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Stigma
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Re: Pirc Move Order Issues
Reply #8 - 04/22/08 at 13:41:25
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Just a quick thought on the line 1.e4 d6 2.f4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.Nc3 c5 which Eddie gave in his initial post. With this particular move order (or 2.Nc3 before f4) I would be inclined to try 4...Nf6 as Black, the idea being to avoid the GPA altogether. Then 5.Bc4 Nxe4!? is interesting, while 5.g3 c5 returns to the Closed Sicilian lines from Palliser's recent book.

So if White wants to guarantee a Grand Prix Attack he has to play Bc4 earlier than move 5, i.e. 1.e4 d6 2.Nc3 g6 3.Bc4 Bg7 and Black has avoided the dangerous Bb5+ idea I mentioned above simply by delaying ...c5!

PS: The line 1.e4 d6 2.Nc3 g6 3.Bc4 Bg7 4.f4 Nf6 5.d3 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.0-0 used to be part of my Black repertoire after it was considered playable in an old NIC Yearbook article. Here I intended 7...Bg4 to exchange off an attacking piece, but this line seems to have disappeared completely from modern practice! Does anybody know why? Meanwhile 7...0-0 8.Qe1 (intending f5) is scoring rather well for White.
  

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Stigma
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Re: Pirc Move Order Issues
Reply #7 - 04/22/08 at 13:03:16
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Edward Dearing wrote on 04/02/08 at 01:20:04:
Hi guys,

I noticed a while back that certain readers of James Vigus's recent work on the Pirc were complaining that he didn't cover move orders such as 1.e4 d6 2.Nc3 or 2.f4.
...


Just noticed this thread, and realized I am one of the "certain readers" referred to. (And no, I'm not going to ask about 2.d3)

I can just about live with playing into early ....d6 lines against the Grand Prix Attack (1.e4 d6 2.Nc3 move order) since most GPA players don't know their theory very well anyway, but I am a bit worried about the tempo-losing line with Bb5+ Bd7, Bc4!?, arguing that the bishop is worse on d7 than on c8, that was briefly analyzed in "Chess Openings for White, Explained". I know that book was torn apart by Watson, but this particular line is one of its bright spots and several years before the book appeared I was on the losing side of the same idea, which my opponent had found in home analysis. I THOUGHT I was well-prepared for that game...

As for 2.f4 d5!? I like the idea; will probably take it up if I stick with the Pirc!

But the main fun-killer for me has been 1.e4 d6 2.c4(!), since neither the King's Indian, the Benoni, the Modern Averbakh lines or the Symmetrical English are part of my repertoire. It has been hard to find something both playable and independent against opponents who are actually well-prepared for the Classical KID, the English Botvinnik System and the Maroczy Bind. So in the right hands 2.c4 is not merely a sideline to avoid theory, but a powerful transpositional move. Vigus suggested (in another thread) that Black can set up a Botvinnik System with ...e5 and ...c5 and be happy. The problem with that is that I play the Pirc when i want to unbalance the game and WIN with Black, if I'm looking to equalize I don't play 1...d6 at all. Imagine the trials of trying to beat a weaker opponent in the "Symmetrical Botvinnik System" with c4-d3-e4 against c5-d6-e5 (of course both players will follow standard advise and put their knights on e2/e7 rather than f3/f6). Undecided
  

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Edward Dearing
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Re: Pirc Move Order Issues
Reply #6 - 04/04/08 at 14:29:03
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Yep, the idea is to develop the bishop to g4 and play the position like a good Caro-Kann or a c6, d5 Modern, where the tempo lost on d6-d5 has been recovered on achieving c5 in one move.

A rather one-sided example of how this can be played for black can be seen in the game Moskovic-Collins, 4NCL 2007.
  
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Re: Pirc Move Order Issues
Reply #5 - 04/04/08 at 10:28:50
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What about 1. e4-d6 2.f4-d5 3.e5? I presume black's plan is to play c5 and wait to see whether white plays Nf3 or not to decide where to put the light square bishop (f5 or g4), a bit as in the grand Prix Attack (or in a French with a more active bishop)
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Pirc Move Order Issues
Reply #4 - 04/04/08 at 07:20:10
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I totally agree with that. It even gives you the opportunity to play the very fun Bronstein variation of the Scandi (... Qd8 followed by setting up a kingside fianchetto) which was put out of business by Fischers Bf4. I think a Pirc player will enjoy this line very much.
  
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Re: Pirc Move Order Issues
Reply #3 - 04/04/08 at 02:25:02
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I am not going to comment on the 2.Nc3 lines. Much stronger players than me have already done so.

