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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Good Anti-KID systems (Read 8288 times)
Legion XIX
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Re: Good Anti-KID systems
Reply #23 - 04/27/08 at 07:44:59
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Note that in the line ErictheRed mentions, named the Brinckmann Variation, 6...c6?! is inferior because after 7.e3 White has an improved Schlecter Slav because his bishop is outside the pawn chain.

I suppose one of many reasons many White players prefer 4.e4 to 4.Nf3 is to avoid any transpositions to a Grunfeld line which is outside their repertoire (for example, if he wishes to play the Bc4 Exchange Variation). However, I would think that this only applies for high rated players who are usually the focus of the opponent's preparation before their tournament games.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Good Anti-KID systems
Reply #22 - 04/25/08 at 14:58:19
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Chevalier wrote on 04/20/08 at 23:58:36:
After 5.Bf4, 5...d5!? transposes to a Grunfeld, albeit a variation which is considered slightly better for White. Doesn't Black often go for a quick ...c5 break against the Smyslov system, possibly even on move 5? Note that 6.Bf6 Bf6 7.Ne4?! runs into 7...Qa5! with advantage to Black.


I actually have more faith in 5.Bf4 than 5.Bg5, though both are playable and you can certainly mix and match.  Against 5.Bf4 d5, I recommend 6.Rc1, which seems fairly rare below master level.  After the typical 6...c5 7.dc Qa5 8.cd Ne4, White has 9.Be5! and Black is basically busted.  Of course there's plenty of theory on this Grunfeld line...
  
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Patzel
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Re: Good Anti-KID systems
Reply #21 - 04/25/08 at 13:40:56
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I think after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.f3!? is an interesting alternative.

You don´t have problems with the Grüfeld, because you castle long and attack and after 3...g6 4.e4 d6 5.Ne2!? 0-0 6.Nc3 you have Sämisch, but not the problem with your knight on g1 or b1, because he goes to a3, after Black plays ...c5 d5 ...b5 and you can make short castle and have an interesting position, which a Kings Indian player maybe disliked.
  
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The_Shah
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Re: Good Anti-KID systems
Reply #20 - 04/21/08 at 22:36:49
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Stigma wrote on 04/21/08 at 13:01:34:
[quote author=MNb link=1208519468/0#12 date=1208743430]
Anyway, after 6.e3 White scores 68% on my database, but this is partly explained by playing strength; White only performs a normal +29. So we can conclude that this line is often chosen by strong positional players wanting to outplay weaker opponents, without too much sharp theory to worry about. I don't currently play it myself, I prefer something a bit sharper like the Sämisch or the Gligoric.


Indeed, the Gligoric is a good Anti-KID variation, particularly if White dislikes the positions arising after 7.0-0 Nc6 8.d5 Ne7. In fact, GM Shipov plays the Gligoric as his main defence to the KID, with success.
  
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Re: Good Anti-KID systems
Reply #19 - 04/21/08 at 22:33:30
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Legion XIX wrote on 04/21/08 at 08:36:18:
When you are referring to "Good Anti-KID systems", I am assuming that you are looking for a variation of equal strength to the main lines, but with somewhat less theory and more practical advantages.

Although the Four Pawns Attack is one of the main lines against the KID, it is dangerous in the hands of an aggressive player, and GMs such as Vaisser and Moskalenko have been very successful with this approach. Furthermore, a study of Konikowski's book on the Four Pawns Attack should give you a very good basis for playing the variation successfully in practice with both colours. It also gives you a dangerous system against the Benoni, by the way.


There is your answer, John Hall! Although I don't own the book (I just recalled the name: "The Fearsome Four Pawns Attack") myself, it has received a number of good reviews. Konikowski is very encyclopedic in his coverage, and the book is jampacked with novelties.
  
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John Hall
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Re: Good Anti-KID systems
Reply #18 - 04/21/08 at 19:49:09
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Markovich wrote on 04/21/08 at 17:11:12:
Legion XIX wrote on 04/21/08 at 08:36:18:
When you are referring to "Good Anti-KID systems", I am assuming that you are looking for a variation of equal strength to the main lines, but with somewhat less theory and more practical advantages.

Although the Four Pawns Attack is one of the main lines against the KID, it is dangerous in the hands of an aggressive player, and GMs such as Vaisser and Moskalenko have been very successful with this approach. Furthermore, a study of Konikowski's book on the Four Pawns Attack should give you a very good basis for playing the variation successfully in practice with both colours. It also gives you a dangerous system against the Benoni, by the way.


