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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3? (Read 38819 times)
ArKheiN
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #61 - 07/04/08 at 19:13:32
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I want to share you (the forumers) a game I just finished as Black in one of my "pet"line trying to show that Black may "force" draw in that difficult ending a pawn down. Sure, I would not be happy to play that position OTB, and I would have probably lost even against someone of my level with the time pressure. But on corr. Iam not afraid to reach that line and I like the challenge. Iam sure Markovitch will have a look at this game since it's one of the most challenging threat of the Schliemann with 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 etc. But that game is only a brick of the wall...

White: "Mr X"
Black : "ArKheiN"

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Nxe5 dxe4 7.Nxc6 Qg5 8.Qe2 Nf6 9.Nxa7 Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Nxd7 11.f4 Qc5 12.Nb5 Qxc2 13.d3 Bb4+ 14.Kf1 Qxe2+ 15.Kxe2 exd3+ 16.Kxd3 O-O-O 17.Kc4 Bc5 18.Re1 Rhe8 19.Rxe8 Rxe8 20.Bd2 Re2 21.Re1 Nb6+ 22.Kxc5 Rxd2 23.Re7 Rc2+ 24.Kd4 Rxb2 25.Rxc7+ Kd8 26.Rxg7 Rxb5 27.Rxb7 Rb2 28.g4 h6 29.Ke4 Kc8 30.Rh7 Rb4+ 31.Kf5 Nd5 32.Rxh6 Nxf4 33.g5 Nd5 34.a3 Rb3 35.Rh7 Rxa3 36.h4 Ne3+ 37.Ke4 Ng4 38.g6 Nf6+ 39.Kf4 Kd8 40.h5 Ra1 41.Kg5 Ne8 42.Kh6 Nd6 43.Rh8+ Ke7 1/2-1/2
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #60 - 07/04/08 at 06:31:26
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Your are right, strange that the GM didn't played that simple move where Black get only one pawn for the bishop... The only playable move is 11..Bb6, with a very exciting game for Black where it seems that Black can get a very strong attack and almost (or really?) a winning one (watch the game posted by Matemax on page 3 I think).
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #59 - 07/04/08 at 00:47:27
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[Event "ICC 120 0 u"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2008.07.03"]
[Round "-"]
[White "*GM_Ganguly"]
[Black "*GM_Khachiyan"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2729"]
[BlackElo "2568"]
[Opening "Ruy Lopez: Schliemann defense"]
[ECO "C63"]
[NIC "RL.06"]
[Time "16:04:02"]
[TimeControl "7200+0"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 f5 4. d3 fxe4 5. dxe4 Nf6 6. O-O Bc5 7. Qd3 d6 8.Qc4 Qe7 9. b4 Be6 10. Bxc6+ bxc6 11. Qa6 Bxb4 12. Qxc6+ Kf7 13. Ng5+ Kg6 14.Nxe6 Qxe6 15. Nd2 Bc5 16. Nb3 Qd7 17. Qa6 Nxe4 18. Qe2 d5 19. Nxc5 Nxc5 20.Qxe5 Rhe8 21. Qd4 Ne4 22. c4 Nf6 23. cxd5 Qxd5 24. Qc3 Re4 25. Qxc7 Rc4 26.Qg3+ Rg4 27. Qh3 Rb8 28. f3 Qc5+ 29. Kh1 Qb5 30. Bb2 Rb4 31. Bxf6 gxf6 32.
Rac1 Qf5 33. g4 Qg5 34. Rc7 Qh6 35. Qxh6+ Kxh6 36. Kg2 Rb2+ 37. Kg3 R8b7 38.Rc6 R7b6 39. Rc7 Rb7 40. Rxb7 Rxb7 41. Rc1 Rb6 42. h4 Ra6 43. Kf4 Rxa2 44.Rc6 Kg7 45. Rc7+ Kg8 46. Kf5 Ra3 47. f4 Ra5+ 48. Kxf6 Ra6+ 49. Kg5 {White wins} 1-0

Instead of 12.Qxc6+ does anybody know why the obvious 12.Qb7 does not win on the spot?

Toppy Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Matemax
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #58 - 07/03/08 at 11:37:12
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Strategy_Rules wrote on 07/03/08 at 10:17:43:
But isnt 6...d6 interesting from white's point of view if one intends to play 4.d3 ?

6...Bc5 is the principal move (develop a piece) - 6...d6 is passive and only a sideway.

If we dont know where the main road (6...Bc5) leads to we dont have to worry about the sideroad (6...d6).
  
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Strategy_Rules
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #57 - 07/03/08 at 10:17:43
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But isnt 6...d6 interesting from white's point of view if one intends to play 4.d3 ?
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #56 - 07/02/08 at 22:45:01
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Most people here are more interested about 6..Bc5 until they find it no playable anymore, which is not the case from the "known" analysis at the moment.
  
