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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? (Read 45483 times)
Kerangali
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #83 - 06/28/25 at 08:13:26
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> Also, if 5.0-0 then 5...b5!? 6.Bb3 Na5 (transposing to the Taimanov), on 7.d4 exd4!

Not sure about this part. After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 b5 6. Na5 Bb3 7.d4 exd4 8.Nxd4 Bb7 9.Bd2!? (diagram):
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a) Black would like to play 9...c5, but after 10.Bd5 Bxd5 11.exd5 cxd4 12.Qe1+, White has some edge
b) that's why most games feature 9...Nxb3, but after 10.Nxb3 followed by Na5 and Nxb7, White made good use of the position and looks also better.
« Last Edit: 06/28/25 at 21:05:23 by Kerangali »  
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George Jempty
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #82 - 06/27/25 at 08:31:03
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To answer the OP's original question: NOTHING

That is, if Black's actively, instead of any ...Bd7 or ...g6 crapola.  Instead, SF17 now essentially evaluates the Siesta variaton practically completely equal (and I don't let it just churn on 5.c3 f5, I drill in)

Also, if 5.0-0 then 5...b5!? 6.Bb3 Na5 (transposing to the Taimanov), on 7.d4 exd4!

Finally, if White plays 5.d4? Nxd5! I've won many online/blitz (and even rapid) games with the Noah's Ark trap.  So year, not only is the Modern Steinitz playable, but it's probably the only line against the Ruy where Black can possibly notch an especially such a quick win
« Last Edit: 06/27/25 at 23:51:08 by George Jempty »  
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Kerangali
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #81 - 06/05/25 at 15:33:57
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RoleyPoley
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #80 - 06/02/25 at 12:05:56
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Chessbase also have a new video/ course on the Modern Steinitz, with Tim Wall presenting.
  

"As Mikhail Tal would say ' Let's have a bit of hooliganism! '"

Victor Bologan.
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #79 - 05/31/25 at 20:25:04
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I noticed that Van Foreest/Basso don't think much of 5. Bxc6+ (an old main line). Seems it has never been addressed in Chess Publishing.
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #78 - 05/31/25 at 14:39:26
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cathexis wrote on 07/20/23 at 12:46:22:

Also available at Modern Chess, Club Player's Repertoire for Black with 1...e5 by GM Krisztian Szabo (10 hours and 22 mins Running Time):

https://www.modern-chess.com/club-players-repertoire-for-black-with-1-e5-by-gm-k...

PGN files included. They currently have a sale, 60% off.
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #77 - 05/31/25 at 13:28:42
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There is a new database on the subject, Deferred Steinitz for Black - Top-Level Repertoire, May 27, 2025, by GM Lucas van Foreest GM Pier Luigi Basso, available at modern-chess.com

At a glance, it looks to be a good and complete database/book. I think the opening was last covered at modern chess by GM Davorin Kuljasevic, December 23, 2016. Tim Taylor also wrote a book published in 2011 on the opening.

I've looked at the Steinitz Defense Deferred (SDD) from time to time, but have never played it directly, as I play the Open Ruy. However, some SDD lines can arise after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. d3 d6.

Both Taylor and Kuljasevic covered 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O Bg4 6. h3! h5!?, which Taylor calls the Yandemirov Gambit. It may be somewhat dubious. It does not seem to be covered Foreest and Basso. However, they do take an adventurous turn providing a chapter on 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O Bd7 6. c3 g5, which is new to me.

This seems to be a very good title whether it is your initial introduction to the opening or you are adding it to your library.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #76 - 08/30/23 at 00:00:09
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By the way, Vlastimil Jansa's Dynamics of Chess Strategy (mentioned in this thread quite some years ago) had a sub-chapter of about 20 pages ("Steinitz's delicacies") about some of this stuff.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #75 - 08/29/23 at 21:40:39
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Quite a while ago now I made (as a Word file) the doc shown below. I haven't looked at it since and I'm not sure how it will copy here, but here it is in case it's of any use (probably not much, as it seems to cover only positions with c2-c3 in; still, even here the alternatives and the transpos are rather boggling). Parenthetical numbers in the text refer to the Notes below.

*****


Modern Steinitz Move Orders


I  With 5/6/7 …Nf6 (i.e. Black has played …Nf6 by move 7, delaying …Bg7)

(a)  with 5 …Nf6

5 0-0 Nf6(1) 6 c3 Bd7 7 d4(2) g6 → 8 Re1(3) b5(4) 9 Bb3 Bg7


(b)  with 6 …Nf6(5)

5 0-0 Bd7 6 c3 Nf6(6) 7 d4 g6 → 8 Re1 b5 9 Bb3 Bg7

5 0-0 Bd7 6 d4 Nf6(7) 7 c3(8) g6 [Parma–Keres] → ditto.

5 c3 Bd7 6 d4 Nf6 7 0-0(9) g6 → ditto.


(c)  with 7 …Nf6

5 0-0 Bd7 6 c3 g6 7 d4 Nf6 → 8 Re1 b5 9 Bb3 Bg7



II  With 9 …Nf6 (i.e. Black completes his fianchetto on move 7, delaying development of his KN)

5 0-0 Bd7 6 c3 g6 7 d4 Bg7(10) → 8 Re1(11) b5(12) 9 Bb3(13) Nf6

5 c3 Bd7 6 0-0 g6 7 d4 Bg7 → ditto.

5 c3 Bd7 6 d4 g6(14) 7 0-0 Bg7 → ditto.



Notes

  1. 5 ..g6?! 6 d4! (Taylor 22).
  2. Fogarasi–Davies featured a rare, irrelevant transposition of White’s 7th and 8th moves.
  3. Alternatives, in this position with …Nf6 in rather than …Bg7, are: (1) 8 d5; (2) 8 Bg5 b5! 9 Bb3 Bg7 [T 75]; (3) 8 Bc6; and (4) 8 Nbd2.
  4. There is of course nothing wrong with the immediate 8 …Bg7 here, transposing to 8 …Nf6 in note 12.
  5. All mentioned by Taylor at p. 74.
  6. T (11, 41, 54–6, 58–9, 64) says 6 …Nge7 (the Rubinstein Variation) is interesting here with White having castled, but inferior after 5 c3 Bd7 6 d4 because of 7 Be3! (7 …Ng6 8 h4!).
  7. Here Kuljasevic at Modern Chess (Ch. 2) gives instead (though without suggesting Black needs to avoid the next note) 6 …ed 7 Nd4 b5 8 Nc6 Bc6 9 Bb3 Nf6, when Leko–Mamedyarov continued 10 Nc3 Be7 11 Re1 0-0.
  8. Or: (1) 7 Bc6 Bc6 8 Re1 Be7 9 Nc3 ed! 10 Nd4 Bd7 (Stellwagen–Tomashevsky) (T game 71, pp. 221–3); (2) 7 de Ne5! (T 8, 223).
  9. 7 Qe2 Be7! (T 93).
  10. T (23, 75) says 7 …Bg7 here (iso 7 …Nf6) is inferior because of 8 Bg5, but he doesn’t even mention 8 …f6 as given by Kuljasevic (Ch. 8), considered OK for Black.
  11. Alternatives, in this position with …Bg7 in rather than …Nf6, are: (1) 8 d5; (2) 8 Bg5; (3) 8 Be3; (4) 8 de; and (5) 8 h3.
  12. Of course, Black can also play 8 …Nge7 and 8 …Nf6 here, the latter being Kuljasevic’s recommendation (Ch. 10).
  13. See T 76, 81, 82. For 9 Bc2 here see T 76.
  14. T (87, 93) says 6 …g6 here (iso 6 …Nf6) is inferior because of 7 Bg5, but Kuljasevic (Ch. 8) gives 7 …f6 8 Be3 Nh6 9 0-0(!) Bg7, transposing to 8 Bg5 f6 in note 10.


