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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? (Read 62684 times)
emary
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #71 - 08/26/23 at 17:28:42
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GM Matthias Wahls has done a free video about the "Steinitz Deferred" 
at his youtube-channel: 
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEbfd2AtRqgANVBvpEo85kw ;
(Have a look at the second row of the video-list.)

Wahls tries to prove a  White advantage against 
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 with an early ...d6. ,
He investigates a few plausible White tries for an advantage. 
Wahls concludes that in most cases a well prepared Black player can get interesting equality.   
Nethertheless Wahls thinks there is a way to a slight White advantage 
(but not more than that). 

If someone studies the course of Gawain Jones 
then a crossreading with Wahls' video could be interesting early on.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #70 - 08/25/23 at 19:30:04
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> Incidentally the first alternative reminded me of (yes, an old game) Karpov-Spassky 1986.
Dear Kylemeister,
we'd be worrying more if you started reminding future games like a precog. Since you spotted me quoting 'IM Rohde', you can gather I'm a boomer too. We have interesting topics on the table: 4...d6 vs 4...Nf6 in the "d6 intending g6" deferred Steinitz, 5...a6 vs 5...Qc7 in the Taimanov Sicilian... Hoping to contribute (in time) and/or learn from these topics.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #69 - 08/25/23 at 18:40:01
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FreeRepublic wrote on 08/25/23 at 17:26:33:
Black can play 8...Nf6, but he also has alternatives in 8...Nge7 or 8...b5. If someone prefers one of the alternatives, then they might prefer the 4...d6 move order.

Incidentally the first alternative reminded me of (yes, an old game) Karpov-Spassky 1986. I notice that Demchenko (who has figured prominently in Chess Publishing coverage of some ...Nge7 stuff) has followed in Spassky's footsteps with 9. Be3 O-O 10. Nbd2 Qe8 11. Bb3 b6. In a 1986 book, Raymond Keene and David Goodman described that as "a curious move that seems to serve no apparent purpose." (I recall thinking maybe it could serve to prevent Bc5 after an exchange on e5.)
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #68 - 08/25/23 at 17:26:33
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Just a little postcript. After something like 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O Bd7 6. c3 g6 7. d4 Bg7 8. Re1, 

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Black can play 8...Nf6, but he also has alternatives in 8...Nge7 or 8...b5. If someone prefers one of the alternatives, then they might prefer the 4...d6 move order.
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #67 - 08/25/23 at 15:50:51
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Michael Ayton wrote on 08/24/23 at 13:02:44:
Seems to me that choice between 4 ...d6 and 4 ...Nf6 is basically a matter of taste/individual choice. I don't see one way as stronger than the other if the aim is to play ...d6/Bd7 + ...g6 lines.


That is my conclusion as well.

After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O d6 6. d4, Michael states "Black can, should he wish, avoid the 6 ...b5 7 de ending with 6 ...Bd7 (i.e. transpose into 4 ...d6 5 0-0 Bd7 6 d4 Nf6!)." 

The ending after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O d6 6. d4 b5!? 7. de5 de5 8.Qd8 Nd8 9. Bb3 is perfectly good for Black. However, you might not want an ending.

Instead after 6...Bd7 we get to a position covered by Tim Taylor (from 4...d6) in three games (Tal-Ivkov, Stellwagen-Tomashevsky, and Hermlin-Keres) with analysis of additional 7th moves.

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Taylor covers several moves for white, but not 7d5. I like 7d5 because White will later be able to play c4 in one move. After 7d5, Black can consider ...Nb8 in addition to ...Ne7.

AOC mentions 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. c3 Bd7 6. d4 g6 7. Bg5!?. Kuljasevic continues with 7...f6 8Be3 Nh6 with interesting play.

AOC also mentions 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. c3 Bd7 6. d4 Nf6 7. Qe2. Now 7... Be7 8. O-O O-O is an option. It should be noted that such natural moves as 9Rd1 or 9Nbd7 can be answered by 9...Nxd4! with advantage to Black. 7...b5 can also be tried. As AOC notes, Black may not be able to play ...g6. Interesting play seems to be the constant result.
« Last Edit: 08/25/23 at 17:28:50 by FreeRepublic »  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #66 - 08/25/23 at 07:42:47
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Some dead-quick thoughts 'cos just off on hol. for a few days ...