However there is a major alternative in the 2.f4 lines.

1. e4 d6
2. f4 d5 transposing to a Centre Counter where white has used his extra tempo to play f4 which
looks inappropriate.

  

I am hopelessly addicted to the King's Gambit
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Edward Dearing
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Re: Pirc Move Order Issues
Reply #2 - 04/02/08 at 15:08:13
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4...Ng8 is fine, the position is just unclear. See Nixon-Dearing, from Smith & Williamson Young Masters 2003 for an example of how quickly White can get into trouble in these lines.
  
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JEH
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Re: Pirc Move Order Issues
Reply #1 - 04/02/08 at 07:25:59
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Thanks Eddie. That's what I'm doing, and I've been using the Rogozenko book, so I second your advice.

Since one of the objectives of the Pirc is to backdoor into a Sicilian whilst avoiding the Yugoslav Dragon, Black should welcome these variations.

The Vigus book states on p18 that "The starting point of this book is strictly the positon after 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6." Due to space constraints, and due to this position as really defining what the Pirc is. It's chunky enough as is!

Otherwise the game will transpose into other openings, and so it's necessary to consult other sources. The Pirc player has to be prepared for a lot of variety. That's why I like it  Wink

Nigel Davies's DVD on the Pirc also does consider briefly the earlier deviations, with 1. e4 d6 2. f4 d5 leading to a kind of Scandinavian with an extra f4 thrown in, and also 1. e4 d6 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. f4 d5, which is, err, a kind of Alekine with an extra f4 thrown in Huh

So the Pirc player has a choice.  That's why I like it  Wink

As for 3. Bd3, which is quite popular with lower rated players, heading for a lazy c3 system, 3. ...e5 4. c3 d5 5. de Nxe4 does seem to equalise in a kind of Open Lopez without the Queenside weaknesses kind of way.  However a lot of Pirc players will just go 4. ...g6 which is ok for Black - See Tiger's Modern for example.

As for 3. f3, well this is becoming an interesting beast, especially if White has come from 1. d4 d6 2. e4 Nf6 3. f3, and so is probably a d4 player angling for a Saemisch. I've also noticed that Anand uses it when facing Pircmeisters in rapids. But White has to be prepared for a lot of other stuff. I've also noticed a new book, A Positional Opening Repertoire for the Club Player by Nikolai Kalinichenko recommends f3, so maybe it might become more popular with the fish.

I've been going 3. ...d5 4 e5 Nd7, aiming for a French (yay, we get to play everything  Smiley), and I've tried 4. ...Nb8 once. Sadly though I seem to keep losing all these game, so I need to find something else, or do more work in it! There's 3. ...e5, recommended in the Exlposive Repetoire, which could lead to an, err, explosive ending. Or, just go 3. ...g6 and get on with it in normal main lines.

I'm sure we'll still get someone asking what to do against 1. e4 d6 2. d3  Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: 04/02/08 at 08:33:02 by JEH »  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Edward Dearing
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Pirc Move Order Issues
04/02/08 at 01:20:04
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Hi guys,

I noticed a while back that certain readers of James Vigus's recent work on the Pirc were complaining that he didn't cover move orders such as 1.e4 d6 2.Nc3 or 2.f4.

This is a valid complaint of most books on the 1...d6 complex, although perhaps less so of James's book, if only because technically the Pirc does not actually arise until you reach the following position: 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6, so 2nd move alternatives are logically outside the scope.

Sadly that doesn't help much, so perhaps the following will: both 2.Nc3 and 2.f4 should be met with 2...g6, rather than 2...Nf6 (unless you want to play the Philidor, in which case you need to have a think about lines involving 2.f4 d5!? or 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f4 Bg4 - there are a few games with each on the database, but black seems to be holding his own).

Then 1.e4 d6 2.f4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.Nc3 c5 is fine for black. 5.g3 Nc6 is a standard closed sicilian, 5.Bc4 Nc6 is a Grand Prix Attack where black has played an early d6 (check out the games of Gelfand, Anand etc, and also Rogozenko's excellent anti-sicilian book to see why this is not a problem for black), 5.Bb5+ Bd7 is also known to be fine for black, and 5.d4 cxd4 6.Nxd4 Nc6 leads us into a harmless line of the Dragon that shouldn't take more than an hour to get comfortable with (I can recommend a decent book if necessary!).

Anything else (e.g. 4.d4) leads us back into Pirc/Modern territory.

Hope that helps folks.

All the best,

Eddie
  
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