  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #74 - 08/28/23 at 14:51:20
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There are SDD main lines and several sidelines. Here's a sideline that has not been mentioned to my knowledge.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O!? Bd7 6. d4 Nd4 7. Bd7 Qd7 8.Nd4 ed4 9. Qd4 Nf6. I think the resulting position is between += and = and is playable by both sides.

If White wants to avoid main lines, then this is optimal play by both sides, in my opinion.
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #73 - 08/27/23 at 12:41:36
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kylemeister wrote on 08/26/23 at 18:50:12:
Hmm, so he likes 4...Nf6 5. 0-0 d6 6. Bxc6+ bc6 7. Re1 Be7 8. d4 ed4 9. Nxd4 Bd7


Thanks emary and Kylemeister for the additional resources. After move 9, Kuljasevic writes:

"Black is not thrilled about having to play Bd7. As we will see in 6.d4 
exd4 7.Nxd4 variation, he would much rather play c6-c5 and Bb7 to 
quickly obtain counterplay in the center. Yet, we will see that even in 
this apparently passive position black has sufficient resources for 
counterplay."
  
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kylemeister
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #72 - 08/26/23 at 18:50:12
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emary wrote on 08/26/23 at 17:28:42:
Nethertheless Wahls thinks there is a way to a slight White advantage 
(but not more than that). 

Hmm, so he likes 4...Nf6 5. 0-0 d6 6. Bxc6+ bc6 7. Re1 Be7 8. d4 ed4 9. Nxd4 Bd7 10. c4.

An old Informant/ECO bit:  10...0-0 11. Nc3 Re8 12. h3 c5 13. Nf3 Be6 14. b3 Nd7 15. Bf4 (Onischuk-Malaniuk, Russia 2001) Bf6! 16. Qd3 Bxc3 17. Qxc3 f6 +/= Onischuk.

By the way, RIP GM Aleksandar Matanović.

Edited to add:  A survey by Tibor Karolyi in Yearbook 94 (2010) didn't mention 10. c4 (just 10. Nc3 and 10. e5). Included in the survey:  a photo of Portisch.
« Last Edit: 08/26/23 at 21:30:04 by kylemeister »  
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emary
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #71 - 08/26/23 at 17:28:42
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GM Matthias Wahls has done a free video about the "Steinitz Deferred" 
at his youtube-channel: 
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEbfd2AtRqgANVBvpEo85kw ;
(Have a look at the second row of the video-list.)

Wahls tries to prove a  White advantage against 
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 with an early ...d6. ,
He investigates a few plausible White tries for an advantage. 
Wahls concludes that in most cases a well prepared Black player can get interesting equality.   
Nethertheless Wahls thinks there is a way to a slight White advantage 
(but not more than that). 

If someone studies the course of Gawain Jones 
then a crossreading with Wahls' video could be interesting early on.
  
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Kerangali
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #70 - 08/25/23 at 19:30:04
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> Incidentally the first alternative reminded me of (yes, an old game) Karpov-Spassky 1986.
Dear Kylemeister,
we'd be worrying more if you started reminding future games like a precog. Since you spotted me quoting 'IM Rohde', you can gather I'm a boomer too. We have interesting topics on the table: 4...d6 vs 4...Nf6 in the "d6 intending g6" deferred Steinitz, 5...a6 vs 5...Qc7 in the Taimanov Sicilian... Hoping to contribute (in time) and/or learn from these topics.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #69 - 08/25/23 at 18:40:01
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FreeRepublic wrote on 08/25/23 at 17:26:33:
Black can play 8...Nf6, but he also has alternatives in 8...Nge7 or 8...b5. If someone prefers one of the alternatives, then they might prefer the 4...d6 move order.

Incidentally the first alternative reminded me of (yes, an old game) Karpov-Spassky 1986. I notice that Demchenko (who has figured prominently in Chess Publishing coverage of some ...Nge7 stuff) has followed in Spassky's footsteps with 9. Be3 O-O 10. Nbd2 Qe8 11. Bb3 b6. In a 1986 book, Raymond Keene and David Goodman described that as "a curious move that seems to serve no apparent purpose." (I recall thinking maybe it could serve to prevent Bc5 after an exchange on e5.)
  
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