@ AOC:

Quote:
7...g6 is more interesting, but hardly played, there may be a concrete reason.

If there is, it looks like we can probably say it can't be 8 0-0, as there 8 ...Qe7 then ...Bg7 has been played with good results by strong Black players, while Adams for one has played the immediate 8 ...Bg7.

Quote:
This also calls into question whether black can get the ...Nf6 ...d6 ...g6 setup via 4...d6, for example 4...d6 5.c3 Bd7 6.d4 now if 6...Nf6 7.Qe2, while if 6...g6 7.Bg5!?.

On 6 ...g6 7 Bg5, Papaioannou gives 7 ...Be7 ('!'), while also mentioning (without analysis) 7 ...f6 ('!?').


@ kylemeister:

Thanks for that 8 ...Ne7 thought, which triggered a very dim memory ... I wonder if it (still) holds up ...


  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #65 - 08/25/23 at 05:27:33
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Michael Ayton wrote on 08/24/23 at 13:02:44:
After 4 ...Nf6 White could try 5 Qe2 or 5 0-0 d6 6 Re1, but neither prevents the ...Bd7/...g6 setup.

Is that the case? After 4...Nf6 5.Qe2 black is usually advised to play more actively with ...Bc5, or else ...Be7 and later ...d7-d5 in one go. 5...d6 6.c3 Bd7 looks very passive, 7.d4 Be7 8.Nbd2 black already has to take evasive measures, and white scores almost 100% in the database. 7...g6 is more interesting, but hardly played, there may be a concrete reason. This also calls into question whether black can get the ...Nf6 ...d6 ...g6 setup via 4...d6, for example 4...d6 5.c3 Bd7 6.d4 now if 6...Nf6 7.Qe2, while if 6...g6 7.Bg5!?.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #64 - 08/24/23 at 23:38:07
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In Horowitz's old book 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O d6 was called the Rubinstein (!?) System. I dimly remember white was supposed to play 6.c3 Nxe4!? 7.d4 and black is under pressure. Of course black can play 6...Bd7 transposing back to the Modern Steinitz.

7...g6 instead of 7...Be7 was considered risky because of the e-file: 

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.O-O Nf6 6.c3 Bd7 7.d4 g6 8.Nbd2 Bg7 (8...Qe7 is another move. 8...b5 9.Bc2 is just a typical Spanish Torture.) 9.Bxc6 Bxc6 10.dxe5 dxe5 11.Nxe5 Bxe4 12.Nxe4 (12.Re1 is preferred by the engine. It's quite optimistic at first because it sees white can win a pawn. Then it settles down.) 12...Qxd1 13.Nxf6+ Bxf6 14.Rxd1 Bxe5 15.Bh6 Alekhine - Michell, Hastings 1933/34 
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1012956

Since then some big names have drawn this position as black. Old assessments are bound to be overturned by later analysis. ...Nf6, ...d6, ...g6 is a sound and natural setup. It wouldn't surprise me at all if it turns out quite okay with engine assistance, despite the frowns of older theory.

As for 4...d6 vs 4...Nf6 5.O-O d6, I would prefer the first one because I don't see any scary sidelines there. The second one allows 4...Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.O-O (annoying) and 4...Nf6 5.Qe2 (fighting on the opponent's ground). Other sidelines like 4...Nf6 5.Bxc6 and 4...Nf6 5.Nc3 don't bother me at all.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #63 - 08/24/23 at 22:30:02
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Michael Ayton wrote on 08/24/23 at 13:02:44:
(Kuljasevic also mentions the riskier 7 ...c5!? 8 Qd3 g6)

Another old book move is 8...Ne7. Back in the '70s it was given as "!" by Larsen (annotating Hartston-Olafsson, a near-miniature won by the Icelandic lawyer) and played a couple of times by Keres.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #62 - 08/24/23 at 13:02:44
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Seems to me that choice between 4 ...d6 and 4 ...Nf6 is basically a matter of taste/individual choice. I don't see one way as stronger than the other if the aim is to play ...d6/Bd7 + ...g6 lines. Perhaps it comes down to what signals you want to give to your opponent and what specific lines you're happy to allow/have ruled out.

