Latest Updates:
Poll
Poll closed Question: Black's best 6th move against the Classical Pirc
bars   pie
*** This poll has now closed ***


c6    
  8 (33.3%)
Nc6    
  3 (12.5%)
Bg4    
  5 (20.8%)
c5    
  4 (16.7%)
other    
  0 (0.0%)
e6    
  0 (0.0%)
a6    
  4 (16.7%)




Total votes: 24
« Last Modified by: thibdb13 on: 04/17/08 at 06:35:55 »
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Classical Pirc - which continuation for Black? (Read 9051 times)
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4706
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Classical Pirc - which continuation for Black?
Reply #22 - 04/21/08 at 15:13:48
Post Tools
thibdb13 wrote on 04/21/08 at 07:03:49:
kylemeister wrote on 04/19/08 at 23:49:07:
I'd say that 6...Nbd7 is quite independent.  It invites 7. e5, which is indeed the usual reply; against most other moves Black would probably play 7...e5.  (If White plays something other than 7. e5, playing 7...c5 then would probably just result in a bad Benoni after 8. d5.)

So, it is a bit as going to war on a horse against tanks, isn't it?


Er, well, it's the sort of line that's always been considered +/=.  I guess that below some level it usually "serves" as an introduction to things like 7. e5 de? 8. de Ne8?? 9. e6 + -, though.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
thibdb13
God Member
*****
Offline


Tal was the best

Posts: 974
Location: Mechelen
Joined: 01/25/07
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Pirc - which continuation for Black?
Reply #21 - 04/21/08 at 07:03:49
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 04/19/08 at 23:49:07:
I'd say that 6...Nbd7 is quite independent.  It invites 7. e5, which is indeed the usual reply; against most other moves Black would probably play 7...e5.  (If White plays something other than 7. e5, playing 7...c5 then would probably just result in a bad Benoni after 8. d5.)

So, it is a bit as going to war on a horse against tanks, isn't it?
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Antillian
God Member
*****
Offline


Brilliance without dazzle!

Posts: 1756
Joined: 01/05/03
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Pirc - which continuation for Black?
Reply #20 - 04/20/08 at 16:31:31
Post Tools
Nunn does indeed cover 6...Nbd7  in "The Ultimate Pirc". I personally think it deserves at least a  ?!
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4706
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Classical Pirc - which continuation for Black?
Reply #19 - 04/19/08 at 23:49:07
Post Tools
I'd say that 6...Nbd7 is quite independent.  It invites 7. e5, which is indeed the usual reply; against most other moves Black would probably play 7...e5.  (If White plays something other than 7. e5, playing 7...c5 then would probably just result in a bad Benoni after 8. d5.)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Pirc - which continuation for Black?
Reply #18 - 04/19/08 at 23:09:47
Post Tools
thibdb13 wrote on 04/19/08 at 22:49:52:
Has Nbd7 any independant significance or is it just a "wait and see" move?


Might have to back to Ultimate Pirc for this one as I can't find it in PiB&W. 6. ...Nbd7 may transpose into c6 lines, or Black can risk c5. Critical is 7. e5 and White seems to be scoring well.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
thibdb13
God Member
*****
Offline


Tal was the best

Posts: 974
Location: Mechelen
Joined: 01/25/07
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Pirc - which continuation for Black?
Reply #17 - 04/19/08 at 22:49:52
Post Tools
Has Nbd7 any independant significance or is it just a "wait and see" move?
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Pirc - which continuation for Black?
Reply #16 - 04/19/08 at 17:24:29
Post Tools
For the statistically minded, all of the following moves have been selected
by GMs according to Megabase...
Move      Games    White Score

6. ...c6     3344      51%
6. ...Bg4   2311      55%
6. ...Nc6     882      53%
6. ...Nbd7   723      57%
6. ...c5       491      53%
6. ...a6       353      49%
6. ...e5       157      61%
6. ...b6       133      61%
6. ...Na6       80      59%
6. ...e6         65      38%
6. ...Nfd7      23      59%
6. ...a5         16      50%

So c6 is most popular and scores above average for Black.
Bg4 is very popular too, and scores avergagly, but the less popular
Nc6 is scoring a little better, so well worth a look.
Black has a lot of choice to suit taste, and though some lines don't seem
to score that well, moves like e6 and a6
could be catching White players out.


The following have also been tried, but apart from Bd7 played by
an IM once, they aren't selected by titled players.

