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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? (Read 34688 times)
kylemeister
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #31 - 01/31/11 at 18:10:59
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Ametanoitos wrote on 01/31/11 at 18:09:17:
Didn't Jansa in his "Dynamic Chess Strategy" book examined this variation in some detail?


Yes.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #30 - 01/31/11 at 18:09:17
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Didn't Jansa in his "Dynamic Chess Strategy" book examined this variation in some detail? I had this wonderfull book but it was stolen from me along with my laptop.... Angry
  
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NeverGiveUp
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #29 - 01/31/11 at 16:43:56
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So is this the final verdict then -
and the answer to the original question The Modern Steinitz - what's wrong with it? Tongue

The usual view has long been that there are a few ways for White to get a slight advantage in this old variation.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #28 - 01/27/11 at 15:44:25
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 01/27/11 at 09:14:35:
Especially in the Rubinstein it's not easy at all for white to obtain any advantage.


It seems to me that the usual view has long been that there are a few ways for White to get a slight advantage there.
  
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NeverGiveUp
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #27 - 01/27/11 at 09:14:35
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Thanks Martin.

Against 5.0-0 I play 5. ... Bg4!? 6.h3 h5 a variation that is very old but has been seriously re-vitalised by Yandemirov. There has been a NIC survey on it and with the current state of affairs, theoretically black seems fine here.

I don't think 5.0-0 Bd7 is good, since white goes 6.d4! what is a seriously improved version of the 5.d4 variation. I would say black is in trouble here and white is scoring very well accordingly.

Of course after 5.c3 black can go 5. ... Bd7 6.d4 and now either 6. ... Nge7 (Rubinstein) or 6. ... g6 (Bronstein). Both of these are very respectable variations that have been around for a long time. Especially in the Rubinstein it's not easy at all for white to obtain any advantage.

And the Siesta is definitely doable - but only if black is willing to go for 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.c3 f5 6.ef5: Bf5: 7.0-0 Bd3 8.Re1 Be7(!) 9.Bc2(!) Bc2: 10.Qc2: Nf6 11.d4 e4 12.Ng5 d5 13.f3 h6 14.Nh3 0-0 15.Nd2 ef3: 16.Nf3: Rf7.
  
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MartinC
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #26 - 01/26/11 at 14:38:47
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Whatever you'd do against 5 o-o ^ 6 c3 & 7 d4 I assume. Probably only a big problem if thats meant to be the Bg4 and h5 stuff?

I have to say that playing into that line as white feels a tiny bit kind to black to me, but then I'm somewhat offended by people playing f5 against the Lopez Smiley

In the end you're playing a very classical defence (and white playing very sensibly) so fully sound fun is always likely to be a little limited.
  
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NeverGiveUp
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #25 - 01/26/11 at 10:49:40
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I have now played the line above in a 4NCL game which went 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.c3 f5 6.ef5 Bf5 7.0-0 Bd3 8.Re1 e4 9.Nd4 Qd7 10.Nc6: bc6: 11.Bc2 Be7 12.Bd3: ed3: 13.Qh5+ g6 14.Qf3 Nh6 15.h3 Nf5 (Nf7!?) 16.Qd3: 0-0 with a very complex position where I'm confident black has sufficient compensation for the pawn.

Unfortunately I now believe the 8. ... e4?! variation is unsound because of 9.Bc2! Kd7 10.Bd3: ed3: 11.Qb3! Qf6 12.Qb7: Ra7 13.Qb3 followed by Qa4! and Nd4 and black is lost due to the pin on the Nc6. 9. ... Be7 10.Bd3: ed3: 11.Qb3! is also pretty nasty for black because he can't complete his development.

Black therefore has to go 8.Be7(!) 9.Bc2 Bc2: 10.Qc2: Nf6 11.d4 e4 12.Ng5 d5 13.f3 h6 14.Nh3 0-0 15.Nd2 ef3: 16.Nf3: Rf7.
There has been a NIC survey about this line where it is concluded black is OK although white may be slightly better.

They also conclude (rightly) that the fun has gone out of playing the siesta since if you have to go into a boring position where white is slightly better that's definitely not what black has in mind! 

If black can hold his own it' still doable though... but I wonder ... what to do against 5.c3 if you play the Modern Steinitz?  Shocked
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #24 - 12/07/10 at 11:14:46
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Line C should read:
C] 9.Nd4!? Qd7 10.Nc6: bc6: 11.Bc2 Be7 12.Bd3: ed3: 13.Qh5+ g6 14.Qf3 d5 (Nh6!?) 15.Qd3: Nf6 16.Qc2 (16.Qe3 0-0! 17.Qe7:?? Rae8) 0-0 with compensation.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #23 - 12/07/10 at 10:42:44
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I have been analysing some amazing variations for black in the Siesta that seem very doable. Really fun stuff.

After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.c3 f5!? 6.ef5: Bf5: 7.0-0 Bd3 8.Re1 e4!? (instead of Be7). Now white can go:

A] 9.Bc2 Kd7!? 10.Bd3: ed3: 11.Nd4 Qh4, or 11.Qb3!? Qf6 12.Qb7: Ra7(!) 13.Qb3 Nge7 14.Qc4 g5 15.Qd3: Bg7 with good compensation for the 2 pawns - white has lost 5 moves pawn grabbing! 

