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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? (Read 62675 times)
FreeRepublic
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #56 - 08/22/23 at 20:55:55
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Kerangali wrote on 08/22/23 at 11:42:33:
is there a benefit with playing 4...Nf6 first?

Thanks for pointing out that course. I was not aware of it. As to your question, one advantage of playing 4...Nf6 instead of 4...d6 is to avoid the line:  1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. Bc6 bc6 6d4. This can be answered by 6...exd or 6...f6. With preparation, I think Black can welcome this line.

It seems that Jones' course tries to provide a ...g6 response whenever possible in the double-king pawn opening. It's an interesting idea and I wonder how well he can pull it off!

I prefer PGN or CBV files, but I have delved into the Chessable world. I often play through the moves in Chess Opening Wizard. It's a bit tedious. On the other hand, Chessable expects the user to play through moves anyway.
« Last Edit: 08/22/23 at 22:18:59 by FreeRepublic »  
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Kerangali
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #55 - 08/22/23 at 11:42:33
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Hi,
There's an 1.e4 e5 (for Black) Chessable course by Gawain Jones with many ...g6 lines, such as the Deferred Steinitz with ...g6. However, instead of playing 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6, he first plays 4...Nf6 and then ...d6. Assuming one wants to play the ...g6 lines of the Deferred/Modern Steinitz, is there a benefit with playing 4...Nf6 first? (like avoiding the semi-forced draw after d4/c3, or optimal g6 lines).
« Last Edit: 08/22/23 at 13:07:14 by Kerangali »  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #54 - 07/21/23 at 19:02:08
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I realize that I was a little terse in my prior comment, so I will now expand now. My reasoning was that
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. c3 f5!? 6. exf5 Bf5
and
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O Bg4 6. h3 h5!?
make a good match. They lead to disruptive chess, denying White a simple advantage. 

Other approaches by Black, for example a king side fianchetto, can be attempted against either 5c3 or 5O-O, so why not do so against both moves?

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O Bg4 6. h3 h5!? Here7.d4 is the main move, but it is very complicated. White might try for something simpler with 7. Bc6 bc6 8. d4 (...Qf6) Bf3 9. Qf3 ed4.

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Now White can consider 10e5, 10Re1, 10c3 and 10Rd1. Black is a pawn up for the moment but lags in development. His queen side pawns may become vulnerable. He might get something going on the king side with g5-4.

There are several resources available:  analysis at ChessPublishing and elsewhere, games played, and computer evaluations. The computer gives White the advantage for the moment. I analyzed one line with the computer and at some point it recalibrated and gave Black equality. To paraphrase a song by Billy Joel, it never is wrong, it just changes its mind. For now at least, I'll go with human evaluations!
« Last Edit: 07/22/23 at 13:59:38 by FreeRepublic »  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #53 - 07/20/23 at 13:27:41
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It would be nice to make
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O! Bg4 6. h3 h5 7. Bc6!? bc6 8. d4! work out for Black.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #52 - 07/20/23 at 12:55:36
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So an ancient main line move gets "!!" ... ah, marketing.
  
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cathexis
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #51 - 07/20/23 at 12:46:22
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FWIW,

So, if you mean this one it's here:
https://thechessworld.com/store/product/club-players-repertoire-for-black-with-1...

However, to get to the vids will cost you the coin.  Smiley
If you meant the 1970 game I could not find it in my CB megabase.

Hope this helps!
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #50 - 07/20/23 at 12:45:11
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Kerangali wrote on 07/20/23 at 09:06:13:
Where did you see this information, if I may ask? the course looks interesting (apart from weird launch price) but I can't go past chapter titles

There's a mention of freezing White's queenside with ...Bd3, which I figured must be a reference to the Siesta (with 7. 0-0).
  
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Kerangali
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #49 - 07/20/23 at 09:06:13
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kylemeister wrote on 07/03/23 at 23:55:08:
So apparently Szabo goes with the Siesta.

Where did you see this information, if I may ask? the course looks interesting (apart from weird launch price) but I can't go past chapter titles
  
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Kerangali
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #48 - 07/18/23 at 06:46:24
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This screenshot apparently showing Black's ...Qg4-g3 must be an extreme case of threat stronger than execution Smiley
« Last Edit: 07/18/23 at 14:10:43 by Kerangali »  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #47 - 07/03/23 at 23:55:08
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So apparently Szabo goes with the Siesta.

Incidentally a game with it by the more famous Szabo (Damjanovic-Szabo, Buenos Aires 1970) appeared in Informator and ECO (with an apparently erroneous evaluation of clearly better for Black after 15 moves).
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #46 - 07/03/23 at 22:31:03
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I just happened upon another source. (Sale ends soon).

Club Player's Repertoire for Black with 1...e5 by GM Krisztian Szabo (10 hours and 22 mins Running Time) 

https://www.modern-chess.com/club-players-repertoire-for-black-with-1-e5-by-gm-k...

Chapter 1. Kings Gambit 3.Bc4
Chapter 2. Kings Gambit 3.Nf3 Nf6
Chapter 3. Vienna Game (Part I)
Chapter 4. Vienna Game (Part II)
Chapter 5. Vienna Game (Part III)
Chapter 6. Centre Game
Chapter 7. Goering Gambit
Chapter 8. Ponziani Opening
Chapter 9. Four Knights 4.g3
Chapter 10. Four Knights 4.d4
Chapter 11. Four Knights 4.Bb5
Chapter 12. Scotch Gambit
Chapter 13. Scotch Game Secondary Lines
Chapter 14. Scotch Game Main Line
Chapter 15. Italian Game 4.Ng5
Chapter 16. Italian Game 4.d3
Chapter 17. Ruy Lopez Exchange 5.Nc3
Chapter 18. Ruy Lopez Exchange 5.0-0
Chapter 19. Ruy Lopez Deferred Steinitz (Part I)
Chapter 20. Ruy Lopez Deferred Steinitz (Part II)
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #45 - 07/03/23 at 20:03:03
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kylemeister wrote on 07/01/23 at 16:25:05:
A bit of theory from last century:  10.Nc3 Be7 11.b3 O-O 12.Bb2 Rae8 13.Rae1 Bd8 14.f4 c6 15.Rd1 Bc7 16.e5 Qd8 17.Na4 dxe5 18.fxe5 Qxd4+ 19.Bxd4 Nd7 20.Nc5 Re7 (De Firmian-Timman, Amsterdam 1996) 21. Nxb7 Bxe5 22. Bxe5 Nxe5 23. Nc5 += Timman.
12...c6, preventing 13Nd5, has also been played. White retains more space but Black may be OK.

kylemeister wrote on 07/01/23 at 16:25:05:
I half-recalled a recent game Svidler-J. van Foreest, in which after 6...b5 7. Bb3 Nxd4 8. Nxd4 exd4 9. c3 dxc3 10. Qh5 g6 11. Qd5 Be6 12. Qc6+ Bd7 13. Qd5 Be6 14. Qc6+ Bd7 15. Qxc3 Nf6 16. e5 dxe5 17. Qxe5+ Qe7 18. Qc3 apparently 18...b4 was a novelty
Yes, I can see that 18...b4!? helps Black's game.

Kerangali wrote on 07/03/23 at 17:10:07:
The Papaioannou link is here

I noticed the coverage of the ...Na5 lines but completly missed the fact that he analyzed the deferred Steinitz.

Kerangali wrote on 07/02/23 at 18:43:37:
Lajos Portisch, My Secrets in the Ruy Lopez.
He experiments with several move orders. Perhaps he was trying to confuse his opponents. It worked on me.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 is a mandatory move order for playing the Siesta.

If one intends to play the fianchetto line with ...Nf6, then 4...Nf6 is also possible:  1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O d6 6. c3 g6 7. d4 Bd7 8. Re1 Bg7
White can refuse to go along with the plan and play 8.Bc6 Bc6 9. de5 Ne4 10. Nbd2 (ChessPublishing, Tim Taylor), but Black seems to be all right, especially with 10...Nc5
  
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Kerangali
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #44 - 07/03/23 at 17:10:07
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The Papaioannou link is here (preview at the bottom): 
https://www.modern-chess.com/1-e4-e5-for-black-repertoire-against-the-ruy-lopez-...
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #43 - 07/03/23 at 16:23:38
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Quote:
What I found from Roiz at Modern-chess was the Breyer and White sidelines.

Sorry, my mistake -- that'll teach me to post before breakfast! I meant Kuljasevic, and I've corrected my earlier post.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #42 - 07/03/23 at 16:11:52
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Michael Ayton wrote on 07/03/23 at 07:37:00:
(Roiz's MC repertoire database in particular has lots of interesting material), there's also a three-part NIC survey by McShane.


I found the NIC Surveys:  NIC YBK 119, 126, and 128. What I found from Roiz at Modern-chess was the Breyer and White sidelines.

The ChessPublishing archives have a lot of material.
  
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