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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? (Read 59959 times)
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #89 - 09/10/25 at 16:21:23
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.d4 b5 6.Bb3 Nxd4 7.Nxd4 exd4 8.c3

In addition to 8...dxc3, Keres gives as good both 8...Bb7 9.cxd4 Nf6 Yates - Bogoljubow 1930 and 8...d3 9.Qxd3 Be6 Rubinstein - O'Hanlon 1930. I'm not too sure about either of those ideas.
from Keres (1952) Offene Spiele vol.1, pg.221-222

Annotating Hort - Keres, European Team Championship 1961 where white played 8.Bd5, Keres says only that if white wants a draw 8.c3 "is much more to the point".
from Keres (1972) Grandmaster of Chess, pg.552

I have a half-memory that Keres favored 8...d3, but I'm not sure where I got that idea. Maybe from Portisch in How to Open a Chess Game.
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #88 - 09/09/25 at 09:31:02
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kylemeister wrote on 05/31/25 at 20:25:04:
I noticed that Van Foreest/Basso don't think much of 5. Bxc6+ (an old main line). Seems it has never been addressed in Chess Publishing.

GM Nigel Davies analysed a few games with 5...bxc6 6 d4 exd4, and Harry recently analysed the line 7 Nxd4 c5 8 Nc6 Qd7 9 Na5 Nf6 10 0-0 by transposition from 4...Nf6 5 0-0 d6 6 Bxc6+, but we've never looked at 6...f6, which I quite like for Black.
One problem with the Steinitz Deferred that bothers me if I want to win is 5 d4 b5 6 Bb3 Nxd4 7 Nxd4 exd4 8 c3 as now 8...dxc3 allows an immediate repetition by 9 Qd5.
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #87 - 09/03/25 at 15:58:42
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Dink Heckler wrote on 09/03/25 at 12:59:56:
Wow! That's enough internet for today.

I feel the same way!

Here's a quote from the original source:
"( 6… g5!? an interesting and slightly provocative alternative. It’s a fun line you can definitely try if you're in the mood for something unorthodox. We’ll take a closer look at it in Chapter 8. )"
  
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Dink Heckler
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #86 - 09/03/25 at 12:59:56
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6. c3 g5

Wow! That's enough internet for today.
  

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FreeRepublic
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #85 - 09/01/25 at 14:01:36
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FreeRepublic wrote on 09/01/25 at 13:32:25:
Black has to play a quieter variation.

I have to take that back. According to an earlier post "Foreest and Basso ... take an adventurous turn providing a chapter on 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O Bd7 6. c3 g5"
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #84 - 09/01/25 at 13:32:25
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Kerangali wrote on 06/28/25 at 08:13:26:
if 5.0-0 then 5...b5!? 6.Bb3 Na5 (transposing to the Taimanov)

Thanks. That's a new idea for me. Most authors are going for 5...Bd7. 5...Bg4 6h3 h5?! has been deeply explored.

Following up on your line B, is the game Peters John A (USA)-Taylor Timothy (USA)  1-0 Lone Pine (USA) 1976:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O!? b5 6. Bb3 Na5 7. d4 ed4 8. Nd4 Bb7 9. Bd2 Nb3 10. Nb3 Nf6 11. Na5 Be4?! certainly what black would like to play but after 12. Re1 d5 13. f3 Bc5 14. Kh1 O-O 15. Nb7 Qe7 16. Nc5 Qc5 17. Be3 Qc2 18. fe4 Qd1 19. Rd1 de4 20. Nc3 black's three extra pawns do not compensate for the piece.

According to Stockfish black is nearly equal after 11. Na5 Qc8 12. Nc3 Be7 13. Qf3 O-O.

One thing I like about 5. O-O!? Bd7 6. c3 for white is that the Siesta variation (5.c3 f5) has been avoided. Black has to play a quieter variation. Although that may have been his choice anyway.
« Last Edit: 09/01/25 at 23:00:05 by FreeRepublic »  
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Kerangali
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #83 - 06/28/25 at 08:13:26
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> Also, if 5.0-0 then 5...b5!? 6.Bb3 Na5 (transposing to the Taimanov), on 7.d4 exd4!

Not sure about this part. After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 b5 6. Na5 Bb3 7.d4 exd4 8.Nxd4 Bb7 9.Bd2!? (diagram):
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a) Black would like to play 9...c5, but after 10.Bd5 Bxd5 11.exd5 cxd4 12.Qe1+, White has some edge
b) that's why most games feature 9...Nxb3, but after 10.Nxb3 followed by Na5 and Nxb7, White made good use of the position and looks also better.
« Last Edit: 06/28/25 at 21:05:23 by Kerangali »  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #82 - 06/27/25 at 08:31:03
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To answer the OP's original question: NOTHING

That is, if Black's actively, instead of any ...Bd7 or ...g6 crapola.  Instead, SF17 now essentially evaluates the Siesta variaton practically completely equal (and I don't let it just churn on 5.c3 f5, I drill in)

Also, if 5.0-0 then 5...b5!? 6.Bb3 Na5 (transposing to the Taimanov), on 7.d4 exd4!

Finally, if White plays 5.d4? Nxd5! I've won many online/blitz (and even rapid) games with the Noah's Ark trap.  So year, not only is the Modern Steinitz playable, but it's probably the only line against the Ruy where Black can possibly notch an especially such a quick win
« Last Edit: 06/27/25 at 23:51:08 by George Jempty »  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #81 - 06/05/25 at 15:33:57
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #80 - 06/02/25 at 12:05:56
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Chessbase also have a new video/ course on the Modern Steinitz, with Tim Wall presenting.
  

"As Mikhail Tal would say ' Let's have a bit of hooliganism! '"

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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #79 - 05/31/25 at 20:25:04
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I noticed that Van Foreest/Basso don't think much of 5. Bxc6+ (an old main line). Seems it has never been addressed in Chess Publishing.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #78 - 05/31/25 at 14:39:26
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cathexis wrote on 07/20/23 at 12:46:22:

Also available at Modern Chess, Club Player's Repertoire for Black with 1...e5 by GM Krisztian Szabo (10 hours and 22 mins Running Time):

https://www.modern-chess.com/club-players-repertoire-for-black-with-1-e5-by-gm-k...

PGN files included. They currently have a sale, 60% off.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #77 - 05/31/25 at 13:28:42
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There is a new database on the subject, Deferred Steinitz for Black - Top-Level Repertoire, May 27, 2025, by GM Lucas van Foreest GM Pier Luigi Basso, available at modern-chess.com

At a glance, it looks to be a good and complete database/book. I think the opening was last covered at modern chess by GM Davorin Kuljasevic, December 23, 2016. Tim Taylor also wrote a book published in 2011 on the opening.

I've looked at the Steinitz Defense Deferred (SDD) from time to time, but have never played it directly, as I play the Open Ruy. However, some SDD lines can arise after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. d3 d6.

Both Taylor and Kuljasevic covered 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O Bg4 6. h3! h5!?, which Taylor calls the Yandemirov Gambit. It may be somewhat dubious. It does not seem to be covered Foreest and Basso. However, they do take an adventurous turn providing a chapter on 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O Bd7 6. c3 g5, which is new to me.

This seems to be a very good title whether it is your initial introduction to the opening or you are adding it to your library.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #76 - 08/30/23 at 00:00:09
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By the way, Vlastimil Jansa's Dynamics of Chess Strategy (mentioned in this thread quite some years ago) had a sub-chapter of about 20 pages ("Steinitz's delicacies") about some of this stuff.
  
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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #75 - 08/29/23 at 21:40:39
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Quite a while ago now I made (as a Word file) the doc shown below. I haven't looked at it since and I'm not sure how it will copy here, but here it is in case it's of any use (probably not much, as it seems to cover only positions with c2-c3 in; still, even here the alternatives and the transpos are rather boggling). Parenthetical numbers in the text refer to the Notes below.

*****


Modern Steinitz Move Orders


I  With 5/6/7 …Nf6 (i.e. Black has played …Nf6 by move 7, delaying …Bg7)

(a)  with 5 …Nf6

5 0-0 Nf6(1) 6 c3 Bd7 7 d4(2) g6 → 8 Re1(3) b5(4) 9 Bb3 Bg7


(b)  with 6 …Nf6(5)

5 0-0 Bd7 6 c3 Nf6(6) 7 d4 g6 → 8 Re1 b5 9 Bb3 Bg7

5 0-0 Bd7 6 d4 Nf6(7) 7 c3(8) g6 [Parma–Keres] → ditto.

5 c3 Bd7 6 d4 Nf6 7 0-0(9) g6 → ditto.


(c)  with 7 …Nf6

5 0-0 Bd7 6 c3 g6 7 d4 Nf6 → 8 Re1 b5 9 Bb3 Bg7



II  With 9 …Nf6 (i.e. Black completes his fianchetto on move 7, delaying development of his KN)

5 0-0 Bd7 6 c3 g6 7 d4 Bg7(10) → 8 Re1(11) b5(12) 9 Bb3(13) Nf6

5 c3 Bd7 6 0-0 g6 7 d4 Bg7 → ditto.

5 c3 Bd7 6 d4 g6(14) 7 0-0 Bg7 → ditto.



Notes

  1. 5 ..g6?! 6 d4! (Taylor 22).
  2. Fogarasi–Davies featured a rare, irrelevant transposition of White’s 7th and 8th moves.
  3. Alternatives, in this position with …Nf6 in rather than …Bg7, are: (1) 8 d5; (2) 8 Bg5 b5! 9 Bb3 Bg7 [T 75]; (3) 8 Bc6; and (4) 8 Nbd2.
  4. There is of course nothing wrong with the immediate 8 …Bg7 here, transposing to 8 …Nf6 in note 12.
  5. All mentioned by Taylor at p. 74.
  6. T (11, 41, 54–6, 58–9, 64) says 6 …Nge7 (the Rubinstein Variation) is interesting here with White having castled, but inferior after 5 c3 Bd7 6 d4 because of 7 Be3! (7 …Ng6 8 h4!).
  7. Here Kuljasevic at Modern Chess (Ch. 2) gives instead (though without suggesting Black needs to avoid the next note) 6 …ed 7 Nd4 b5 8 Nc6 Bc6 9 Bb3 Nf6, when Leko–Mamedyarov continued 10 Nc3 Be7 11 Re1 0-0.
  8. Or: (1) 7 Bc6 Bc6 8 Re1 Be7 9 Nc3 ed! 10 Nd4 Bd7 (Stellwagen–Tomashevsky) (T game 71, pp. 221–3); (2) 7 de Ne5! (T 8, 223).
  9. 7 Qe2 Be7! (T 93).
  10. T (23, 75) says 7 …Bg7 here (iso 7 …Nf6) is inferior because of 8 Bg5, but he doesn’t even mention 8 …f6 as given by Kuljasevic (Ch. 8), considered OK for Black.
  11. Alternatives, in this position with …Bg7 in rather than …Nf6, are: (1) 8 d5; (2) 8 Bg5; (3) 8 Be3; (4) 8 de; and (5) 8 h3.
  12. Of course, Black can also play 8 …Nge7 and 8 …Nf6 here, the latter being Kuljasevic’s recommendation (Ch. 10).
  13. See T 76, 81, 82. For 9 Bc2 here see T 76.
  14. T (87, 93) says 6 …g6 here (iso 6 …Nf6) is inferior because of 7 Bg5, but Kuljasevic (Ch. 8) gives 7 …f6 8 Be3 Nh6 9 0-0(!) Bg7, transposing to 8 Bg5 f6 in note 10.


  
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