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Strategy_Rules
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #55 - 07/02/08 at 09:38:07
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Markovich, I do not feel offended ... I just hoped somebody found something strong against 6...d6 and post it here. Because I did not find anything really convincing after this move. If you are not interested about this move its ok, maybe somebody is.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #54 - 07/01/08 at 13:35:31
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Strategy_Rules wrote on 06/18/08 at 11:22:54:
Quote:
Well since you ask, I will again put forward my often-expressed view that 3...f5 is downright unsound, and not because of 4.d3.


After analysing 3...f5 for a long time I must agree that the Schliemann is completely unsound. Sorry to all Schliemann-lovers Smiley
Well, thats just my view and I dont mind if you do not believe me Wink
In my opinion: 4.Nc3 leads to a clear advantage for white, after 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Sf6 6.0-0 the best move is 6...d6, after 6...Bc5 black is very close to a lost position (by the way, not only the variation with Qd1-d3-c4 is strong ...  Cool ... )
The question why some very strong GMs failed to refute the Schliemann in their games against Radjabov can have many reasons.
Anyway, this does not mean that the Schliemann cannot be refuted (in the sense of clear advantage for white) of course.


The above was your post, which appears on page 3 of this thread, so far four pages in length.  The thread itself is by no means focussed only on 6 ...d6, but only 4.d3.  Your post is not exactly a request for info about 6...d6, and it mentions much else.  So I don't think that anyone here was impolite to address various aspects of your remark that interested him, without addressing your particular interest in 6...d6.   

You want the thread now to focus only on 6...d6 based on information that you are unwilling to share, and you seem to be offended that no one has followed. 

I don't know about others here, but I am not interested in discussing this move at any length before I understand what's so bad about 6...Bc5, a much more ambitious move which, leaving aside any question of its ultimate merit, accords much better with the spirit of Black's system.  I would not have posted at all to this thread if it's actual topic had been 6...d6.
  

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Strategy_Rules
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #53 - 07/01/08 at 11:22:04
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Yes , who has something against 6...d6 ....
  
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Matemax
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #52 - 06/30/08 at 19:53:11
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Shocked Who has what now private or not?  Huh
  
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Strategy_Rules
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #51 - 06/30/08 at 10:17:27
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"What's the point of coming to the forum with "I have private analysis that refutes 6...Bc5?"

Isnt that obvious ? I intended you to focus on the variation with 6...d6. But I (again) failed  Sad
  
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Matemax
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #50 - 06/20/08 at 12:54:01
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Quote:
What do people here suggest for white after 6...d6 in the 4.d3-variation ?

You should know the answer: "I have private analysis that refutes 6...d6"  Grin
  
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Markovich
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #49 - 06/20/08 at 11:13:35
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ArKheiN wrote on 06/19/08 at 23:09:59:
"First I can just say that in the variation with Bxc6 + Nxe5 black's compensation for the pawn is just insufficient. " How can you be so sure about that? My actual analysis tend to confirm that Black has sufficient compensation for the pawn. But I would't say "they have sufficient compensation for sure" because we can't be sure about that!


We will bandy words here forever unless Strategy Rules puts up some analysis.  What's the point of coming to the forum with "I have private analysis that refutes 6...Bc5?"  Yes, and I have private analysis that refutes the Queen's Gambit.
  

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ArKheiN
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #48 - 06/19/08 at 23:09:59
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"First I can just say that in the variation with Bxc6 + Nxe5 black's compensation for the pawn is just insufficient. " How can you be so sure about that? My actual analysis tend to confirm that Black has sufficient compensation for the pawn. But I would't say "they have sufficient compensation for sure" because we can't be sure about that!
  
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Strategy_Rules
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Re: Beating Radjabov in the Schliemann with d3?
Reply #47 - 06/19/08 at 14:19:13
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I did not say that white is winning after 6...Bc5, only that black is very close to a lost position. That can either mean that white achieves a clear advantage or a position which is in practice very very difficult to defend for black.
First I can just say that in the variation with Bxc6 + Nxe5 black's compensation for the pawn is just insufficient. Of course, if white do not play some more strong moves after Nxe5 he can get problems. But after some more precise moves of white black is really just a pawn down. There exist also a very dangerous idea in the Bg5+Nd5 variation for white, after which at least in an OTB game black's task to defend is almost impossible. That idea was actually proposed by a friend of me who is a GM. So I do not like to publish it here. But I agree that 4.Nc3 is stronger than 4.d3, because after 6...d6 instead of 6...Bc5 white's advantage seems to be not so big like after 4.Nc3. What do people here suggest for white after 6...d6 in the 4.d3-variation ?
  
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