6. ...Bd7
6. ...Re8
6. ...h6
6. ...d5
6. ...Nh5
6. ...Ng4
6. ...Qe8
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
James Vigus
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 77
Joined: 07/30/06
Re: Classical Pirc - which continuation for Black?
Reply #15 - 04/19/08 at 09:57:32
Post Tools
I did use Tiger's Modern, but still recommend it to anyone interested in this 6...e6 line and ...a6, ...b5 expansions in general - his thematic discussions are excellent. I hardly found any space to discuss 6...a6 in my book, but that NIC survey is very thorough. I also felt that 6...a6 and 6...e6 are rather similar, since in both cases it tends to be better for Black to follow with ...Nc6 - rather than immediately lashing out with ...b5, which gets undermined too easily.
I've cast my vote for 6...Nc6 - ever since a couple of bad experiences with 6...Bg4 many years ago, I've played 6...c6, but took a liking to the knight move while researching my book (as explained there). But I believe these are all matters of taste rather than theoretical urgency.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Legion XIX
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline



Posts: 44
Location: ?
Joined: 04/14/08
Re: Classical Pirc - which continuation for Black?
Reply #14 - 04/18/08 at 22:40:34
Post Tools
Two good references for the Classical Pirc:

1. Yearbooks 80-82, a three part survey on the 6...a6 variation of the Pirc. I don't remember Marin's conclusions, but I think he claimed good chances of equality for Black.

2. "Tiger's Modern", which has detailed coverage of the interesting 6...e6 variation. But Vigus probably used this book as a source for his analyses in his book "The Pirc in Black and White" - unfortunately I don't have his book, so I can't check his bibliography, but afaik, it was quite detailed.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3195
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Pirc - which continuation for Black?
Reply #13 - 04/18/08 at 11:44:47
Post Tools
I've always considered the ...c6 lines a good way to guarantee an unbalanced fight with many pieces left on the board, to preserve winning chances. Black has many more or less automatic moves to play (Nbd7, Qc7, b6, a6 and eventually b5) and White often struggles for a plan.

This logic applies mainly against weaker players of course, but I mostly play the Pirc against weaker players these days... For equality I would probably recommend 6...Bg4, while 6...c5!? is another interesting attempt to unbalance. The endgames after 7.dxc5 dxc5 can go wrong for White surprisingly fast. But to play 6...c5 one must be ready for transpositions to the Schmid Benoni (7.d5) and the Classical Dragon (i.e. 7.Re1 and it's not clear Black has better than 7...cxd4).
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
thibdb13
God Member
*****
Offline


Tal was the best

Posts: 974
Location: Mechelen
Joined: 01/25/07
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Pirc - which continuation for Black?
Reply #12 - 04/18/08 at 06:21:27
Post Tools
thibdb13 wrote on 04/16/08 at 14:19:14:
Bibs wrote on 04/16/08 at 13:16:45:
Thiddb
No 6...e6 option a la Benjamin?

e6 has been added.
To be honnest I didn't think that e6 could be playable...

Last night I have had a quick look at Vigus' book and I must say e6 does not look so bad as I first thought. It could well offer very interesting counter-attacking chances to black.
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4706
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Classical Pirc - which continuation for Black?
Reply #11 - 04/18/08 at 04:31:05
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 04/18/08 at 02:33:12:
How does 6.0-0 a6 compare to the Ujtelky Defence, where the king's knight is still on g8? I assume that White again plays the Classical. If Black tries the typical plan 2...Nf6/6.0-0 a6 7...Nd7 8...b5 (or b6, if White plays x.a4) 9...Nd7 10...c5; is e4-e5 a threat?


That looks a bit garbled, but I believe the answer to what I believe you meant is that in most cases such a sequence would indeed run into a strong e5.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10605
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Pirc - which continuation for Black?
Reply #10 - 04/18/08 at 02:33:12
Post Tools
How does 6.0-0 a6 compare to the Ujtelky Defence, where the king's knight is still on g8? I assume that White again plays the Classical. If Black tries the typical plan 2...Nf6/6.0-0 a6 7...Nd7 8...b5 (or b6, if White plays x.a4) 9...Nd7 10...c5; is e4-e5 a threat?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
thibdb13
God Member
*****
Offline


Tal was the best

Posts: 974
Location: Mechelen
Joined: 01/25/07
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Pirc - which continuation for Black?
Reply #9 - 04/17/08 at 06:36:19
Post Tools
a6 also added
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Pirc - which continuation for Black?
Reply #8 - 04/16/08 at 19:28:20
Post Tools
It's pretty much always been 6. ...Bg4 for me, and I've an excellent score with it (over 80% in tournament games). I feel comfortable in the resulting middlegames. I used to face it relatively frequently, before the rise of the 150 attack, Karpov influence I guess, but it seems to be waning. Or maybe my opponents have looked up my score against it  Wink

I did once fear ending up in the arid 9. de line, but after over 20 years of Pircing, I've only been in that line once, and I was White  Embarrassed

P.S. Another option is 6. ...a6 !?
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo