I've just been having a look at the Steinitz Gambit and I independently reached the same conclusion.  The immediate 10.a4 limits Black's options (e.g. 10...f5 is no longer as strong because of 11.a5).  I think 10...Bg7 is indeed best, with the idea 11.a5 Nge7, planning to castle kingside.  Thus White should play 11.Nd5, encouraging 11...0-0-0.  My analysis continued 12.a5 b5 13.Qe2 a6, shoring up the queenside, and threatening ...g5-g4, and Black is slightly better, but White has some attacking chances on the queenside with the idea of c2-c4.

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1217111507/47
I don't have anything to add to the analysis of the Hamppe-Allgaier as while White may or may not have marginal improvements over Brabo's analysis, it's clear that White's compensation is probably insufficient for full equality in the 8...f3 line.  But it may not matter as 5.g3!? is currently getting favourable attention, even at Grandmaster level, via the Quaade Gambit (when 3.Nf3 g5 4.Nc3 Nc6 transposes).

Thus, another reason for preferring 3...Qh4+ 4.Ke2 Ne7! =+.

SWJediknight wrote on 11/06/10 at 19:23:48:


1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nc3 Nc6 4. Nf3 g5 5. h4 g4 6. Ng5 h6 7. Nxf7 Kxf7 8. d4 f3 9.gxf3 Be7 10.Be3 (9.Be3 Be7 10.gxf3 is a simple transposition) d6 11.Bc4+

A) 11....Kg7 12.Bf2 Nf6 13.Qd2 d5 14.exd5 Na5 15.Bd3 Nxd5 (All this was already published by myself at 25th of October) 16.fxg4 Bb4 and I can't see sufficient compensation for the sacrificed piece

B) 11...Ke8 12.h5 Nf6 13.Qe2 Rf8 (gxf3 should also be good for a serious advantage for black) 14.e5 dxe5 15.Qd3 e4! 16.fxe4 Nb4 17.Qd2 g3! and the complications seem to be winning for black.

I believe in an OTB game you can get away with this but in a high level CC game I think you will suffer with white.

Could someone please correct the title of this thread?

As far as I know this opening is known as the "Mason gambit", Masion looks like a misspelling of "maison" 

SWJediknight wrote on 11/06/10 at 19:23:48:


After 8...f3 I prefer an immediate 9.Be3.  At worst, it's a transpositional device that leads back into the lines under discussion.  At best, it encourages 9...fxg2 which I believe to be winning for white based on two correspondence games I played in 2009 (included below).  Having said that, 9...d5 and 9...Bb4 also deserve consideration but that's for a separate post...

I have much more to add to this discussion but before I do that I'm going to go back and try to organize all of the analysis posted thus far into PGN format, so that I can be sure that I've not overlooked an important contribution.  

[Event "?"]
[Site "Online Chess"]
[Date "2009.09.21"]
[Round "?"]
[White "R. Gates"]
[Black "mortzy"]
[Result "1-0"]
[PlyCount "71"]
[EventDate "2009.??.??"]
[TimeControl "1"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Nc3 d6 5. h4 g4 6. Ng5 h6 7. Nxf7 Kxf7 8. d4
f3 9. Be3 fxg2 10. Bxg2 Be7 11. O-O+ Kg7 12. e5 c6 13. Qe2 d5 (13... dxe5 14.
dxe5 Be6 15. Be4 Qc8 16. Rf4 h5 17. Raf1 Rh6 18. Qf2 Qe8 19. Bf5 Kh8 20. Bxe6
Rxe6 21. Rf7 Bf6 22. Rxf6 Nxf6 23. exf6 Qg6 24. Ne2 g3 25. Qf3 Qg4 26. Nf4 g2
27. Rf2 Qxf3 28. Rxf3 Rd6 29. Ng6+ Kh7 30. Nf8+ Kh8 31. Bc5 Rd1+ 32. Kxg2 Na6
33. Be7 Nc7 34. Rf5 Rd5 35. Ng6+ Kh7 36. Ne5 Ne6 37. Rxh5+ Kg8 38. Kf3 Rd1 39.
Kg4 Rf1 40. Rf5 Rg1+ 41. Kh5 Kh7 42. Nf3 Rh1 43. Ng5+ Nxg5 44. Rxg5 b6 45. c4
a5 46. Rf5 Rh8 47. f7 Kg7+ 48. Kg4 Rg1+ 49. Kh3 Rf8 50. Bxf8+ Kxf8 51. b3 {1-0
R. Gates-qazzaqy2k/Online Chess 2009}) 14. Nxd5 cxd5 15. c4 Rh7 16. cxd5 Bxh4
17. Be4 Rh8 18. Qh2 g3 19. Qh1 Bg5 20. Bxg5 Qxg5 21. Qf3 Nf6 22. exf6+ Kf7 23.
Rae1 Qh4 24. Re2 Re8 25. Bg6+ Kxg6 26. Qd3+ Re4 27. Qxe4+ Qxe4 28. Rxe4 Bh3 29.
f7 Nd7 30. Re8 Bxf1 31. Kxf1 Kxf7 32. Rxa8 a6 33. Ra7 Nf6 34. Rxb7+ Ke8 35. Rb6
Nxd5 36. Rxh6 1-0

