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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Smyslov System (Bg5 and e3) (Read 19992 times)
OrangeCounty
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Re: Smyslov System (Bg5 and e3)
Reply #18 - 01/25/14 at 00:45:11
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The Smyslov system is okay but doesn't offer White very much; it usually ends up giving up a tempo with e2-e3-e4 when Black doesn't advance in the center.  I think that Black is pretty much okay if he just plays ...d6, ...c5, answers d4-d5 with Benko ideas and trades anything he can except the Bg7.

If you play ...c5 fast enough you might even spook somebody into dxc5.
  
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eberthkbg
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Re: Smyslov System (Bg5 and e3)
Reply #17 - 01/14/14 at 19:37:53
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Thenazgul wrote on 10/07/13 at 16:16:50:
ErictheRed wrote on 10/07/13 at 16:11:43:
Thenazgul wrote on 10/07/13 at 15:48:24:
on a side note, as a KID player, from the black side the recommended variation against the smyslov is with c5 and not d6, which means,

e4 Nf6 d4 g6 nc3 bg7 nf3 0-0 bg5 c5
and now e3 cxd exd d5!
check the statistics and ull see black is doing great!


I'm guessing you meant 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Nf3 0-0 5.Bg5 c5, when White should play 6.d5 instead of 6.e3.


d5 is the main line sure, but was just talking about the e3 setup mentioned in the initial post!
anyway even after d5, white is scoring 51% which is good for black.



I just won a game in the toronto ontario hart house chess tournament using this line black ^^ Its in bologans book and I have never lost a game to the smyslov system or the line with bishop f4 where you play extremely similar  I E 1 d4 ..kf6 2. c4 g6 3. kc3 Bg7   4. kf3  0-0 ( d6 is possible but i always feel its less exact because if bishop g5 you cannot play D5! in one shot ) 5  Bf4 D6 ,6 h3 c5 7 e3, cxd, 8 exd, D5! ..... works just as good against this line except theres no gambit !

Yes whites best in these lines is d5 for sure .then black should play in the spirit of the Benoni defence, If its the bishop g5 line and for bishop f4 he can do the same and sometimes entering  benko gambit style positions is best
  
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Re: Smyslov System (Bg5 and e3)
Reply #16 - 10/07/13 at 22:52:57
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I was under the impression Black's best defence was to kick the Bishop then play ...c5, as in Akobian--Perelshteyn, which went: 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. c4 Bg7 4. Nc3 d6 5. Bg5 h6 6. Bh4 g5 7. Bg3 Nh5 8. e3 c5 9. d5. Is this (still) so, and are there good ideas for either side in this position, based perhaps on delaying castling? Perelsteyn actually played 9 ...Qa5!? and won, but is there anything wrong with the normal 9 ...0-0?
  
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Thenazgul
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Re: Smyslov System (Bg5 and e3)
Reply #15 - 10/07/13 at 16:16:50
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ErictheRed wrote on 10/07/13 at 16:11:43:
Thenazgul wrote on 10/07/13 at 15:48:24:
on a side note, as a KID player, from the black side the recommended variation against the smyslov is with c5 and not d6, which means,

e4 Nf6 d4 g6 nc3 bg7 nf3 0-0 bg5 c5
and now e3 cxd exd d5!
check the statistics and ull see black is doing great!


I'm guessing you meant 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Nf3 0-0 5.Bg5 c5, when White should play 6.d5 instead of 6.e3.


d5 is the main line sure, but was just talking about the e3 setup mentioned in the initial post!
anyway even after d5, white is scoring 51% which is good for black.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Smyslov System (Bg5 and e3)
Reply #14 - 10/07/13 at 16:11:43
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Thenazgul wrote on 10/07/13 at 15:48:24:
on a side note, as a KID player, from the black side the recommended variation against the smyslov is with c5 and not d6, which means,

e4 Nf6 d4 g6 nc3 bg7 nf3 0-0 bg5 c5
and now e3 cxd exd d5!
check the statistics and ull see black is doing great!


I'm guessing you meant 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Nf3 0-0 5.Bg5 c5, when White should play 6.d5 instead of 6.e3.
  
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Re: Smyslov System (Bg5 and e3)
Reply #13 - 10/07/13 at 15:48:24
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on a side note, as a KID player, from the black side the recommended variation against the smyslov is with c5 and not d6, which means,

e4 Nf6 d4 g6 nc3 bg7 nf3 0-0 bg5 c5
and now e3 cxd exd d5!
check the statistics and ull see black is doing great!
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Smyslov System (Bg5 and e3)
Reply #12 - 08/30/13 at 14:30:43
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Thanks Pantu, that was very informative.
  
