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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) London System/King's Indian Question (Read 6656 times)
trandism
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Re: London System/King's Indian Question
Reply #11 - 04/13/08 at 10:53:59
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Golubev you say.. I'll search about that..

As for naming the variation, I would prefer "Dzindzi variation" from Roman Dzindzichasvhili (how on earth do we spell that)..

He has made a 30 minutes video on that variation showing some lines (even less than what I have on my PGN).. His evaluations are more extremely favorite for white - "black is terrible", "black had to be drunk to play this etc.  Grin" -, fritz disagrees with him, but on his own games he proves that the system is very dangerous to say the least.

  
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Anonymous
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Re: London System/King's Indian Question
Reply #10 - 04/12/08 at 23:32:01
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trandism wrote on 04/12/08 at 22:04:40:
Yes I see that it is not the same line that Anonymous mentions but it has some related lines inside, so it might be interesting to some people..

I've mentioned that it's not top stuff, I'm a complete amateur but I think the lines that I give for White are OK for <2000 ratings..

If anyone wants to add stuff or change stuff to this PGN and post it back, it would be great.

Cheers


I believe the line that you give with ...c6, ...a6, ...b5, and ...dxc4 is what Mikhail Golubev recommends for black in his book Understanding the King's Indian. If anyone has this book and wants to add to tandism's analysis by using the analysis in Golubev's book, that would be great.
  
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trandism
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Re: London System/King's Indian Question
Reply #9 - 04/12/08 at 22:04:40
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Yes I see that it is not the same line that Anonymous mentions but it has some related lines inside, so it might be interesting to some people..

I've mentioned that it's not top stuff, I'm a complete amateur but I think the lines that I give for White are OK for <2000 ratings..

If anyone wants to add stuff or change stuff to this PGN and post it back, it would be great.

Cheers
  
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Chevalier
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Re: London System/King's Indian Question
Reply #8 - 04/12/08 at 20:33:25
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trandism wrote on 04/12/08 at 12:19:21:
Right.. I've done some analysis on that, it's not top stuff of course but I think you can get an idea.. Any feedback appreciated (see attachment)

Cheers


I received your file - your analysis is at a decent level, although I disagree that your main line is better for White (I wrote a survey on the position after 9...b5 and concluded that White has equality if he plays precisely!).

Your attachment probably belongs in the KID section - I don't know the name of this variation, but I've decided to call it the "Urday Caceres Variation" after the IM Henry Urday Caceres, who played 18 games with it in the database, with excellent results (an alternative name could be the "Dzindzichashvili Variation", since according to my ChessBase, he was the first GM to play the line consistently, scoring a whopping 8/9).
  

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Anonymous
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Re: London System/King's Indian Question
Reply #7 - 04/12/08 at 17:48:35
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trandism wrote on 04/12/08 at 12:19:21:
Right.. I've done some analysis on that, it's not top stuff of course but I think you can get an idea.. Any feedback appreciated (see attachment)

Cheers


The line you mainly analyze isn't the line we are talking about. You briefly mention the ...Nfd7 line but with white already having played c4. The line I am talking about is where white tries to meet ...Nfd7 with c4: 1 d4 Nf6 2 Bf4 g6 3 e3 Bg7 4 Nf3 d6 5 h3 0-0 6 Be2 Nfd7 7 e4.
  
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trandism
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Re: London System/King's Indian Question
Reply #6 - 04/12/08 at 12:19:21
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Right.. I've done some analysis on that, it's not top stuff of course but I think you can get an idea.. Any feedback appreciated (see attachment)

Cheers
  

pub.pgn ( 2 KB | 92 Downloads )
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Anonymous
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Re: London System/King's Indian Question
Reply #5 - 04/11/08 at 23:25:54
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Chevalier wrote on 04/11/08 at 23:18:30:
What about 7.c4(!), which is similar to an interesting sideline of the KID (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Nf3 d6 5.Bf4 0-0 6.h3 and now 6...Nfd7 7.e3 followed by Be2 will transpose to the line discussed).

I am not sure if Black's early commitment to ...Nfd7 gives White any advantage, but it certainly looks like White's best try, and White scores fairly well in practice. Furthermore, Black would not be expecting the move c4 from a London exponent.


7 c4 will probably just transpose to the complicated and unclear line I give above after 7...e5 8 Bh2 Nc6 0-0.

Actually, white often plays c4 in the London System against the King's Indian when black plays for ...e5.
  
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Chevalier
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Re: London System/King's Indian Question
Reply #4 - 04/11/08 at 23:18:30
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What about 7.c4(!), which is similar to an interesting sideline of the KID (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Nf3 d6 5.Bf4 0-0 6.h3 and now 6...Nfd7 7.e3 followed by Be2 will transpose to the line discussed).

I am not sure if Black's early commitment to ...Nfd7 gives White any advantage, but it certainly looks like White's best try, and White scores fairly well in practice. Furthermore, Black would not be expecting the move c4 from a London exponent.
  

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Anonymous
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Re: London System/King's Indian Question
Reply #3 - 04/11/08 at 21:36:42
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kylemeister wrote on 04/11/08 at 21:19:43:
MNb wrote on 04/11/08 at 20:59:44:
Now this is a question worth answering. Still it would have been nice if you had showed what sequence you exactly have in mind.
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bf4 Bg7 4.h3 d6 5.e3 0-0 6.Be2 Nfd7 7.e4 perhaps? Then I doubt if this is more than equal. White's play has not exactly been forcing. Moreover Black has other options but 6...Nfd7.


I notice that ECO thinks White can get an edge there by playing "normally" (7. 0-0 e5 8. Bh2 etc.).  It seems that 6...Nfd7 isn't considered one of Black's best moves, which perhaps makes it implausible that the reversed version should be advantageous.  (I tend to prefer 6...c5 as in e.g. Kamsky-Benjamin from 1991 or so; White sometimes aims to play a reversed version of that.)


Yes, that is the line I am talking about but I think the best move-order for both sides is 1 d4 Nf6 2 Bf4 g6 3 e3 Bg7 4 Nf3 d6 5 h3 0-0 6 Be2 Nfd7 7 e4. I know black has other options than 6...Nfd7 but this move is very interesting and I think needs analyzing.

The book Win With the London System also thinks that white can get an edge by playing 7 0-0 e5 8 Bh2 with the normal idea of attacking on the queenside with c4. However, the line 8...Nc6 9 c4 f5 10 Nc3 g5 is very complicated. 11 dxe5 dxe5 12 Nd5 has been recommended as giving white an advantage but I'm not totally convinced. This is why I am wondering if the much safer 7 e4 is sufficient to give white an advantage.


  
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kylemeister
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Re: London System/King's Indian Question
Reply #2 - 04/11/08 at 21:19:43
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MNb wrote on 04/11/08 at 20:59:44:
Now this is a question worth answering. Still it would have been nice if you had showed what sequence you exactly have in mind.
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bf4 Bg7 4.h3 d6 5.e3 0-0 6.Be2 Nfd7 7.e4 perhaps? Then I doubt if this is more than equal. White's play has not exactly been forcing. Moreover Black has other options but 6...Nfd7.


I notice that ECO thinks White can get an edge there by playing "normally" (7. 0-0 e5 8. Bh2 etc.).  It seems that 6...Nfd7 isn't considered one of Black's best moves, which perhaps makes it implausible that the reversed version should be advantageous.  (I tend to prefer 6...c5 as in e.g. Kamsky-Benjamin from 1991 or so; White sometimes aims to play a reversed version of that.)
  
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MNb
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Re: London System/King's Indian Question
Reply #1 - 04/11/08 at 20:59:44
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Now this is a question worth answering. Still it would have been nice if you had showed what sequence you exactly have in mind.
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bf4 Bg7 4.h3 d6 5.e3 0-0 6.Be2 Nfd7 7.e4 perhaps? Then I doubt if this is more than equal. White's play has not exactly been forcing. Moreover Black has other options but 6...Nfd7.
  

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Anonymous
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London System/King's Indian Question
04/11/08 at 20:21:06
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On the Flank Openings Forum, there is some discussion of the reversed London System/ King's Indian line 1 Nf3 d5 2 g3 Nf6 3 Bg2 Bf5 4 0-0 e6 5 d3 h6 6 Nfd2. Now IM Richard Palliser believes that the move 6...e5 is sufficient enough to give black equality. Do you think playing this move a tempo up as white should give white an advantage?
  
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