Btw, I think this opening exposes the limitations of computers better than just about any other.  The primary game above is an especially nice example (if I do say so myself!)  The computer thinks white has gone mad after the second piece sacrifice but by that point black is nearly busted!


 

Quote:

Yes, Rybka does seem to have some failings of its own- e.g. the failure to recognise elementary king & rook's pawn vs king as a draw (whereas even Crafty and Fritz 5.32 recognise it as drawn straightaway) and I remember seeing a Rybka 3 analysis of Blackmar-Diemer Gambit lines where it saw "best play" as being the loss of a tempo with Bb5+, c6, Bc4.  The 2.3.2 version also doesn't seem to find forced mates as quickly as Fritz 10.

I'm not really a die-hard computer analyst (or for that matter a Mason or Vienna Gambit practicioner, the latter arising via transposition if Black plays 3...Nc6, though I do occasionally face these lines with Black)- this is really an academic interest in chaotic gambit lines, and I only really tend to update my commercial chess applications every few years or so.  I also think there are certain situations where no computer really handles "compensation for sacrificed material" correctly, so I don't always trust their assessments.

I think White could feasibly have a lot of fun with the Mason Gambit outside of correspondence play and high-level OTB play, judging by the chaotic nature of the resulting positions, but have serious doubts about its viability (other than as a surprise weapon) otherwise.   I think the same is probably true of the Vienna Gambit and associated Hamppe-Allgaier/4.d4 lines that were discussed earlier (I found no clear route to equality for White against your 8...f3 by the way), though I maintain the view that Black has to tread a narrower tightrope in those lines in order to hope for an advantage.

TalJechin wrote on 10/30/10 at 22:54:47:

As the game develops opportunties will arise, yes sure but I thought we try here to search for the truth. If you search for a playable position for OTB then almost anything is ok. Just have a look at the games of Magnus Carlsen and you will see that he often gets away with a lot of shaky opening experiments even against worldclass players in official games.

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nc3 Nc6 4. d4 Qh4+ 5. Ke2 b6 6. Qd2 Ba6+ 7. Kd1 Bxf1 8.Nf3 Qh5 9. Rxf1 g5 10. Nd5 O-O-O 11.a4!? (Interesting but I don't believe that this new move changes the evaluation.) f5 12.exf5 Qf7 13.Nc3 Qxf5 14.a5 b5 15.d5 b4 (15... h6 16.Qe2 Nb4 17.Nd4 Qg6! must also be better for black because now 18.Ndxb5 fails on Re8 which wasn't possible with 17... Qf6. Of course there is still 18.Qxb5 but the complications after c6 favour black. I find b4 more professional, not trying to win now but being satisfied with a nice endgameadvantage which arises after ...) 16.Qd3 Qxd3 17.cxd3 Ne7 and I estimate the chances 50/50 between draw and a black win.

SWJediknight wrote on 10/28/10 at 10:29:50:

You corrected some typos but made again some new ones. Concerning 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nc3 Qh4+ 4.Ke2 Ne7! (I didn't look at this move before but this looks very interesting and a bit better than Qe7 or d5. I am not going to say that this is theoretically better than 3... Nc6 but it must be a bit simpler way to achieve some advantage for black.) 5.Nf3 Qh5 6.d4 g5 7.Kf2 d6 8.Bc4 (Maybe here is a bit better 8.h4 but black must also then be better.) 

A) 8...Bg7 9.h4 g4 10.Ng5 0-0 11. Ne2 (This looks a bit better than 11.Bxf4 and 11.Kg1 which are close to losing) h6!? (g3+ is also possible) 12.Nxf4 g3+ 13.Kxg3 Qxd1 14.Rxd1 hxg5 15.hxg5 and black must have the better chances but it is still a game.

B) 8...g4 (My favourite) 9.Ne1 Qh4+ 10.Kf1 Bh6 (Certainly not the only move for black but looks to me the most reasonable one.) 11.Nd3 f3 12.Nf4 (I prefer the known move over your attempt 12.Bxh6 fxg2+ 13.Kxg2 Qh3+ 14.Kg1 Qxh6 and i don't see how white can get anything against f7 which means that he is a pawn down with open king and a horrible rook on h1.) Ng6 (Not sure if this is really the best. Fxg2+, Kd8, Bxf4 are all decent tries for the advantage.) 13.g3 (A classical move in the kingsgambit and looks to me more interesting than the played 13.Nfd5) Qd8 14. Nh5 and again black probably still comes out on top but white isn't without counterplay. I am thinking of later h3 blowing up the pawns, playing on the boulevard c1-h6, ...

TalJechin wrote on 10/26/10 at 17:39:04:

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nc3 Nc6 4. d4 Qh4+ 5. Ke2 b6 6. Qd2 Ba6+ 7. Kd1 Bxf1 8.Nf3 Qh5 9. Rxf1 g5 10. Nd5 O-O-O 11. Qe2 f5! (This is clearly better than my initial very superficial analysis. Although after 11...Kb7 12.a4 a6! is likely a small improvement on your analysis) 12.a4 (One of the many choices) fxe4 13.Qxe4 Nge7 (a5 is another way for advantage but I prefer this one which is very direct and makes clear that whites king in the center is a liability.) 14.a5 Qg6! This neutralises whites attack while keeping the extra pawn so black must be clearly better.

Well, that 7.g4 is an interesting approach, but White will probably never get to full compensation. 7...fxg3 8.Kg1 might be a slight improvement, with good compensation unless Black finds 8...g2! 9.Bxg2 g4 10.Se1 when it's not so fun with the rook buried on h1.

So, in blitz I'd probably prefer 8.Kg2 g4 9.Ne1 gxh2 10.Rxh2 and at least white has active pieces...

SWJediknight wrote on 10/26/10 at 17:10:10:

Rybka still claims in all variations equalty for white. I have even the feeling that whites play can be improved on several points but I am not going to search for eventual improvements because I don't consider Qe7 as the most critical test and futher I don't like 7...d4 and 9...g5

TalJechin wrote on 10/26/10 at 14:36:58:

I agree that 4.d4 is by far the more consistent approach after choosing 3.Nc3, and probably objectively no worse than the Hamppe-Allgaier approach- maybe the H-A-G analysis would be best continued in a separate thread?  

The direct link to Gary Lane's article is here:
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/lane138.pdf
...and it's where I first stumbled upon 4...Ne7!?.  Gary Lane's suggested line can be reached via transposition after 5.Nf3 Qh5 6.d4 g5 7.Kf2 d6 8.Bc4 Bg7 9.h4.  I think Black probably comes out on top in the complications following 9...g4! 10.Ng5 0-0 (10...g3+ 11.Ke1 Qxd1+ 12.Kxd1 Bg4+ 12.Be2 h6 13.Bxg4 hxg5) 11.Bxf4 h6 12.Nxf7 Nbc6 or 11.Kg1 h6 12.Nh3 Bxd4+ 13.Qxd4 gxh3 14.Bxf4, though the resulting positions are very messy in all cases.

An alternative for Black is 9...g4 10.Ne1 Qh4+ 11.Ke1 Bh6 12.Bxh6 fxg2+ 13.Kxg2 Qh3+ 14.Kg1 Qh6, with the same result- very messy, but perhaps slightly advantageous for Black.  Meanwhile, I can't find any improvements for Black before move 9.

So I'm afraid I can't see a way for White to prove full compensation, but on the other hand, White does get the desired messy positions, attacking chances and at worst just a small theoretical disadvantage.

Brabo posted the following earlier:
Quote:


Fritz 10 suggests 12...Bg7 13.Qe2+ (else 13...0-0) 13...Kf8 14.Bxc7 Nd7 15.Bd6+ Kg8 16.Nf3 (or 16.Qe8+ Nf8 17.Nf3 Qxa2) 16...Nf6 17.Bc5 Bd7 (17...Qxa2 18.c4 Qa4+ 19.Qc2 =), and assesses the positions as -/+.  I think the real truth probably lies in between what Fritz and Rybka say- messy but probably slightly advantageous to Black.

Hadron wrote on 10/26/10 at 11:12:30:


I did a search of my KG-database, and there seems to be two ideas for white, either 5.Nf3 Qh5 6.Kf2 g5 7.g4 - which goes back to a corr game from 1931. Or 6.d4 g5 7.Kf2 d6 8.Bc4 where white has achieved a 50% score in three games.