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Re: Smyslov System (Bg5 and e3)
Reply #11 - 08/30/13 at 08:00:56
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Quote:
Chessbase Magazine 126 has a survey by Breutigam, recommending a repertoire for white and covering all variations. I have used this to prepare the variation and have played it a few times: I would recommend this if you can get it.

He also did a survey in CBM 125 of the related benoni line 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3 exd5 5.cxd5 d6 6.Nf3 g6 7.Bg5 which has some move order subtleties, mainly due to the delayed castling.  This is not necessary if you play the KID move order, as black gets an inferior version if he plays that way.

Regards some lines: Gallagher recommended the following as played by Smyslov: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Nf3 d6 5.Bg5 0-0 6.e3 c5 7.Be2 h6 8.Bh4 Bf5! when Qb6 comes and various threats means white has to be careful.  I managed to lose here as black after catching white in the trap, but I couldn't remember the details.

However Yusupov started played 7.d5! at some point in the 90s and this turns out to be quite good for white.  I had a game with 7...Bf5 8.Bd3! Bxd3 9.Qxd3 then castled, Nf3-d2, f2-f4 etc and eventually won with a nice attack although black helped a bit.

I'm slightly put off by the a6+c6+b5 lines and also ones where he delays ...d7-d6 in favour of castling and playing Benko style e.g. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Nf3 0-0 5.Bg5 c5 6.d5 h6 7.Bh4 b5!? IIRC Radjabov has played this way and Breutigam also suggests this way.

Chesslecture.com also had a series of videos by Bill Paschall I think but the CBM 126 survey is enough.


Funny, I had misremembered the Gallagher line (top book, but don't have it any more) and just played this a few times:

1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. Nf3 d6
5. Bg5 Bf5
6. e3 Ne4

with...c5 to follow.

Well, it's chess, and I won.

Thanks for the CBM 126 recommendation too! That's great.

And as noted earlier, Akobian games on chessgames.com
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?playercomp=white&pid=51148&eco=E61&title...'s+Indian+(E61)+as+White+

(this is code E61, alongside assorted other minor KID stuff).
  
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Re: Smyslov System (Bg5 and e3)
Reply #10 - 08/30/13 at 07:28:55
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Chessbase Magazine 126 has a survey by Breutigam, recommending a repertoire for white and covering all variations. I have used this to prepare the variation and have played it a few times: I would recommend this if you can get it.

He also did a survey in CBM 125 of the related benoni line 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3 exd5 5.cxd5 d6 6.Nf3 g6 7.Bg5 which has some move order subtleties, mainly due to the delayed castling.  This is not necessary if you play the KID move order, as black gets an inferior version if he plays that way.

Regards some lines: Gallagher recommended the following as played by Smyslov: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Nf3 d6 5.Bg5 0-0 6.e3 c5 7.Be2 h6 8.Bh4 Bf5! when Qb6 comes and various threats means white has to be careful.  I managed to lose here as black after catching white in the trap, but I couldn't remember the details.

However Yusupov started played 7.d5! at some point in the 90s and this turns out to be quite good for white.  I had a game with 7...Bf5 8.Bd3! Bxd3 9.Qxd3 then castled, Nf3-d2, f2-f4 etc and eventually won with a nice attack although black helped a bit.

I'm slightly put off by the a6+c6+b5 lines and also ones where he delays ...d7-d6 in favour of castling and playing Benko style e.g. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Nf3 0-0 5.Bg5 c5 6.d5 h6 7.Bh4 b5!? IIRC Radjabov has played this way and Breutigam also suggests this way.

Chesslecture.com also had a series of videos by Bill Paschall I think but the CBM 126 survey is enough.
  
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Re: Smyslov System (Bg5 and e3)
Reply #9 - 08/30/13 at 07:18:25
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There was a series of articles in some Chessbase Magazines i recall...
  
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Re: Smyslov System (Bg5 and e3)
Reply #8 - 08/30/13 at 06:56:08
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kylemeister wrote on 08/29/13 at 20:15:57:
Way back in '02 there was a Yearbook article about some of the ...c5 stuff.


Thanks! Searched, and it is NIC Yearbook 64.
'Not so innocuous' by Kirk Langeweg, notes by Ivan Sokolov,  pp. 203-208.

Covers just ...c5 lines.
  
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Re: Smyslov System (Bg5 and e3)
Reply #7 - 08/29/13 at 20:15:57
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Way back in '02 there was a Yearbook article about some of the ...c5 stuff.
  
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Re: Smyslov System (Bg5 and e3)
Reply #6 - 08/29/13 at 19:21:09
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Phil Adams wrote on 08/29/13 at 19:02:13:
It's not a critical test of the KID, but it's perfectly playable and a player well-versed in its ideas and finesses should do well with it. I suspect that in reply ...c5 systems are more combative than ...e5 systems.


I think ...c5, often combined with ...Qb6, is Black's best try to take advantage of White's Bishop going to g5 so early and then being cut off from the queenside by the pawn on e3.  I'm pretty sure that Smyslov himself played this way as Black.
  
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Re: Smyslov System (Bg5 and e3)
Reply #5 - 08/29/13 at 19:02:13
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There's a good chapter on it in one of the excellent Yusupov series of books for Quality Chess. From memory, the chapter contains some model games (from the White point of view) and a couple of pages of test positions.

It's not a critical test of the KID, but it's perfectly playable and a player well-versed in its ideas and finesses should do well with it. I suspect that in reply ...c5 systems are more combative than ...e5 systems.
  
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Re: Smyslov System (Bg5 and e3)
Reply #4 - 08/29/13 at 09:11:41
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ErictheRed wrote on 08/29/13 at 04:17:54:
Incidentally, I'd start with these two videos to see if this system interests you; even if it doesn't they're excellent lessons in middlegame play:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h80Mu4N6oYI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7RP0-lre_c


Thanks for posting this, very interesting games. I've always liked the Smyslov variation against the King's Indian, all the more so since I play 5.Bg5 against the Grunfeld, so its an all-in-one solution to both.

Its odd that this variation isn't covered well from White's side, in fact the only literature I know is the 'Fight the anti-King's Indian' type repertoires from Black's side. The only thing I spotted the other day is in one the the CBM downloads. GM Kuzmin has done an article on it, and fortunately it looks like its a multi-part series, so I'll be keeping an eye out for it.

http://chessbase-shop.com/en/products/cbm150_e61_kings_indian
  
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Re: Smyslov System (Bg5 and e3)
Reply #3 - 08/29/13 at 04:17:54
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I thought that Gallagher did a decent job covering this line (from the Black side) in one of his books, but I'm not sure which one it was.  It may have been Play the King's Indian or Beating the Anti-King's Indians.  Not much help for the White side, I'm afraid.

I always feel that this type of system can score very well in practice.  Essentially White is being as annoying as possible: in the King's Indian, White most often plays the moves d2-d4, c2-c4, and e2-e4, which leave the d4-square very weak.  Most of Black's counterplay (at least early on) comes by playing against this square, i.e. ...Bg7, ...e7-e5, and ...Nc6, for instance.  When White plays 6.e3, he takes away Black's standard source of counterplay.  Black now has to come up with something different than normal, and in a practical game without preparation he may not be up to the task.  I think that this is what accounts for White's good score in this line more than anything else.

On the other hand, it's good chess, if a bit simple.  Petrosian played some great games in this line as well as Smyslov.  If you're looking to do some work on your own, I'd suggest playing through and studying Akobian's games in a database; it helps to find a "weaker" grandmaster's games for study and ideas to adopt, as they aren't nearly as widely known.  And yes, my tongue was very much in my cheek; "weaker" GMs are still very strong and a lot can be gained from studying their games. 

Incidentally, I'd start with these two videos to see if this system interests you; even if it doesn't they're excellent lessons in middlegame play:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h80Mu4N6oYI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7RP0-lre_c
« Last Edit: 08/29/13 at 13:11:28 by ErictheRed »  
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Re: Smyslov System (Bg5 and e3)
Reply #2 - 08/29/13 at 03:14:58
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Bump.
Any resources?
  
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Re: Smyslov System (Bg5 and e3)
Reply #1 - 04/18/08 at 18:31:38
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I see that White's statistics do look quite good in the online NIC database (in the position after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. Nf3 0-0 5. Bg5 d6 6. e3, it appears that he scores from about 58% to 70% depending on Black's choice of subvariation).  But what about the performance ratings, i.e. could this result from the Smyslov being played disproportionately by higher-rated players as White against lower-rated players?

I can't recall any material of the type you're after, which seems rather curious.  The main thing I think of is John Watson's "Unconventional King's Indian" (which has about 11 pages on it, but thinks Black has various ways to equalize).  Oh, there was a book (from maybe 15-20 years ago, i.e. somewhat older than Watson's) by a Hungarian FM (Egon Varnusz; he wrote a book on Portisch's games some time ago) I believe called "Anti-Indian Systems" which might be a possibility.
  
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Smyslov System (Bg5 and e3)
04/18/08 at 17:36:43
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I am wondering if there is any good literature available on what is often known as the Smyslov Variation of the KID. Looking at it from White's perspective. (d4, c4, Nc3, Nf3, Bg5, e3 formation)

There is no dedicated book that I know of- so if anyone knows of any books that contain healthy references I would greatly appreciate it.

I happened to notice that the line has shockingly good statistics for white- and I wanted to burrow one level deeper to find out "why?"

Thanks,

John
  
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