b5 8. Bb3 Nxd4 9. hxg4 Nxb3 10. axb3 hxg4 11. Ng5 Qd7 12. c4 Rb8 13. Rxa6 f6 14. Nc3 fxg5 15. Nxb5 Nf6 16. Ra7 Rc8 17. Re1 Qf7 18. Be3 Qh5 19. Kf1 Kd7 20. Qa1 Qh1+ 21. Ke2 Qxg2 22. Nxc7 Rxc7 23. Qa4+ Kd8 24. Qa5 Ne8 25. Kd2 Kd7 26. Qb5+ Ke7 27. Rxc7+ Nxc7 28. Qb7 Kd7 29. Bb6 Be7 30. Qxc7+ Ke6 31. Ra1 Qxe4 32. Ra7 Re8 33. Qd7+ Kf7 34. Qxd6 g3 35. fxg3 Qg2+ 36. Kc1 Qxg3 37. Bc5 Qf4+ 38. Kc2 Qf5+ 39. Kc3 Qf3+ 40. Kb4 Qf6 41. Qd5+ Kg6 42. Qe4+ Kh5 43. Rxe7 Rxe7 44. Bxe7 Qxe7+ 45. c5 g4 46. Kb5 g3 47. c6 Qd6 48. Qh7+ Kg4 49. Qxg7+ Kf3 50. Qf7+ Ke3 51. c7 Qd3+ 52. Qc4 Qd7+ 53. Kb6 Qc8 54. Qa6 Qe6+ 55. Ka7 Qd7 56. Qb6+ Ke4 1-0 I supose an improvement over this is needed to play this line as black Sorry for no PGN attachment, i'm at work now.


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MartinC

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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #19 - 11/30/10 at 15:34:38

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Nd4 seems a fun idea. But I was following the move order from Stigma's post with 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. c3 f5 6. exf5 Bxf5 7. O-O Bd3 8. Re1 Be7 9 Qb3 etc.

Makes Ne7 rather tricky Wink

I guess that was about 8 Qb3. Fair enough then perhaps.

I just can't see the attraction in the other line, although perhaps its not so bad.

Position after 9 Qb3 Rb8 10 Qd5 e4 11 Bb3 Nh6 12 Ng5 Ne5 13 Ne6 Qd7 (iirc c8 perhaps required for some odd reason?) 14 Nxg7+ Kd8 15 Ne6+ Ke8 (or c8) 16 Rxe4 c6 17 Qd4 BxR 18 QxB

Obviously a few minor (or not!) options getting here, but its pretty representative and seemingly non trivial to avoid, unless there's something before white gets Ne6 in?

Of course its scarcely like blacks forced to go f5

« Last Edit: 11/30/10 at 16:44:37 by MartinC »

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NeverGiveUp Full Member Offline Never despair in a lost position Posts: 221 Joined: 11/18/09	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #18 - 11/30/10 at 15:08:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks everyone. Martin - I had a (quick) look at Qb3 and it's quite an old line (Capablanca) where black is OK. after 9.Qb3 b5 10.Qd5 black has to play the amazing 10. ... Nd4!! and holds his own after 11.cd4 Ne7. Also 9. ... Rb8 should certainly be doable (equal) and transposes after 10.Re1 Be7. actually this is exactly what black is after - very compicated interesting lines with an about equal verdict. agropop - your 5.0-0 is certainly much more critical. I'd say after 5. ... Bd7 white can go 6.d4! what is an improvement over 5.d4 since black has already played Bd7. Your 6.c4 is also an interesting idea. There has however been an article in NIC yearbook about 5. ... Bg4 stating that with Yandemirov's novelies black is OK. Jon - thanks for bringing the book to my attention, about time someone starts writing about this amazing stuff! All kinds of stuff is being written about the RL including almost any sideline (see for instance Sokolov's excellent book) but unfortunately the Modern Steinitz keeps being left out!


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Jonathan Tait God Member Offline Posts: 617 Location: Nottingham Joined: 07/11/06	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #17 - 11/30/10 at 14:39:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	NeverGiveUp wrote on 11/29/10 at 15:08:04: Yes what's wrong with the modern Steinitz!! Must say I'm seriously considering putting it on my repertoire. What is holding me back somewhat is lack of recent good books about it there's a book by Tim Taylor forthcoming it should be out early next year

	blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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agropop Junior Member Offline Use your brain Posts: 51 Location: Madrid Joined: 04/13/10 Gender:	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #16 - 11/30/10 at 10:07:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think modern Steiniz is quite well explained in Bronstein's clasic 200 open games. (of course not a great theoretical value these days, but very instructive) Most principled (but also complicated) is 5.0-0. Of course Yandemirov's games are very important in this line. I think he has played v.s Smirnov (not sure, i'll try to check that and post the games tomorrow) at least 3 games with 2 draws and one defeat. Anyway it seems that black is suffering here. Main point of 5.0-0 is that against 5...Bd7 white plays 6.c4! and white has an improved version of Duras variation. In Bronstein's view, black should counter this variation (5.c4) with 5...Bg4!, with the logical idea of playing ...Nf6-d7-c5-e6, since d4 is a nice square. Of course after 5...Bd7 black's bishop has been commited too early. A model game i recall in this line with 5...Bd7 is Rodriguez Céspedes-Reyes Larenas, Novi Sad 1990. In fact black got a bad king's indian, as sometimes happens in the Ruy Lopez. Since i haven't looked at the modern steiniz for quite a while i don't know if theory regards 6.d4 stronger than 6.c4.
	« Last Edit: 12/01/10 at 08:45:15 by agropop »

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MartinC God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 2115 Joined: 07/24/06	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #15 - 11/29/10 at 19:15:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Here you go. Quite possibly a problem somewhere as I'm not super strong and my comp merely OK 9 Qb3 .. b5 10 Qd5 ba 11 Qxc6+ Kf8 12 Nd4 ed 13 Qf3+ x d3 doesn't seem nice for black. Or even 11 Qxd3 really but thats a really cute piece of computer think 9.. Rb8 10 Qd5 e4 (Junior wants 10.. Bg6 to work but not convinced) 11 Bb3 Nh6 12 Ng5 Ne5 (BxN QxB etc) 13 Ne6 and then white can repeat/take g7 and eventually go Rxe4 with what certainly looks like a lot of comp. Not that black is lost at the end of this but far from convinced if its any fun.


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NeverGiveUp Full Member Offline Never despair in a lost position Posts: 221 Joined: 11/18/09	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #14 - 11/29/10 at 16:45:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	just an aside - two funny anecdotes about the Modern Steintiz 1.The strong grandmaster Steiner has fallen for Noah's ark trap. 2.No one less than Alekhine (another great expert on the modern Steinitz) said that white could force a draw after 1.e4 e5 2.nf3 nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.d4?! b5 6.Bb3 Nd4: 7.Nd4: ed4: 8.Qd4:?? c5 9.Qd5 Be6 with 10.Qc6+, whereas it's an easy win for black after 10. ... Bd7 11.Qd5 c4 rather than Be6.


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MartinC God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 2115 Joined: 07/24/06	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #13 - 11/29/10 at 16:22:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	Topical because I was going to check my notes about that tonight As I remember 9 Qb3 is certainly dangerous - a lot of the time it seemed to end up with white sacrificing an exchange on e4 for the P & B and getting a floating black K and light squared holes as comp. Didn't seem at all fun for black really. In fact, if I remember right, even the rather cheeky looking 8 Qb3 is quite playable. The danger for white is of course never getting round to developing his queenside.


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NeverGiveUp Full Member Offline Never despair in a lost position Posts: 221 Joined: 11/18/09	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #12 - 11/29/10 at 16:19:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks for this Stigma. 9.Re3 is a very old and well known variation from Keres' days where black is OK after 9. ... e4! followed by ... Bg5 hitting the Re3. 9.Qb3 is double-edged but also quiet an old variation where black is OK. I would have to look up the precise variations of this.


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