I have only joined stuff from my database, so maybe it won't stand up to Brabo's computer's lines, we may soon see...

As for the main discussion, it seems much more in the spirit of the Mason to answer 3...Nc6 with 4.d4 so that White will remain in the kind of position he chose from the start. 

Brabo's b6 line could perhaps be met by Tim Nagely's Qd2!? see the last game in the pgn I've attached.

My latest check-up on the lines suggests that either the whole 8...f3 line is indeed better for Black, or that 11.Bf2 isn't White's best.  I'll have a look at possible 10th/11th move tries later including MNb's ideas and Brabo's replies when I have time, but for now, a summary of why I no longer trust 11.Bf2.

Fritz 10 still gives 12.Bg2 Qg8 13.Qe2 Ke8 14.0-0-0 Kd8 as equal, but it looks to me like a classic case of a computer mis-assessing the position; White has central control but I can't see what White can do with it.  Fritz also gives 12.Be2 as close to equal but I think it has a similar objection; the bishop isn't well-placed there.

12.Bc4+ is insufficient after 12...Ke8, as none of White's alternatives to 13.f4 work (13.Qe2 gxf3 14.Qxf3 Bg4 15.Qf4 Qd7!).  In the main line 16...Bf5!, as correctly given, is initially underestimated by Fritz but looks convincing, e.g. 17.Qe2 should be met by 17...Kf8 and if 18.Be6 Bxe6 19.Qxe6 then simply 19...Qc8.  Also 12.Rg1 h5, e.g. 13.Qd2 Ke8 14.Bc4 Nd7 renewing the threat of ...Bxh4+, doesn't quite work for White.   12.Qe2 seems to be best met by the irritating 12...Nb4 rather than the immediate 12...gxf3 13.Qxf3 Bg4 14.Qf4 followed by 15.Bb5 or 15.Bc4+ which gives White compensation.  The idea of ...Nb4 is to prevent ...gxf3 from being easily met by Qxf3 and I think Black ends up with the edge here as well.

SWJediknight wrote on 10/24/10 at 13:20:26:

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.d4 f3! 9.gxf3 Be7 10.Be3 d6 11.Bf2 Nf6 12.Bg2 Qg8 13.Qe2 Ke8! It seems you didn't grasp my Qg8 idea which is a Loyd Turton. This terms comes from the problem world. I've been a  trained solver and composer in the past of chessproblems and studies. I let you look it up on wikipedia for what it stands.

Quote:

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.d4 f3! 9.gxf3 Be7 10.Be3 d6 11.Bf2 Nf6 12.Bc4+ Ke8 13.f4 Nxe4 (Already indicated by micawber. Also indicated immediately by Fritz 11 and Rybka so unless I miss something very simple, time to upgrade Fritz 10.) 14.Qd3 d5 15.Bxd5 Nd6 16.0-0-0 Kf8 or Bf5 both with advantage for black.

Quote:


1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.d4 f3! 9.gxf3 Be7 10.Be3 d6 11.Bf2 Nf6 12.Bc4+ Kg7 13.Qd2 d5!? (Rf8, Rh7 are interesting alternatives to play for an advantage but today my preference goes to d5.) 14.exd5 Na5 15.Bd3 Nxd5 16.0-0-0 Bb4 and in this razorsharp position black seems to have the better from the complications.

Quote:


But what if Black plays 13...Nxe4 (14.Nxe4,d5) which seems to make an inroad on White's compensation....

MNb wrote on 10/22/10 at 00:03:34:

I've played 6 years correspondence but gave it up in 2004 because to play on the level that I wanted (my careerrecord ended at + 16, = 4, -0 with several victories against + 2400 players) , requests full dedication and I concluded that I was missing too many other things due to correspondence. Correspondence was also damaging my OTB chess. Only after I stopped or at the end when few work was needed in the remaining cc games, I was able to prepare properly for OTB and develop my general understanding of chess. This forum is a relaxed form for me to do some analytical work without the need to have it perfect from the first time as is needed in correspondence and without the pressure of having to reply within a certain timeframe. Also a strong point of this forum compared with correspondence is the interaction. Maybe you have different experiences but I never had any sharing of ideas and analysis with opponents after a game. In general my enthousiasm has cooled down with correspondence.

Concering Bc4+. Personally I think white should wait with it so blacks king stays on the weak f7 spot. However I doubt this can be done successfully without creating other disadvantages.