B] 9.Qb3?! given by ECO as the refutation but really not very good - 9. ... b5! 10.c4 (ECO stops here saying white is winning) 10. ... Nge7! 11.cb5: ab5: 12.Bb5: Bb5: 13.Qb5: Ra5 14.Qc4 d5 15.Qc3 Qd6 and black is doing very well. Alternatively 10.Qe6+ Nge7 11.Bb3 d5 12.Ng5 Qd6 - same verdict.

C] 9.Nd4!? Qd7 10.Nc6: bc6: 11.Bc2 Be7 12.Bd3: ed3: 13.Qh5+ g6 14.Qf3 d5 (Nh6!?) 15.Qd3: 0-0 with compensation.

D] 9.Re3 Be7! transposes to a main line where black is OK (10.Ne1 Bg5! Maroczy/Keres)

I'm starting to love this line!   

I saw on NICbase that e4 has been played quite a lot of times, and is quite a respectable variation.

Any reactions are most welcome.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #22 - 12/01/10 at 10:10:06
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Re agropop:

There has been a Smirnov-Yandemirov game in 2008 which you didn't mention where the great Y improved upon the earlier game and went 19. ...Qh1+ 20.Ke2 Qg2: 21.Nc7:+ Kf7 22.Nd5+ Kg6 23.Nf6: Qf3+ 24.Kd3 gf6:; the game ended in a draw.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #21 - 12/01/10 at 09:26:28
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Thanks Martin.

I'll have a more detailed look later but looking at the diagram I'd say Kc8 is the preferred option over Ke8. Then in teh diagram position -with the king on c8 that is- black can play Nh6-f7 followed by ... d5 attacking Queen and knight and blocking out white's bishop. Black seems to be doing reasonably OK then, although materially white isn't doing too bad. Maybe black should try to use his lead in development (white's queenside is totally undeveloped) to grab the initiative and maybe launch an attack, if feasible.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #20 - 12/01/10 at 09:25:19
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 11/30/10 at 15:08:11:
There has however been an article in NIC yearbook about 5. ... Bg4 stating that with Yandemirov's novelies black is OK.



Maybe this article is a bit dated now. These games of Yandemirov as black were played after the NIC article you mention:
[Event "20th European Club Clup"]
[Site "Izmir TUR"]
[Date "2004.10.07"]
[EventDate "2004.10.03"]
[Round "5"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[White "Pavel Smirnov"]
[Black "Valeri Yandemirov"]
[ECO "C72"]
[WhiteElo "2626"]
[BlackElo "2488"]
[PlyCount "193"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O Bg4 6. h3 h5
7. d4 b5 8. Bb3 Nxd4 9. hxg4 Nxb3 10. axb3 hxg4 11. Ng5 Qd7
12. c4 Rb8 13. Rxa6 f6 14. Nc3 fxg5 15. Nxb5 Nf6 16. Ra7 Rc8
17. Re1 Qf7 18. Be3 Qh5 19. Kf1 Kd7 20. b4?! Qh1+ 21. Ke2 Qxg2
22. Qa4 Kd8 23. Nxc7 Rxc7 24. Qa5 Ne8 25. Kd2 Kd7 26. Qb5+ Ke7
27. Rxc7+ Nxc7 28. Qb7 Kd7 29. Bb6 Be7 30. Qxc7+ Ke6 31. Qb7
g3 32. Re2 Rh2 33. Qc8+ Kf7 34. Qg4 Qg1 35. Qxg3 Qb1 36. Kc3
Rh1 37. Qd3 Rc1+ 38. Rc2 Rd1 39. Rd2 Rc1+ 40. Kb3 Qa1 41. c5
dxc5 42. bxc5 Kg6 43. Rc2 Rd1 44. Qf3 Rd4 45. Rc4 Rd2 46. Qc3
Rxf2 47. c6 Rf6 48. c7 Rxb6+ 49. Kc2 Rd6 50. Qf3 Rb6 51. Qf5+
Kh6 52. Qxe5 Bf6 53. c8=Q Rxb2+ 54. Qxb2 Qxb2+ 55. Kd1 Qb3+
56. Kd2 g4 57. Qe6 Qf3 58. e5 Qf2+ 59. Kd3 Qf3+ 60. Kd4 Qd1+
61. Kc5 Qe2 62. Kd6 Kg5 63. exf6 Qxe6+ 64. Kxe6 gxf6 65. Kd5
g3 66. Ke4 g2 67. Rc8 f5+ 68. Kf3 g1=N+ 69. Ke3 Nh3 70. Rc6
Nf4 71. Kd4 Ng6 72. Rc1 Kf6 73. Ke3 Kg5 74. Kd4 Kf6 75. Kd5
Nf4+ 76. Kd6 Ng6 77. Re1 Nf4 78. Re8 Ng6 79. Ra8 Kf7 80. Kd5
Kf6 81. Ra6+ Kg5 82. Ke6 Nf4+ 83. Kf7 Nd5 84. Rg6+ Kh4
85. Rh6+ Kg5 86. Rh1 Ne3 87. Ke6 f4 88. Rg1+ Ng4 89. Rf1 Ne3
90. Rf2 Ng4 91. Rf1 Ne3 92. Rg1+ Ng4 93. Rf1 Ne3 94. Rg1+ Ng4
95. Kd5 Kf5 96. Kd4 f3 97. Rf1 1/2-1/2