I have to second this, since the 4PA has been my main rejoinder to the KID and the Modern Benoni for a long time.  But it is quite theoretical.

Perhaps the very last move I would select is 5.f3, particularly since the advent of Black's ...c5 gambit.



Not looking for anyone's secrets- but I also have been a 4PA player for a while, and I have been having horrible results in the absolute main line starting with ...Re8. It seems to me that according to the two books on the subject, that it leads directly to a draw- or if white deviates- a worse position for him. There aren't even that many moves to remember- a player I outrated by 400 points memorized the draw line against me for a game last year...

Could one of you provide a hint as to the way toward a playable game for white? The Nd2 systems? d6 or Nxe5 in the main line? All these lines seem drawn or better for black to me...
  
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Markovich
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Re: Good Anti-KID systems
Reply #17 - 04/21/08 at 17:11:12
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Legion XIX wrote on 04/21/08 at 08:36:18:
When you are referring to "Good Anti-KID systems", I am assuming that you are looking for a variation of equal strength to the main lines, but with somewhat less theory and more practical advantages.

Although the Four Pawns Attack is one of the main lines against the KID, it is dangerous in the hands of an aggressive player, and GMs such as Vaisser and Moskalenko have been very successful with this approach. Furthermore, a study of Konikowski's book on the Four Pawns Attack should give you a very good basis for playing the variation successfully in practice with both colours. It also gives you a dangerous system against the Benoni, by the way.


I have to second this, since the 4PA has been my main rejoinder to the KID and the Modern Benoni for a long time.  But it is quite theoretical.

Perhaps the very last move I would select is 5.f3, particularly since the advent of Black's ...c5 gambit.
  

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Stigma
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Re: Good Anti-KID systems
Reply #16 - 04/21/08 at 13:01:34
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MNb wrote on 04/21/08 at 02:03:50:
Is that also true including games transposing via the Benoni? I mean 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.d5 exd5 5.cxd5 d6 6.Nf3 g6 7.Bg5 Bg7 and 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 d6 4.Nc3 g6 5.Nf3 Bg7 6.Bg5 0-0.
Or did you only include games with 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bg5 without x...c5 y.d5 ?


Actually, I took as my starting point the position after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Nf3 d6 5.Bg5 0-0 6.e3 (to avoid missing games where Black played ...d6 and ...0-0 in reverse order) and now Black can do whatever he please. Plenty of games with c5 on move 6, and of course there will be Benoni transpositions, but I haven't studied this in detail.

Anyway, after 6.e3 White scores 68% on my database, but this is partly explained by playing strength; White only performs a normal +29. So we can conclude that this line is often chosen by strong positional players wanting to outplay weaker opponents, without too much sharp theory to worry about. I don't currently play it myself, I prefer something a bit sharper like the Sämisch or the Gligoric.
  

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Re: Good Anti-KID systems
Reply #15 - 04/21/08 at 08:59:18
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Lines with h3 gave me a headache as black. And not only me...

[Event "Moscow Aeroflot op-A1"]
[White "Romanov,Evgeny"]
[Black "Khalifman,Alexander"]
[Result "1-0"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.h3 0-0 6.Bg5 Qe8 7.Bd3 e5 8.d5 Na6 9.g4 c6 10.Nge2 Nc5 11.Bc2 cxd5 12.exd5 e4 13.Nb5 Qe7 14.Qd2 Bd7 15.Nbc3 Rfe8 16.Kf1 a6 17.a4 Rac8 18.Ng3 Qd8 19.Kg2 Qb6 20.a5 Qb4 21.Ncxe4 Qxb2 22.Nxd6 h6 23.Rhb1 Qxa1 24.Rxa1 hxg5
25.Nxe8 Nxe8 26.Re1 Bf6 27.f4 Nd6 28.fxg5 Nxc4 29.Qf4 Bc3 30.Re7  1-0

  

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Legion XIX
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Re: Good Anti-KID systems
Reply #14 - 04/21/08 at 08:36:18
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When you are referring to "Good Anti-KID systems", I am assuming that you are looking for a variation of equal strength to the main lines, but with somewhat less theory and more practical advantages.

Although the Four Pawns Attack is one of the main lines against the KID, it is dangerous in the hands of an aggressive player, and GMs such as Vaisser and Moskalenko have been very successful with this approach. Furthermore, a study of Konikowski's book on the Four Pawns Attack should give you a very good basis for playing the variation successfully in practice with both colours. It also gives you a dangerous system against the Benoni, by the way.
  
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Re: Good Anti-KID systems
Reply #13 - 04/21/08 at 08:29:00
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Congrats on getting over 4500 posts MNb!!

As for the Torre, one major advantage of it is that in practice Black often doesn't know what he is doing, and a well-prepared player could pocket a lot of points. However, it would probably only work as a surprise weapon.
  

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Re: Good Anti-KID systems
Reply #12 - 04/21/08 at 02:03:50
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Stigma wrote on 04/20/08 at 15:13:45:
With 5.Bg5 this would be what is known as the "Smyslov System". Actually, I have been suprised to find that, statistically, this is White's very best-scoring line against the King's Indian

Is that also true including games transposing via the Benoni? I mean 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.d5 exd5 5.cxd5 d6 6.Nf3 g6 7.Bg5 Bg7 and 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 d6 4.Nc3 g6 5.Nf3 Bg7 6.Bg5 0-0.
Or did you only include games with 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bg5 without x...c5 y.d5 ?
  

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Re: Good Anti-KID systems
Reply #11 - 04/20/08 at 23:58:36
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After 5.Bf4, 5...d5!? transposes to a Grunfeld, albeit a variation which is considered slightly better for White. Doesn't Black often go for a quick ...c5 break against the Smyslov system, possibly even on move 5? Note that 6.Bf6 Bf6 7.Ne4?! runs into 7...Qa5! with advantage to Black.
  

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Stigma
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Re: Good Anti-KID systems
Reply #10 - 04/20/08 at 15:13:45
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ErictheRed wrote on 04/19/08 at 20:27:33:
...
For something more offbeat, you might try 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Nf3 0-0, and now either 5.Bf4!? or 5.Bg5!?.  They don't look like much, but the idea is to play 6.e3 and get a reversed KIA a couple tempi up and with the Bishop already outside of the pawn chain.


With 5.Bg5 this would be what is known as the "Smyslov System". Actually, I have been suprised to find that, statistically, this is White's very best-scoring line against the King's Indian (perhaps excluding the very top level where the Classical, Gligoric and Fianchetto rule)! I think many King's Indian players are annoyed when White doesn't setup the broad 3- or 4-pawn centre they are used to playing against.

The Smyslov is of course rather calm and strategic, aiming to limit Black's aggression and establish a sound position without weaknesses, so I wouldn't recommend it to very aggressive players. It is often considered innocuous in the theory books, but thankfully this is not the case on ChessPublishing where Mikhalevsky takes it very seriously indeed! Smiley
  

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Re: Good Anti-KID systems
Reply #9 - 04/20/08 at 14:55:12
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lnn2 wrote on 04/20/08 at 14:04:37:
Consider this line, suspect White's 7th move not innocuous:

M.Carlsen-I.Cheparinov, World Chess Cup 2007
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bg5 Bg7 4.Nbd2 d6 5.e4 O-O 6.c3 c5 7.dxc5
dxc5 8.Bc4 Nc6 9.O-O Qc7 10.Qe2 h6 11.Bh4 Nh5 12.Rfe1 Bg4
13.Qe3 g5 14.Bg3 Nxg3 15.hxg3 b6 16.Nh2 Bh5 17.g4 Bg6 18.g3
Rad8 19.f4 Nd4 20.Rac1 b5 21.Bf1 gxf4 22.gxf4 Ne6 23.e5 f5
24.exf6 Rxf6 25.f5 Ng5 26.fxg6 Re6 27.Qf2 Be5 28.Rxe5 Qxe5
29.Ndf3 Nxf3+ 30.Nxf3 Qf4 31.Re1 Rxe1 32.Nxe1 Qxf2+ 33.Kxf2
Rd2+ 34.Ke3 Rd1 35.Ke2 Ra1 36.Bg2 c4 37.a3 Rb1 38.Be4 Rxb2+
39.Nc2 Kg7 40.Ke3 Rb3 41.Kd2 Kf6 42.Nd4 Rxa3 43.Nxb5 Ra5
44.Nc7 Kg7 45.Ne6+ Kh8 46.Ke3 Ra1 47.Kd4 a5 48.Bc6 a4 49.Be8
Rg1 50.g5 a3 51.Bf7 Rxg5 52.Nxg5 hxg5 53.Bxc4 Kg7 54.Kd3 Kxg6
55.Kc2 g4 56.Kb3 Kf5 57.Kxa3 g3 58.Bf1 e5 59.Kb3 Kf4 60.Bg2
Ke3 61.Kc4 Kf2 62.Be4 1-0


Well, that's a main line of the Torre, and 7. dc followed by Bc4 has been the standard continuation there for decades.
  
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