MNb wrote on 10/20/10 at 00:17:58:

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.d4 f3! 9.gxf3 Be7 10.Be3 d6 11.Kd2 Nf6 of course and you tell me if white has something else than returning to my earlier mentioned variations with Bc4+.

Quote:

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.d4 f3! 9.gxf3 Be7 10.Be3 d6 11.Bc4+ Kg7 12.Qe2 Bxh4+ (Here it is ok because white would otherwise get too easy 0-0-0 and white also doesn't have the often very annoying Qg1 here) 13. Kd2 Bf6 14.Qf2 Na5 15. Bd3 c5 16.Nd5 cxd4 (Probably the best although I doubt that white can equalise either after Bxd4. Black is afterall a piece up which is a lot.) 17.Bf4 Nc6 (Using the free black squares) 18. Raf1 Ne5 19.fxg4 Be6 20.Kc1 Nxd3+ 21.cxd3 Bxd5 22.exd5 and after these massive exchanges blacks extra piece is likely to be decisive.)
 
Quote:

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.d4 f3! 9.gxf3 Be7 10.Be3 d6 11.Bc4+ Ke8 12.f4!? (Interesting but a bit slow and it also closes at least temporarily the f and g files which are often necessary for finding the compensation) Bxh4+ (Probably the best now that the Qg1 idea isn't so menacing anymore) 13.Kd2 Bf6 14.Qg1 Na5 (There are other ideas e.g. with Nge7 but I prefer this idea because now black gets nice counterplay) 15.Bd3 c5! (A strong pawnsacrifice to put whites king in open air too. Black can permit it. He is afterall having a piece more.) 16.dxc5 dxc5 17.Bxc5 b6 18.Bf2 Bxc3 19.bxc3 and whites e and f pawns are looking thin as compensation for the piece.

Quote:

Contrary to you, I work very methodically. Not only I review all reference games of the latest megabase but I also take a look at the latest downloads from twic, the megacorrespondence database and finally the latest downloads from iccf. I can tell you that I found 6 games with the f3 idea of which none was of much theoretical importance. In fact the whole variation is still in a very early theoretical stadium. The game Babula-Votruba, Cihak 1969 is starting with 8.Bc4+ which isnt' the same as what we are discussing here. Pollock-Gossip, Montreal 1894 concerns a completely different opening so not sure why you bring that game up unless in my database the game is wrongly published. Gallagher-Hresc, Geneve 1991 also has no direct link to my analysis because I don't sacrifice with d5.

brabo wrote on 10/19/10 at 20:21:29:
It's interesting that you postpone the check Bc4+ in order to avoid the immediate counterblow d7-d5. I do not like 11.Bf2 very much - why should that bishop be better on f2 than on e3? At the other hand - why not resist the temptation of that check on c4 once again? 11.Kd2 and only after Bxh4 12.Bc4+ and 13.Qg1.

brabo wrote on 10/19/10 at 20:21:29:

This time I don't like JediKnight's suggestion 13.Kc1 - how is Ra1 going to get into play? I propose 12.Qe2 and only after Bxh4+ (which you want to avoid) 13.Kd2. After eg Bf6 14.Qf2 Na5 15.Bd3 c5 16.Nd5 cxd4 17.Bf4 White completes his/her development by directing all pieces to the King's Wing. 16...Bxd4 17.Bxd4 cxd4 18.Raf1 shows the same idea.

brabo wrote on 10/19/10 at 20:21:29:
The same here. White does not need to play Kd2 voluntarily. I'd prefer 12.f4 Bxh4+ 13.Kd2 Bf6 14.Qg1 Nge7 15.Re1. After 12...Na5 13.Bd3 c5 Rybka suggests 14.Bf2 (after other moves ...Bxh4+ seems annoying). The idea is to complete development by castling queenside and prepare a central break. Then Black's King will be unsafe.

Anyhow, I recommend to play through the game Babula-Votruba, Cihak 1969. White had fair chances, even though Black had more or less won a tempo via 9.Bc4+ d5 10.Bxd5. There is also the golden oldie Pollock-Gossip, Montreal 1894, where White can improve with 16.Be4.

To be honest, it was the game Gallagher-Hresc, Geneve 1991 that troubled me most.

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.d4 Nf6 9.Bxf4 Bb4 10.Bd3 d6 11.0-0! and I must admit that I can't find a way to keep the advantage for black. 

So I switched my attention to my second best variation to search for a black advantage which I believe now after few days of extra analysis is the most critical test for white.