Both players continued the discussion. Smirnov Improved at move 20:
[Event "European Club Cup"]
[Site "Feugen AUT"]
[Date "2006.10.11"]
[EventDate "2006.10.08"]
[Round "4"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Pavel Smirnov"]
[Black "Valeri Yandemirov"]
[ECO "C72"]
[WhiteElo "2623"]
[BlackElo "2528"]
[PlyCount "112"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O Bg4 6. h3 h5
7. d4 b5 8. Bb3 Nxd4 9. hxg4 Nxb3 10. axb3 hxg4 11. Ng5 Qd7
12. c4 Rb8 13. Rxa6 f6 14. Nc3 fxg5 15. Nxb5 Nf6 16. Ra7 Rc8
17. Re1 Qf7 18. Be3 Qh5 19. Kf1 Kd7 20. Qa1 Qh1+ 21. Ke2 Qxg2
22. Nxc7 Rxc7 23. Qa4+ Kd8 24. Qa5 Ne8 25. Kd2 Kd7 26. Qb5+
Ke7 27. Rxc7+ Nxc7 28. Qb7 Kd7 29. Bb6 Be7 30. Qxc7+ Ke6
31. Ra1 Qxe4 32. Ra7 Re8 33. Qd7+ Kf7 34. Qxd6 g3 35. fxg3
Qg2+ 36. Kc1 Qxg3 37. Bc5 Qf4+ 38. Kc2 Qf5+ 39. Kc3 Qf3+
40. Kb4 Qf6 41. Qd5+ Kg6 42. Qe4+ Kh5 43. Rxe7 Rxe7 44. Bxe7
Qxe7+ 45. c5 g4 46. Kb5 g3 47. c6 Qd6 48. Qh7+ Kg4 49. Qxg7+
Kf3 50. Qf7+ Ke3 51. c7 Qd3+ 52. Qc4 Qd7+ 53. Kb6 Qc8 54. Qa6
Qe6+ 55. Ka7 Qd7 56. Qb6+ Ke4 1-0

I supose an improvement over this is needed to play this line as black

Sorry for no PGN attachment, i'm at work now.
  
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MartinC
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #19 - 11/30/10 at 15:34:38
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Nd4 seems a fun idea. But I was following the move order from Stigma's post with 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. c3 f5 6. exf5 Bxf5 7. O-O Bd3 8. Re1 Be7 9 Qb3 etc.

Makes Ne7 rather tricky Wink I guess that was about 8 Qb3. Fair enough then perhaps.

I just can't see the attraction in the other line, although perhaps its not so bad.

Position after 9 Qb3 Rb8 10 Qd5 e4 11 Bb3 Nh6 12 Ng5 Ne5 13 Ne6 Qd7 (iirc c8 perhaps required for some odd reason?) 14 Nxg7+ Kd8 15 Ne6+ Ke8 (or c8) 16 Rxe4 c6 17 Qd4 BxR 18 QxB

Obviously a few minor (or not!) options getting here, but its pretty representative and seemingly non trivial to avoid, unless there's something before white gets Ne6 in?

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Of course its scarcely like blacks forced to go f5 Smiley
« Last Edit: 11/30/10 at 16:44:37 by MartinC »  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #18 - 11/30/10 at 15:08:11
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Thanks everyone.

Martin - I had a (quick) look at Qb3 and it's quite an old line (Capablanca) where black is OK. after 9.Qb3 b5 10.Qd5 black has to play the amazing 10. ... Nd4!! and holds his own after 11.cd4 Ne7. Also 9. ... Rb8 should certainly be doable (equal) and transposes after 10.Re1 Be7. actually this is exactly what black is after - very compicated interesting lines with an about equal verdict.

agropop - your 5.0-0 is certainly much more critical. I'd say after 5. ... Bd7 white can go 6.d4! what is an improvement over 5.d4 since black has already played Bd7. Your 6.c4 is also an interesting idea. There has however been an article in NIC yearbook about 5. ... Bg4 stating that with Yandemirov's novelies black is OK.

Jon - thanks for bringing the book to my attention, about time someone starts writing about this amazing stuff! All kinds of stuff is being written about the RL including almost any sideline (see for instance Sokolov's excellent book) but unfortunately the Modern Steinitz keeps being left out!
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #17 - 11/30/10 at 14:39:33
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 11/29/10 at 15:08:04:
Yes what's wrong with the modern Steinitz!!

Must say I'm seriously considering putting it on my repertoire. What is holding me back somewhat is lack of recent good books about it


there's a book by Tim Taylor forthcoming Smiley
it should be out early next year
  
blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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