4 ...Nf6 5 0-0 d6 6 Bc6 bc 7 d4 ed 8 Qd4 Be7 9 Nc3 0-0 is just a transposition to 4 ...d6 5 Bc6 bc 6 d4 ed 7 Qd4 Nf6 (Kuljasevic also mentions the riskier 7 ...c5!? 8 Qd3 g6) 8 Nc3 Be7 9 0-0 0-0. After 4 ...Nf6 White could try 5 Qe2 or 5 0-0 d6 6 Re1, but neither prevents the ...Bd7/...g6 setup. And also after 5 0-0 d6 6 d4, Black can, should he wish, avoid the 6 ...b5 7 de ending with 6 ...Bd7 (i.e. transpose into 4 ...d6 5 0-0 Bd7 6 d4 Nf6!), as played by the heroic Pragg!
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #61 - 08/24/23 at 07:52:12
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Can't say if it's a problem, but playing 4...Nf6 rules out the Siesta Variation (with c3 f5) as well as the Portisch setup with d6, Bd7 first and then Nge7, Ng6, Be7, h6, Bg5. However, these lines are irrelevant if Black wants to play d6+g6 lines, That's why I wondered if 4...Nf6 is more accurate than 4...d6 when Black intends to play a ...g6 Deferred Steinitz?
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #60 - 08/23/23 at 22:13:40
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Kerangali wrote on 08/22/23 at 11:42:33:
is there a benefit with playing 4...Nf6 first?


Turning the question around, is there a problem with playing 4...Nf6 first? Sometimes a simple columnar display works best for me. ECO C(4), C79 rows 7 and 8 claim a slight advantage to White. However, after: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O d6 6. Bc6 bc6 7. d4 ed4 8. Qd4 Be7 9. Nc3 O-O

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Stockfish 16 computes the game as approximately equal. I don't think this is bad for Black. Black has to give up on the kind side fiancheto. However, that is also the case after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. Bc6 bc6 6. d4.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #59 - 08/23/23 at 19:54:38
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Kerangali wrote on 08/22/23 at 11:42:33:
is there a benefit with playing 4...Nf6 first?


One advantage of playing 4...Nf6 is that White will probably castle. In the Stenitz deferred White might play c3 d4 before castling. In typically confusing fashion, it might not matter! Consider:  1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. c3 Bd7 6. d4 Nf6 7. O-O g6

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This may get you to positions reached by other move orders.
« Last Edit: 08/23/23 at 21:17:26 by FreeRepublic »  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #58 - 08/23/23 at 19:45:17
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FreeRepublic wrote on 07/21/23 at 19:02:08:
Other approaches by Black, for example a king side fianchetto, can be attempted against either 5c3 or 5O-O


Tim Taylor in Slay the Spanish treats the Black fiancheto of the king bishop as something of a universal system as it can come up after either 5.0-0 or 5c3. However, he notes that transposition are not guaranteed.

Certainly 50-0 Bd7 6c3 transposes to 5c3 Bd7 6c3. On the other hand, 5.0-0 Bd7 6c4 and 6d4 are distinct lines. Black, for his part, can play ...g6, ...Bd7 and ...Nf6 by different move orders.

Taylor:  "The basic motif of the Bishop Defence is that Black intends to fianchetto his king’s bishop. Black can play this against almost any move order by White, but must adapt himself to whatever White plays."

Perhaps ...g6 ...Bg7 is not a universal system, but it can be a goal against many moves.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #57 - 08/22/23 at 22:25:27
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Kerangali wrote on 07/18/23 at 06:46:24:
an extreme case of threat stronger than execution


Indeed!
  
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