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.d4 f3! (I've seen this move mentioned in some old thread without any further analysis) 9.gxf3 Be7 10.Be3 d6 (A new idea although I must admit that the whole variation is extremely rare. Here I think black should restrict himself of taking on h4 too soon.) 11.Bc4+ and now black has

A) 11...Kg7 12.Kd2 Nf6 13.Qg1 d5! 14.Bxd5 Bb4 15.Bxc6 bxc6 16.a3 Bxc3 17.bxc3 and i've doubts about whites compensation

B) 11...Ke8 12.Kd2 Nf6 13.Qe2 Na5!? 14.Bd3 and again I've doubts about whites compensation.

brabo wrote on 10/16/10 at 17:27:54:

Because I am a poor and unsystematical analyst.

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.d4 Nf6 9.Bc4+ d5 10.Nxd5 f3 11.gxf3 Kg7 12.Be3 Na5 13.Nxf6 Nxc4 14.Nh5+ Kh7 15.Qe2 Bb4+ 16.c3 Nxe3 17.Qxe3 Rf8!
brabo wrote on 10/16/10 at 17:27:54:

Passive (counter)sacs don't have to be accepted. 18.f4 is unclear.

Typical chesspub, instead of discussing the "masion gambit" in the title, it's the Hamppe Allgaier in most replies - no wonder it's hard to find the correct threads later...

When I was a young, ambitious and aggressive player = long before computer era, I played a similar line called Steintz Gambit in several games that ran 1 e4 e5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 f4 exf4 4 d4 Qh4+ 5 Ke2 and main line was here d5 leeding to a total mess. I remember a blitz game at local club in this line where I defeated a 2000 player when my king somehow somewhow ended up at a8. I think I meet d6 in one standardtime game and b6 Nb5 Ba6 a4 in a couple of blitz games. However there was some reason why I gave up this line, fails to remember why. Perhaps I gave up Nc3 becouse of some line after Nf6 or most likely I wanted to play safer lines with white.

]1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.d4 Nf6 9.Bxf4 Bb4 10.Bd3 d6 11.Qd2 Kg7 12.0-0-0 Nxd4 13.e5 Nh5 14.Rhf1 Be6 15.exd6 Bxd6 16.Be3 Nc6 17.Be4 Be5!? 18.Qe1 Qe8 19.Bxc6 bxc6 and that extra piece on h5 is quite silent after 20.Bxh6+ Kxh6 21.Qxe5 Qg6 22.Qxc7.
Please note that I don't strive to find anything decisive for White but long term compensation. It's not my task to find a forced win.

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.d4 Nf6 9.Bc4+ d5 10.Nxd5 f3 11.gxf3 Kg7 12.Be3 Na5 13.Nxf6 Nxc4 14.Nh5+ Kg6 15.Nf4+ and White still has chances. It doesn't matter so much thatpieces are exchanged. What matters is which pieces are exchanged. In this case it's all Black's active ones.

brabo wrote on 10/16/10 at 11:27:17:

I still have to see any crushing attack against White's King in the Hamppe-Allgaier. This factor is one of White's minor worries.
Of course there is also JediKnight's 11.Qd2 to deal with.
Don't worry, I don't intend to play this in neither corr. or OTB chess. My interest is only and purely academical. As such I am happy with equality, unclear play, sufficient long term compensation and even a perpetual.

SWJediknight wrote on 10/16/10 at 13:23:57:

Rybka, after fed with the recommended moves for Black, quickly gives equality, eg 14.Bc4 Qe7 (Qxh4 15.Bg3 or Rf8 15.Bxh6+) 15.Qd2 Nd8 (to protect f7 and prepare ...Be6) 16.e5 Be6 17.d5.
At the other hand Rybka prefers 12...Ba5 at once to 12...Nh5.

[quote author=5D4D5E5D503F0 link=1208413606/11#11 date=1286993300][quote author=6F6B765958555752555B54483C0 link=1208413606/10#10 date=1286971544]There was an analysis of the Hampe-Allgaier at this thread:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1217111507/19#19   10.Bd3 is a better option for White in your first line, and that the H-A-G is currently looking unclear/equal.
[/quote]
I can't see why this is a better option for white after 10...d6.
I give one sample line (starting from move 1 just to read easier and avoid confusion) :
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.d4 Nf6 9.Bxf4 Bb4 10.Bd3 d6 (Don't see this mentioned in the old thread although it is Rybkas and Fritz first choice. So like to know what you recommend against it.) 11.Qd2 Kg7 12.h5 Nxd4 13.Bxh6+ Rxh6 14.Qg5+ and black still has a slight advantage.[/quote]

I think white should build up his attack first, if possible so I'd suggest the natural 11.0-0, something like this:

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nc3 Nc6 4. Nf3 g5 5. h4 g4 6. Ng5 h6 7. Nxf7 Kxf7 8. d4 Nf6 9. Bxf4 Bb4 10. Bd3 d6 [i][b]11. O-O[/b] Kg7 12. Ne2 Qe8 13. c3 Ba5 14. Ng3[/i] with compensation according the engine, though only at 23ply. Maybe black should prefer 12...Bxc3 13.bxc3 Qe8 though a later Bf4-d2-c3 could make the king a bit uncomfortable.

Just my 2 cents, unless it's already been mentioned somewhere...

Ooops, [quote]I think that objectively speaking White's hopes rest on my earlier suggestion, 9.Bxf4 Bb4 10.Bd3 d6 11.0-0. [/quote] just noticed this now. Anyway, I agree :)

MNb wrote on 10/15/10 at 00:37:14:

I see black being a full piece up while white has no clear attacking scheme so I bet on blacks chances. Besides
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.d4 Nf6 9.Bxf4 Bb4 10.Bd3 d6 11.Qd2 Kg7 12.0-0-0 Nxd4 13.e5 Nh5 14.Rhf1 Be6 15.exd6 Bxd6 16.Be3 Nc6 17.Be4 Be5!? (This looks easier than your 17...Ne5 to keep the advantage) 18.Qe1 Qe8 19.Bxc6 bxc6 and can't find anything decisive for white while blacks extra piece starts to talk more and more.
Quote:

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.d4 Nf6 9.Bc4+ d5 10.Nxd5 f3 11.gxf3 Kg7 12.Be3 Na5! looks again easier than your 12...Bd6 after which white has to permit some exchanges and his attack mostly runs out of steam. I am pretty sure you get a huge score with white on the board but in a high level correspondence game I estimate whites drawing chances rather slim. Besides in the Cochrane gambit whites king is safe while in this variation this is certainly less the case.

MNb wrote on 10/12/10 at 22:06:02:

Not exactly like this. White must move his pawn a bit further 11.d4, because the text enables 12...Qxh1 option, after which 13.Bxf4 Nf3+ 14.Ke2 Nf6 gives Black better chances (e.g. immediate 15.Nc7 fails 15...g5 16.Bg3 Nh5).

Re. "the opening", I meant the Hampe-Allgaier branch rather than the Mason Gambit as a whole- I hope I've made that clear!  Note that 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nc3 Nc6 transposes directly to the Vienna Gambit (1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 exf4) so if 3.Nc3 is insufficient due to 3...Nc6 so is the Vienna Gambit against 2...Nc6.

As it happens, checking MNb's lines:

(1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.d4 Nf6)

A: 9.Bxf4 Bb4 10.Bd3 d6 11.Qd2 (I prefer 11.0-0 for the reasons I gave before) 11...Kg7 12.0-0-0 Nxd4 13.e5 Nh5! indeed looks much better for Black.  

B: 9.Bc4+ d5 10.Nxd5 f3 11.gxf3 Kg7 12.Nxf6 (12.c3!?) 12...Qxf6 13.e5 (13.Be3!?) 13...Qf5 14.Be3 looks unclear/equal to me.  White now has two pawns for the piece as well as attacking chances and a strong centre.

I see Micawber also suggested 3...Qh4+ 4.Ke2 Qe7, and I found a source on it here:
http://www.kjcchess.com/gambitopeningg0.html
The conclusion of that article was quoted in Chess Monthly at a column where the late Mike Fox (a devotee of 3.Nc3) and Richard James used to comment on random stuff.  Hansen,LB: 'This game could be a serious blow to the 3.Nc3 line in the Kings Gambit.'

After 3...Qh4+ 4.Ke2 Qe7 5.d3 Nf6 6.Bxf4 d5 7.Kd2 (this is indeed probably best), Fritz 10 suggests 7...d4, e.g. 8.Nd5 Nxd5 9.exd5 g5 10.Qh5 Qb4+ 11.Kd1 Qxb2 12.Rc1, which might give an edge for Black- though admittedly it's exactly the sort of chaotic position that a 3.Nc3 aficionado would feel at home in!  Maybe you are right that 5.d3 is the best reply.

5.Kf2!? (mentioned by Micawber) might be worth a look, since the draw offer 5...Qh4+ can be met by 6.g3 fxg3+ 7.Kg2 gxh2 8.Rxh2.  I don't believe White has enough compensation here, but I imagine that fans of the line could have a lot of fun with this in rapid games.

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I agree with that assessment, both for the Hampe-Allgaier branch that arises from 3.Nc3 Nc6 and the Mason Gambit as a whole.

MNb wrote on 10/13/10 at 23:29:21:

I think black can improve in this line with 13.. Nh5 instead of 13.. Nd5 see:
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.d4 Nf6 9.Bxf4 Bb4 10.Bd3 d6 11.Qd2 Kg7 12.0-0-0 Nxd4 13.e5 Nh5 14.Rhf1 Be6 15.exd6 Bxd6 16.Be3 Nc6 and I believe blacks chances are still better.
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Also here I've some other analysis in my database.
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.d4 Nf6 9.Bc4+ d5 10.Nxd5 f3 11.gxf3 Kg7 (I believe this is stronger than your Be6) 12.Nxf6 Qxf6 13.e5 and now Qf5 as Nxe5 look very good for black.

My personal opinion is
that a safe way for black and an annoying one for white is
3.Nc3, Qh4+ 4.Ke2,Qe7!? (4...c6 as safe and sound as well)
In Bauer-Bracot 1999 things went wrong for white as early as move 5:
5.d4,Nf6 6.e5,d6 -/+.
(of course 5.d3 and 5.Kf2 are probably somewhat better, but Black is OK anyway).

As for "Wellings variation"  iso 
6....Nc6 Black can also consider 6...Bd6 7.d4,Bxf3 (7...Nc6 is now possible as well) 8.gxf (8.Kxf3?!,Qh5+ 9.Kf2,Qxd1 10.Bb5+,c6 is dubious) 8....,c6 (unclear; Grafl-Wisnewski, 2000)

SWJediknight wrote on 10/13/10 at 22:20:49:

Perhaps I can.
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.d4 Nf6 9.Bxf4 Bb4 10.Bd3 d6 11.Qd2 Kg7 and as 12.h5 leads to nothing perhaps 12.0-0-0 as Nxd4 (but 12...Nh5!?) 13.e5 Nd5 14.Bc4 Nxc3 15.Qxd4 c5 16.Qf2 Nxd1 17.Rxd1 is quite a mess.
White also can deviate at an earlier stage: 9.Bc4+ (iso 9.Bxf4) d5 10.Nxd5 f3 11.gxf3 Be6 12.fxg4 Nxe4 and my analysis leads to a forced draw. Given the poor reputation of the gambit I consider this a moral victory  .
It means that White has to play 8...Bb4 9.Bc4+ as well.

SWJediknight wrote on 10/13/10 at 22:20:49:

So Welling's play still cannot be improved after 6...Nc6 ?

SWJediknight wrote on 10/13/10 at 12:05:44:

I can't see why this is a better option for white after 10...d6.
I give one sample line (starting from move 1 just to read easier and avoid confusion) :
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nf3 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.d4 Nf6 9.Bxf4 Bb4 10.Bd3 d6 (Don't see this mentioned in the old thread although it is Rybkas and Fritz first choice. So like to know what you recommend against it.) 11.Qd2 Kg7 12.h5 Nxd4 13.Bxh6+ Rxh6 14.Qg5+ and black still has a slight advantage.

MNb wrote on 10/12/10 at 22:06:02:

I recommend 3...Nc6 as a way to get a plus for black. A few sample lines:
4.Nf3 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.d4 Nf6 9.Bxf4 Bb4 10.e5 Ne4 11.Bc4+ d5 12.exd6(e.p.)+ Kg7 13.dxc7 Nxc3 14.0-0 and still small plus for black

4.d4 Qh4+ 5.Ke2 b6 6.a4 Ba6+ 7.Nb5 0-0-0 8.Nf3 Qg4 9.h3 Qg3 10.Qe1 Re8 11.Qxg3 fxg3 12.Kd1 Nf6 13.Nxa7 Kb7 14.Nxc6 and still small plus for black

Sure no easy stuff but at this stage I call the opening dubious for white.

Besides 3.. Qh4+ is certainly not better for white. Black has after 4.Ke2 at least 4... d5 and 4... Qe7 as acceptable continuations.

He didn't, he covered the Allgaier, Hampe-Allgaier and Pierce Gambits.

John Emms in Play the Open Games as Black gave the 3...Qh4+ 4.Ke2 d5 line as unclear/equal, and suggested 4...d6 and 4...Qe7 as alternatives but did not show a definite advantage for Black.

I believe it would be theoretical news indeed if White were better after 3. Nc3 Qh4+.

Yes, there is a book in German by Bangiev. Maybe one can find it in other languages as well.

I'm afraid it's not playable due to the 3...Qh4+ line..